Help with cam choice for magnum 360 please

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octanejunkie said:
Will read and digest these replies later, but as a quick aside, I have been speaking with the eBay seller ezcondition (kenneth) that recuts roller cams. He can make me a 286/296 duration cam with .480/.480 @1.5 on a 110 LSA - assuming 106 ILC, that would be an 8.3x DCR cam with .512 lift at 1.6:1

How does that sound for $120 delivered to my door?
Click to expand...

That sounds like a deal'n a'half!\\:D/
 
Just to be clear, it is a 286/296 adv, 227/234 @ .050 on a 110 LSA with .480/.480 lift at 1.5 (512/.512 lift at 1.6)

My only reservation is that without knowing the valve timing and intake lobe center (assumed at 106) do I really know what I am getting and is it worth risking $120?

The other issue is that this being a regrind and small base, what length pushrods will I need? I want to make sure I am ready to read the cam if i order it as I only have 14 days to inspect and return.

BTW, I will be running headers
 
TurdFerguson said:
All the testing shows that the magnum heads flow close to a stock 2.02 LA head, meanwhile the exhaust flows a good 10 cfm more in 35-40% of the lift range, and thats with out a pipe on the exhaust. So add the pipe which typically picks up 8-12 cfm throughout the range and then consider the intake port was flowed without a manifold/intake which typically lowers the amount intake cfm=Now you have a chevrolet senario where you can have over scavenging effect that in the worst cases pulls the incoming charge right out the exhaust leading to the 'chevrolet stink' [hence why chevy was the 1st to mandate smog pumps] and poor milage. This can be 'camd' around.
Hey..It won't make or break the combo but I am just trying to help and do this a lil diff than most with confidence that it will run better than most.
Say he doesn't use headers, then skip the split pattern cam since the exh manifolds will cork it anyway.
Click to expand...

FWIW, the engine in my chevy truck stinks like you describe. I think it's due to the 61 degrees of overlap in my 280/290 cam on a 112, 214/224 @ .050 which has .448/.465 lift at 1.5

Wanna make sure I don't replicate that scenario on another motor!
 
One thing to keep in mind is with the poor lifter to pushrod angle inherent to a SB Mopar you loose .020-.025" lift even with perfect geometry. I always heard that and last year I did a mock up with a couple different cams to see if it is correct and it is. My test used 2 different hydraulic cams with the lifter blocked so as not to loose any lift from compressing it. With roller cams the lifter to pushrod angle is even worse so you'll loose a little more. You really should measure your heads to see how much lift YOUR heads will accept as manufacturing tolerances vary. Turd might measure his at .500 lift max and yours may be .480 max or they might be .520 max. Can go either way. No matter what cam you use you should measure to determine what length pushrods you need because again manufacturing tolerances vary so much there is no way anyone can say that a certain pushrod length is the correct length. Another thing I noticed you mentioned using 1.5 rockers on your heads. The only way you can do that is to convert it over to Chevy style stud and ball rockers because all rocker arms made for Chrysler magnum heads are 1.6 or 1.7 ratio. At least all I ever saw advertised were and I went through that last year trying to find some 1.5 rockers for a set of magnum heads. They didn't exist then. I have been burned a couple times on E-bay so I'd be leary of ordering a cam from someone there. If the place is a legit business they should sell to you direct. If I were interested in the cam like you are I'd e-mail him and ask about buying it direct. Paying a business with a credit card generally gives you protection that you don't get on e-bay. E-bay claims you get protection through PayPal but don't believe it. I bought a part from a guy and payed with PayPal and the guy never sent the part and PayPal tried to collect it from him but he drained his account before they could collect so I was told tough luck.
 
I measured the retainer to seal clearance today and found the contacted at .524 lift -int @1.66 installed, however some exhausts run less than the intake might, fi..I measured some stock '974' heads I have and found .544 -int @1.68 & exhaust .444 @ 1.55 installed
fwiw
 
fishy68 said:
One thing to keep in mind is with the poor lifter to pushrod angle inherent to a SB Mopar you loose .020-.025" lift even with perfect geometry. I always heard that and last year I did a mock up with a couple different cams to see if it is correct and it is. My test used 2 different hydraulic cams with the lifter blocked so as not to loose any lift from compressing it. With roller cams the lifter to pushrod angle is even worse so you'll loose a little more. You really should measure your heads to see how much lift YOUR heads will accept as manufacturing tolerances vary. Turd might measure his at .500 lift max and yours may be .480 max or they might be .520 max. Can go either way. No matter what cam you use you should measure to determine what length pushrods you need because again manufacturing tolerances vary so much there is no way anyone can say that a certain pushrod length is the correct length.
Click to expand...
I have a preliminary measurement from my shop that cleaned up the heads indicating a .570 lift - IIRC, I just can't find that slip of paper at the moment, but the easiest thing to do would be to re-measure them, both exhaust and intake.

