Home Electrical Question About a GFCI Outlet

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harrisonm

harrisonm

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First let me say that I am fairly good with electrical stuff. I wired my own basement, and I have replaced a lot of GFCI outlets. I totally understand how they work and what they do. I went to my daughter's house today because she thought she might have two bad switches in a basement bedroom. Both switches control a ceiling fan, one for the light and one for the fan. I thought it was highly unlikely that both switches failed at the same time. Maybe the ceiling fan failed? Then I looked in the attached powder room and noticed there was a GFCI outlet that had popped and would not reset. Using my multi meter, I found that the bottom socket had 120 volts and the top had 0. So I thought that maybe the ceiling fan was downstream from the bad GFCI outlet. I found the appropriate circuit breaker and pulled out the GFCI outlet. I found something very strange. The back of the outlet had 8 holes for wires. 4 line holes on the bottom (and 4 on the top). I expected to see two wires going into the bottom (line) and two coming out of the top (load). Instead, all four were attached to the bottom. So the way the outlet was wired, it was like the two white wires were tied together with a wire nut, and the same for the two black wires. That kind of defeats the purpose of a GFCI outlet doesn't it? But since the wires going into the bottom were literally tied together, I would think that power had to be passing through the outlet. I had to leave, so I didn't get a chance to test that. I'll get back there in a few days and test to ensure the power if passing through the wires. So I'll replace the GFCI outlet, but I don't think that will fix my problem. Maybe the fan is bad.
 
If I understand your description, without pix, it's using gfi as a junction in a series circuit. If the gfi trips, everything in the circuit is dead.

I would try hooking the wires up in a parallel circuit, by hooking the white wires together, and the black together, then install a pigtail to wire in the gfi. This way, if the gfi trips, it doesn't kill power anywhere else.

Please note, if there are other outlets next to sink besides gfi, they need to be wired into the top of gfi. This allows gfi to act as a circuit breaker, and keeps the auxillary outlet in series with the gfi.
 
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harrisonm said:
First let me say that I am fairly good with electrical stuff. I wired my own basement, and I have replaced a lot of GFCI outlets. I totally understand how they work and what they do. I went to my daughter's house today because she thought she might have two bad switches in a basement bedroom. Both switches control a ceiling fan, one for the light and one for the fan. I thought it was highly unlikely that both switches failed at the same time. Maybe the ceiling fan failed? Then I looked in the attached powder room and noticed there was a GFCI outlet that had popped and would not reset. Using my multi meter, I found that the bottom socket had 120 volts and the top had 0. So I thought that maybe the ceiling fan was downstream from the bad GFCI outlet. I found the appropriate circuit breaker and pulled out the GFCI outlet. I found something very strange. The back of the outlet had 8 holes for wires. 4 line holes on the bottom (and 4 on the top). I expected to see two wires going into the bottom (line) and two coming out of the top (load). Instead, all four were attached to the bottom. So the way the outlet was wired, it was like the two white wires were tied together with a wire nut, and the same for the two black wires. That kind of defeats the purpose of a GFCI outlet doesn't it? But since the wires going into the bottom were literally tied together, I would think that power had to be passing through the outlet. I had to leave, so I didn't get a chance to test that. I'll get back there in a few days and test to ensure the power if passing through the wires. So I'll replace the GFCI outlet, but I don't think that will fix my problem. Maybe the fan is bad.
Click to expand...
In my experience, if a guy has to ask that many questions about something that can kill you, you probably shouldn't be messing around with it.

BTW....I am an Electrician, and you lost me at 'wire nuts'. Yes, I know what they are, and would never use them on an AC circuit above 24 Volts, even if I could buy them here.
 
harrisonm said:
...Then I looked in the attached powder room and noticed there was a GFCI.......
Click to expand...
IMO, you might check all outlets and light fixtures that may be on that line. I found two baths and my patio light on the same GFCI.
 
Basically a GFCI should be marked "line" and "load." The line is incoming power, and the load goes to additional receptacles protected by the initial device.

I would think that such things as a fan, branched off the same circuit, should not be on the gfci, but should be spliced off the load wiring to the gfci
 
kiwigtx said:
In my experience, if a guy has to ask that many questions about something that can kill you, you probably shouldn't be messing around with it.

BTW....I am an Electrician, and you lost me at 'wire nuts'. Yes, I know what they are, and would never use them on an AC circuit about 24 Volts, even if I could buy them here.
Click to expand...
In america, wire nuts on AC is code and every where. As long as in a box......
 
I'm not an electrician, but I used to be "darn near." I used to install and mostly service HVAC/R. I've seen numerous wire nuts loose or falling off. HERE IS A STORY THAT EVEN NOW makes my hair stand up

Back in the 80's--early 90's a friend of my boss called, "no heat." They had just bought a big ol OLD 2-3 story with an added dug basement, poured decades after the house was built. They had bought the house and were doing a "live in remodel." I went over to see what and did not take me long to find out that THE WIRE NUT IN THE FURNACE SWITCHBOX for the NEUTRAL was loose, and caused the furnace to stop

I remade the connection and fired it up. IT WOULD NOT VENT. This had a VERY tall chimney with a floor level cleanout. I took off the vent connector and the trap from floor to vent connector WAS FULL OF SOOT and had built up and plugged the VENT!!!!

It is well known that in houses that have previously been coal, wood, or even oil, and after converted to gas , that the gas acts as a detergent and eventually sluffs the soot off in the chimney.

HERE IT COMES!!!!

The folks had just roughed in bedrooms in the basement and were PLANNING ON MOVING THE CHILDREN down there over the weekend!!!