As far as pushrod length goes, get me in the ballpark please. Stock length is 7.500 I believe? I understand I will need to check myself to be sure, but with a small base cam, how much longer than stock would I need to be, approximately? I at least want to order the right length adjustable pushrods so I can check/read the cam when I order it.


fishy68 said:
Another thing I noticed you mentioned using 1.5 rockers on your heads. The only way you can do that is to convert it over to Chevy style stud and ball rockers because all rocker arms made for Chrysler magnum heads are 1.6 or 1.7 ratio. At least all I ever saw advertised were and I went through that last year trying to find some 1.5 rockers for a set of magnum heads. They didn't exist then.
Click to expand...

I am probably going to stick wtih the stock rocker setup for now. I do like the idea of converting over to an adjustable valvetrain, my buddy with a set of GT40 ford heads has the same pedestal setup as my magnum heads and I found these Crane stud/guideplate conversion kit for him http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRN-36655-2/ - looks pretty trick for $128 all in. Less than the machine work a shop would charge to drill and tap to 3/8 or 7/16 stud I imagine. I could then run a set of chevy self aligning rockers in either ratio, but that is not my plan from the get go.

fishy68 said:
I have been burned a couple times on E-bay so I'd be leary of ordering a cam from someone there. If the place is a legit business they should sell to you direct. If I were interested in the cam like you are I'd e-mail him and ask about buying it direct. Paying a business with a credit card generally gives you protection that you don't get on e-bay. E-bay claims you get protection through PayPal but don't believe it. I bought a part from a guy and payed with PayPal and the guy never sent the part and PayPal tried to collect it from him but he drained his account before they could collect so I was told tough luck.
Click to expand...

I am also always leery of ebay but this guy comes recommended by a FABO member and has good feedback and had extended his 7 day inspection/return period to 14 days for me - which is why I want to get all my ducks in a row before I get the cam. I want to be ready to drop it in, degree it, read it, check lift, etc and not wait for summit or jegs to ship something - I like the price, I like his feedback, I like his policy and the numbers I get on Pat Kelly's calc look perfect for me - so I'll give it a shot; I just want to be prepared and ready.

A note on ebay/paypal. Your payment method, short of a bank transfer, can be protected through your credit card's fraud protection program if you use a CC to pay PayPal I believe. This particular seller offers a full refund policy and has a 320+ rating and is 97.7% positive, I read all the negatives he got, they were from dumb-sounding buyers with almost bogus complaints. He also takes Money Orders, so if you use a USPS MO you have the Feds to behind you (as much good as that is at the rate they move) - I'll take a chance if I can return the cam and get my money back if there is a problem.

TurdFerguson said:
I measured the retainer to seal clearance today and found the contacted at .524 lift -int @1.66 installed, however some exhausts run less than the intake might, fi..I measured some stock '974' heads I have and found .544 -int @1.68 & exhaust .444 @ 1.55 installed
Click to expand...

I will re-measure my heads and check the retainer to seal clearance as well as overall lift and coil bind height.

Quick Question : what valve spring would/should I use with the regrind cam in question assuming a .480-.512 lift?
 
octanejunkie said:
Quick Question : what valve spring would/should I use with the regrind cam in question assuming a .480-.512 lift?
Click to expand...




http://www.compperformancegroupstor...ore_Code=CC&Screen=PROD&Product_Code=26995-16

They use these with the same/simular lift hyd roller, and they fit the mag heads being that they are beehives.
Whats funny is they are saying a max .500 lift...meanwhile the install at 1.7 and coil bind @ 1.060...so anyhow, .540 lift is about all these will handle while maintaining a .100 from/before coil bind.
 
TurdFerguson said:
[/B]


http://www.compperformancegroupstor...ore_Code=CC&Screen=PROD&Product_Code=26995-16

They use these with the same/simular lift hyd roller, and they fit the mag heads being that they are beehives.
Whats funny is they are saying a max .500 lift...meanwhile the install at 1.7 and coil bind @ 1.060...so anyhow, .540 lift is about all these will handle while maintaining a .100 from/before coil bind.
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting that TF. Man, those are pricey! I found a GM equivalent for like $60 a set. I'll post the link when I get home tonight.

I fishy is right, I may only net out at sub .500 lift, I'll know when I mock it up
 
yes.. they are pretty ridiculous with the price.lol

Post the part number of the $60 springs you've found, it'll help others later on.
 
I've heard alot of good things about the ebay grinds, with that being said I don't have any experience with them personally.

On another note did you consider any of the MP cam's? Like they use in the 360/408 crate motors, there are 3 or 4 different ones from stock to max lift(501/510).

thats what I'm using in my magnum....just a thought, sorry just to jump in.
 
octanejunkie said:
I have a preliminary measurement from my shop that cleaned up the heads indicating a .570 lift - IIRC, I just can't find that slip of paper at the moment, but the easiest thing to do would be to re-measure them, both exhaust and intake.

Is that with the valve seal installed? Remember that makes a big difference. If so your probably good to go.
Click to expand...
As far as pushrod length goes, get me in the ballpark please. Stock length is 7.500 I believe? I understand I will need to check myself to be sure, but with a small base cam, how much longer than stock would I need to be, approximately? I at least want to order the right length adjustable pushrods so I can check/read the cam when I order it.

There's really no way I could guess what length pushrods you need because I have no idea how much the grinder is taking the base down. Maybe you can call him and pick his brain to see how much he grinds it down? Whatever he takes off you will need to add to the length of what you think the stock length is to get you close. I thought 7.625 is the stock length but I may be wrong as you said it's 7.5"... An example would be if he says he takes .100" off the base add .100" to the stock length of 7.5" and you come up with 7.6" so you get an adjustable pushrod that covers that size + and - .25~.5" and also decide on what you want to do for rockers (the link to the crane conversion looks decent) and get them (or use the stockers if you wish) and the adjustable pushrod so your ready when the new cam arrives and you can degree it in, set a head on with the gasket and torque it down and install rockers at all 4 corners and measure the pushrod length at all corners and average it out. You can then order what pushrods you need. Summit is fast about sending stuff out so you should have your new pushrods within 3 business days if they have them in stock. If they don't have what you need you can check around. Maybe JEGS might have them.
Click to expand...
I am probably going to stick wtih the stock rocker setup for now. I do like the idea of converting over to an adjustable valvetrain, my buddy with a set of GT40 ford heads has the same pedestal setup as my magnum heads and I found these Crane stud/guideplate conversion kit for him http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRN-36655-2/ - looks pretty trick for $128 all in. Less than the machine work a shop would charge to drill and tap to 3/8 or 7/16 stud I imagine. I could then run a set of chevy self aligning rockers in either ratio, but that is not my plan from the get go.



I am also always leery of ebay but this guy comes recommended by a FABO member and has good feedback and had extended his 7 day inspection/return period to 14 days for me - which is why I want to get all my ducks in a row before I get the cam. I want to be ready to drop it in, degree it, read it, check lift, etc and not wait for summit or jegs to ship something - I like the price, I like his feedback, I like his policy and the numbers I get on Pat Kelly's calc look perfect for me - so I'll give it a shot; I just want to be prepared and ready.

Sounds like he's ok then.
Click to expand...
A note on ebay/paypal. Your payment method, short of a bank transfer, can be protected through your credit card's fraud protection program if you use a CC to pay PayPal I believe. This particular seller offers a full refund policy and has a 320+ rating and is 97.7% positive, I read all the negatives he got, they were from dumb-sounding buyers with almost bogus complaints. He also takes Money Orders, so if you use a USPS MO you have the Feds to behind you (as much good as that is at the rate they move) - I'll take a chance if I can return the cam and get my money back if there is a problem.

Unfortunately even that isn't total protection. Why you ask? Because to buy and sell on E-bay you have to sign up for PayPal, right? PayPal requires you to give them a bank account number and they verify it's good. You can still pay for your purchase with your credit card and say something happens that you file a fraud case with your credit card you may get your money back from the credit card co. but PayPal can go into your bank account without your permission and take the money right back. Just sayin'
Click to expand...
I will re-measure my heads and check the retainer to seal clearance as well as overall lift and coil bind height.

Quick Question : what valve spring would/should I use with the regrind cam in question assuming a .480-.512 lift?
Click to expand...

One thing you must remember is the spring needs to be matched to the cam. Lift is only one part of the equation. The cam grinder should be able to tell you what pressures it needs to be on the seat and open.
 
TurdFerguson said:
yes.. they are pretty ridiculous with the price.lol

Post the part number of the $60 springs you've found, it'll help others later on.
Click to expand...