No CO detector!!!
Old furnance had no vent spill switch!!! (We added one)--which would have shut down furnace if not venting

THE ONLY THING THAT SAVED THREE KIDS was a LOOSE WIRE NUT
 
My dad an electrician for many years wasn’t a big fan of wire nuts. If he was forced to use them he properly taped them with black electrical tape as insurance against vibration.
 
Marrettes and elec tape is common here.
Gfci in upstairs bathroom kept tripping as the gfi was hooked to kitchen circuit(microwave) lol. My biggest complaint was trying to get all the wires in the box. Gfi should be in a physically larger box.
 
4spdragtop said:
Marrettes and elec tape is common here.
Gfci in upstairs bathroom kept tripping as the gfi was hooked to kitchen circuit(microwave) lol. My biggest complaint was trying to get all the wires in the box. Gfi should be in a physically larger box.
Click to expand...
Marrettes----Steve, LOLOL, I had to look that up
Click to expand...
 
4spdragtop said:
Marrettes and elec tape is common here.
Gfci in upstairs bathroom kept tripping as the gfi was hooked to kitchen circuit(microwave) lol. My biggest complaint was trying to get all the wires in the box. Gfi should be in a physically larger box.
Click to expand...
We had the same issue with our porch light one time. Called an electrician and he traced it to a bad GFCI in our upstairs bathroom. Still don't understand why a porch light on a covered porch needs GFCI protection, never mind there are 2 or 3 DOWNSTAIRS GFCI outlets it could have been tied into... f*****g "professional builders" trying to save $5 on a $100,000 house...
 
67Dart273 said:
I'm not an electrician, but I used to be "darn near." I used to install and mostly service HVAC/R. I've seen numerous wire nuts loose or falling off. HERE IS A STORY THAT EVEN NOW makes my hair stand up

Back in the 80's--early 90's a friend of my boss called, "no heat." They had just bought a big ol OLD 2-3 story with an added dug basement, poured decades after the house was built. They had bought the house and were doing a "live in remodel." I went over to see what and did not take me long to find out that THE WIRE NUT IN THE FURNACE SWITCHBOX for the NEUTRAL was loose, and caused the furnace to stop

I remade the connection and fired it up. IT WOULD NOT VENT. This had a VERY tall chimney with a floor level cleanout. I took off the vent connector and the trap from floor to vent connector WAS FULL OF SOOT and had built up and plugged the VENT!!!!

It is well known that in houses that have previously been coal, wood, or even oil, and after converted to gas , that the gas acts as a detergent and eventually sluffs the soot off in the chimney.

HERE IT COMES!!!!

The folks had just roughed in bedrooms in the basement and were PLANNING ON MOVING THE CHILDREN down there over the weekend!!!

No CO detector!!!
Old furnance had no vent spill switch!!! (We added one)--which would have shut down furnace if not venting

THE ONLY THING THAT SAVED THREE KIDS was a LOOSE WIRE NUT
Click to expand...
I can't remember how many times I red tagged situations where someone turned the mechanical room into a bedroom.
 
kiwigtx said:
In my experience, if a guy has to ask that many questions about something that can kill you, you probably shouldn't be messing around with it.

BTW....I am an Electrician, and you lost me at 'wire nuts'. Yes, I know what they are, and would never use them on an AC circuit above 24 Volts, even if I could buy them here.
Click to expand...
Doesn't electricity flow the other direction down there? :rofl:
 
I would lose electricity on my outside outlet on my motorhome. It took me awhile to figure out the ground fault in my bathroom was going into fault from vibration going down the road. Easy fix after I figured out to reset it when I got parked at the racetrack. Lol
 
kiwigtx said:
Yes it does. :lol:

But we can change direction easily just by standing on the other side of the cable.
Click to expand...
Not wanting to change the subject at all.....but you have a 50/50 chance of getting a three-phase motor to run the right way.
I did a job last month where I got 4 out of 4 the right way first time up. I bought a lottery ticket after that. :lol:



:rofl:
 
kiwigtx said:
Not wanting to change the subject at all.....but you have a 50/50 chance of getting a three-phase motor to run the right way.
I did a job last month where I got 4 out of 4 the right way first time up. I bought a lottery ticket after that. :lol:



:rofl:
Click to expand...

I don't know if your being serious, but all you need is a phase detector. I once got involved in saving a 250hp shaft drive, Dunham Bush R12 compressor out of a mine, where the mine guys had bypassed most of the safeties to try and keep it on line, then when they moved the machine, they ended up running it backwards because the onboard phase protector was bypassed, and tore up the compressor
 
I also once saved my boss's *** in a unique deal. He had bought a refrigerated trailer "junker" with a diesel/ electric refer unit. The diesel would run, the electric drive motor would not. This was a double shaft, dual voltage, 240/ 460V 3 phase motor that someone had been into , trying to repair/ rewind it. It blew fuses and would not run

The diesel drove one end of the shaft, the other end drove the compressor. "I forget" there was some sort of clutch to disconnect the diesel.

I tore it down, separated all the windings terminals, and megger'd the thing. No problem, they looked great, not over heated. Cleaned it up and re- meggered it, and finally decided, it was simply TERMINATED WRONG. Since there are six windings, this means that one set might have been out of phase with the other three. HOW IN HELL TO FIND OUT?

I put it back together, and connected one set of three up so it ran, then simply took 2 220V lamps and "tried" each winding to the others until I found a connection where the lamps were dim. This shows the trial winding was in phase with that connection.

I finished up just as the boss got back from an errand. Told him, "there's nothing wrong with it" and he looks at me like I was nuts LOLOL
 
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