On a Chevy board I was looking for springs for a vortec application, these were suggested as comp beehive-alternative springs, GM PN 12499224
- 90 lbs. @ 1.8 in.
- 295 lbs @ 1.250 in.,
- .570 in. Maximum Lift,
- LS6/LS2, Set of 16
- Outside Diameter of Outer Spring (in)1.290 in.
- Coil Bind Height (in)1.085 in.
- Damper Spring Included No
- Spring Rate (lbs/in)375 lbs./in.
- Valve Spring Style Standard

Summit Sells them for $68 http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-12499224/

Scoggin-Dickey has them for $57 http://sdparts.com/details/gm-performance-parts/12499224
 
fishy68 said:
One thing you must remember is the spring needs to be matched to the cam. Lift is only one part of the equation. The cam grinder should be able to tell you what pressures it needs to be on the seat and open.
Click to expand...

Thanks fishy - I will ask the seller to inquire of the grinder both how much they grind off the cams, approximately, and what spring they recommend, both seat and open pressure
 
72 slopar said:
I've heard alot of good things about the ebay grinds, with that being said I don't have any experience with them personally.

On another note did you consider any of the MP cam's? Like they use in the 360/408 crate motors, there are 3 or 4 different ones from stock to max lift(501/510).

thats what I'm using in my magnum....just a thought, sorry just to jump in.
Click to expand...

Ironically I sold a MP cam kit new and uninstalled that came w this motor, I'm pretty focused on a roller at this point! :evil1:
 
octanejunkie said:
On a Chevy board I was looking for springs for a vortec application, these were suggested as comp beehive-alternative springs, GM PN 12499224
- 90 lbs. @ 1.8 in.
- 295 lbs @ 1.250 in.,
- .570 in. Maximum Lift,
- LS6/LS2, Set of 16
- Outside Diameter of Outer Spring (in)1.290 in.
- Coil Bind Height (in)1.085 in.
- Damper Spring Included No
- Spring Rate (lbs/in)375 lbs./in.
- Valve Spring Style Standard

Summit Sells them for $68 http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-12499224/

Scoggin-Dickey has them for $57 http://sdparts.com/details/gm-performance-parts/12499224
Click to expand...

You need to talk to the machinist about your heads and where they are now, cause 1.80 installed height is gonna take some work=pop up retainers/cut down spring pad/sunk valves ...to get from 1.62 or whatever they are now , to 1.80. also 97 lbs sounds a lil weak for seat psi, even on a hyd roller.
The rate isn't bad though, maybe put them in at a more obtainable and better seat psi @ 1.75 or less.
And you should look at the psi per increase in lift between the 2 springs, one might pick up 30 psi per .100 while the other is more or less, you need to have just enough psi to control the valve/lifter and no more, otherwise you're just eating up power and xcellerating the lobe wear for no reason.

just off the top of my head...
 
I was also looking at the GM springs at one point but I'm definitely not interested in any machine work. The Hughes retainers with their springs(no machine work) will add .125 clearance between the bottom of the retainer and the top of the valve guide. Hughes single springs and retainers are about 165 bucks and are good for .550 lift.
 
dustoff440 said:
I was also looking at the GM springs at one point but I'm definitely not interested in any machine work. The Hughes retainers with their springs(no machine work) will add .125 clearance between the bottom of the retainer and the top of the valve guide. Hughes single springs and retainers are about 165 bucks and are good for .550 lift.
Click to expand...

Thanks for this info, but I cannot find the springs and retainers for $165 on hughes site, do you have the part numbers handy?

On second glance, are they #1102 or 1110? Both these show .550 lift-capable with different installed heights and pressures, both coil bind @ .620 lift.
1102 - 135# @ 1.750' INSTALLED 315# @ .550' LIFT (300# @ .500" lift)
1110 - 120# @ 1.660' INSTALLED 310# @ .550' LIFT (300# @ .500" lift)

Retainers are #1278
Keepers are #1300

Totals right at $164.40 for 16 springs, retainers and keepers - just like the man said

Question - Are new retainers and keepers required for either of these springs or will the stock ones work?
 
octanejunkie said:
Thanks for this info, but I cannot find the springs and retainers for $165 on hughes site, do you have the part numbers handy?

On second glance, are they #1102 or 1110? Both these show .550 lift-capable with different installed heights and pressures, both coil bind @ .620 lift.
1102 - 135# @ 1.750' INSTALLED 315# @ .550' LIFT (300# @ .500" lift)
1110 - 120# @ 1.660' INSTALLED 310# @ .550' LIFT (300# @ .500" lift)

Retainers are #1278
Keepers are #1300

Totals right at $164.40 for 16 springs, retainers and keepers - just like the man said

Question - Are new retainers and keepers required for either of these springs or will the stock ones work?
Click to expand...

. You want their retainer for guaranteed additional clearance . Especially if your going to put a really healthy cam in later or the cam you chose already has minimal clearance.. Keepers.....cheap insurance. You can go with a cam up to .650 with the clearance their retainers will provide.
 
dustoff440 said:
. You want their retainer for guaranteed additional clearance . Especially if your going to put a really healthy cam in later or the cam you chose already has minimal clearance.. Keepers.....cheap insurance. You can go with a cam up to .650 with the clearance their retainers will provide.
Click to expand...

Cool, thanks!

If I understand their note on the retainers, these add .125 height?

Also, did I get all the right part numbers?
 
octanejunkie said:
It's been a while since I've been active here, or working on my mopar project but here is a refresher.

So I am building a '99 Magnum 360 motor for a 71 Scamp. Car supposedly has a "built" 727 3-speed and a stock 7.25" rear end. I have a posi carrier with 2.96 gears to drop in place of the 2.76 peg leg in there now. I also have an 8-3/4" rear end I will build up in the future.

Motor is .030 over, has flat top pistons with 5cc valve reliefs, and has been zero-decked - ready to assemble, just need to pick a cam. Static compression will be around 10.6:1. Though this is a roller block and I have the spider, I don't have the roller lifters, and considering the cost of a roller cam, I was thinking about staying flat tappet hydraulic.

Following the lead from several members here, I was going to us the Comp XE268H cam, but I was also looking at the Lunati 60402 voodoo cam. I realize the 60402 is a bit smaller than the XE268H and is actually closer to the XS262H cam, but I wonder how much cam I really need...

The 60402 Specs are
262/268 Advertised Duration
220/226 duration at .050
112 LSA, 108 ICL is 4 degrees adv
.475/.494 lift at valve
INT opens at 2, closes at 38
EXT opens at 49, closes at -3

The XE268H Specs are
268/280 Advertised Duration
224/230 duration at .050
110 LSA, 106 ICL is 4 degrees adv
.477/.480 lift at valve
INT opens at 28, closes at 60
EXT opens at 74, closes at 26
-values at .006" lift

From what I have read on other boards, the voodoo cams seem to be a evolution in development of the comp grinds and can be more gentle on the valve train. I am interested in longevity and "best fit" for the car, plus the voodoo cam seems a bit tamer on a 112 LSA.

The car will honestly be a weekend driver and I will be looking for an OD trans at some point to add some fwy economy, but for now, it's just a fun runner that I don't want to go broke filling the tank on.

Looking for advice and opinions please.
Click to expand...

With that much compression you need at least 236@ .050 on a 110lca. You need to keep cranking compression around 180 or so to be pump gas compatable.
I would need to know more about the engine and intake/exhaust but you need more cam for that compression.
Brian
 
ou812 said:
With that much compression you need at least 236@ .050 on a 110lca. You need to keep cranking compression around 180 or so to be pump gas compatable.
I would need to know more about the engine and intake/exhaust but you need more cam for that compression.
Brian
Click to expand...

Thanks for your reply, I've heard that about 236 @ .050" before somewhere... ;)

Intake will be an air gap rpm with 650 carb, on hand now, fuel injection in the future. Exhaust will be Hooker Super Comp headers on an existing 2.5" X-pipe system, all the way to the tail pipe, with dual Flowmasters and layson rectangular tips.

Looking at a re-grind roller cam and can get the duration to be up around 230 no problem. What do you think about a bit more intake than exhaust lift Brian?

Also, to keep cranking compression lower, should I be looking at cams with higher overlap?
 
octanejunkie said:
Thanks for your reply, I've heard that about 236 @ .050" before somewhere... ;)

Intake will be an air gap rpm with 650 carb, on hand now, fuel injection in the future. Exhaust will be Hooker Super Comp headers on an existing 2.5" X-pipe system, all the way to the tail pipe, with dual Flowmasters and layson rectangular tips.

Looking at a re-grind roller cam and can get the duration to be up around 230 no problem. What do you think about a bit more intake than exhaust lift Brian?

Also, to keep cranking compression lower, should I be looking at cams with higher overlap?
Click to expand...

I would not regrind the factory cam. I would start with a new core so you get the grind you need. I use as much lift as I can get in every build I do.
 
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