Looks like no engine, transmission, interior or glass.
Hotchkis leaf issue, sits like 4x4.
- Thread starter khuebner250
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autoxcuda
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Yes. But at the fast track at Willow the rear bar is to much rear roll couple (too loose) for high speed turns.
And too loose for the lump at the top of the kink in the backstretch.
oi81b4uu812b4
Well-Known Member
Ok, I have put Hotchkis leafs on my mini-tubbed Duster and I can see a few areas that I can see people can mess up easily and it's usually caused from binding up the springs. The angle your rear shackle makes should be 90 degrees from a line drawn threw the front and rear spring eyes.
First;
My Hotchkis Springs dropped about an 1" in less than a year. Didn't bother me. I wanted it lower anyway. I used the top hole in the front US Car Tool perch and set the pinion angle at 2 1/2 degrees there. (That way the bottom hole gave me 4 1/2 degrees if I needed it at the drag strip). Let your suspension settle a bit on the ground. And some stuff just has to be worn in a little to get a final ride height. I found that the ride height difference between the top and bottom holes in the US Cartool front perches, only changed ride height by just under 1-1/4" .
Second;
The front leaf binding strap won't clear the front spring relocate boxes and will make contact. It is an area that needs to be modified to work usually to get that strap to fit inside the US Car tool front perch. This is where it is tempting to squish the front leaf strap in a little more so it will fit inside the spring relocate boxes. Problem is that too much squish and the leaf springs will start binding between the leafs. Same thing with the after market replacement straps. If they are on too tight, they will bind and give the high riding look until you loosen or wear them in. If you take the straps off some, you can grease between the leafs so they can move a bit.
Third;
To run the Hotchkis leafs in the US Car Tool front perches, I had to install different poly front bushings for the larger bolt size. The new poly bushings fit tight until they get broken in. Plus the new bushings had a big shoulder on them and made more contact with the perch. Install all these bushings with a ton of lube. Lube the inside ID and OD of the bushings and sleeves and the side of the bushing shoulders. Lube everything up like it's your first day in prison. If you can't see lube coming out while assembling your suspension. And it's not on every tool used, you didn't have enough lube.
Forth;
Worst case scenario go buy adjustable lowering blocks from AFCO or Allstar.
First;
My Hotchkis Springs dropped about an 1" in less than a year. Didn't bother me. I wanted it lower anyway. I used the top hole in the front US Car Tool perch and set the pinion angle at 2 1/2 degrees there. (That way the bottom hole gave me 4 1/2 degrees if I needed it at the drag strip). Let your suspension settle a bit on the ground. And some stuff just has to be worn in a little to get a final ride height. I found that the ride height difference between the top and bottom holes in the US Cartool front perches, only changed ride height by just under 1-1/4" .
Second;
The front leaf binding strap won't clear the front spring relocate boxes and will make contact. It is an area that needs to be modified to work usually to get that strap to fit inside the US Car tool front perch. This is where it is tempting to squish the front leaf strap in a little more so it will fit inside the spring relocate boxes. Problem is that too much squish and the leaf springs will start binding between the leafs. Same thing with the after market replacement straps. If they are on too tight, they will bind and give the high riding look until you loosen or wear them in. If you take the straps off some, you can grease between the leafs so they can move a bit.
Third;
To run the Hotchkis leafs in the US Car Tool front perches, I had to install different poly front bushings for the larger bolt size. The new poly bushings fit tight until they get broken in. Plus the new bushings had a big shoulder on them and made more contact with the perch. Install all these bushings with a ton of lube. Lube the inside ID and OD of the bushings and sleeves and the side of the bushing shoulders. Lube everything up like it's your first day in prison. If you can't see lube coming out while assembling your suspension. And it's not on every tool used, you didn't have enough lube.
Forth;
Worst case scenario go buy adjustable lowering blocks from AFCO or Allstar.
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replicaracer43
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Hold on, wait a minute, are you telling us your not happy with the ride height, and your car doesn't even have a engine and transmission installed currently? Tell me that's not the case!!!
oi81b4uu812b4
Well-Known Member
I was wondering about that myself, new springs on a gutted car. I think about 400 lbs needs to rest in the trunk for a few months.
khuebner250
Well-Known Member
Are we implying my car is going to settle over 4 1/2"?
Same rear setup as mine
No glass, interior, drivetrain
Road worthy
dartfreak75
Restore it, Dont part it!
Beautiful car
dartfreak75
Restore it, Dont part it!
Wow that is gorgeous
It will compress the springs directly in proportion to the weight on them.
Lets say the spring rate on each leaf spring is 100 lbs force per inch. So that's 200 lbs/in for the pair.
Placing 200 lbs in the trunk directly over, or slightly to the rear of the axle will compress the springs one inch.
How much your springs will compress with your car can be predicted if both the current and fully outfitted front and rear weights are known. The weight can be shifted around a bit by adjusting the torsion bars (simultaneously changing ride height). But the relationship between chassis hieght, spring rates and weight is most of it: Distance compressed(in) = weight (lbf) / spring rate(lbf/in)
On cars where springs don't act directly (coil spring suspensions), then wheel rate is used instead of spring rate.
The spring pack and suspension has some friction and may settle a bit and shocks can slow the settling as well.
edit: corrected the equation.
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khuebner250
Well-Known Member
So I took it all apart and double-checked. Everything looks correct, was relubricated and put back on without be tightened down. Everything moves freely and I'm having the same issue. Annoying know what this height is supposed to be? One at the mounting pad and one in the middle.
oi81b4uu812b4
Well-Known Member
unfortunately I didn’t measure my arch.
Here’s a pic anyway.
Measuring the arch on the set Mopar oval track springs I have I get 6 3/8” on both springs at the highest point.
The AFCO 20231M’s I have on my Duster have an advertised arch of 6 5/8”, but I didn’t measure those myself.
Both of those springs have a 120 lb/in spring rate too. The Hotchkis springs are advertised as 130 lb/in, so if anything they should have less arch than the AFCO’s or the Mopar oval tracks, not more.
Seems like you’ve got the wrong part, or something missed the mark with that set of springs.
The AFCO 20231M’s I have on my Duster have an advertised arch of 6 5/8”, but I didn’t measure those myself.
Both of those springs have a 120 lb/in spring rate too. The Hotchkis springs are advertised as 130 lb/in, so if anything they should have less arch than the AFCO’s or the Mopar oval tracks, not more.
Seems like you’ve got the wrong part, or something missed the mark with that set of springs.
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khuebner250
Well-Known Member
Are those 414 or 415 mp springs?
414, the zero arch springs not the +1".
oi81b4uu812b4
Well-Known Member
if I remember, your Hotchkis springs should have a paper label glued to the outside of the spring eye or close to it, plus a white paint number. I’ll look to see if mine still has them tomorrow, but I’m pretty notorious for painting and touch up with a spray paint can.
By then you will have about 5 more people tell you what their non Hotchkis springs are and another person hijack your post to talk about how heavy rims are.
By then you will have about 5 more people tell you what their non Hotchkis springs are and another person hijack your post to talk about how heavy rims are.
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khuebner250
Well-Known Member
Part # is correct, you can see the same part number in this picture from a magazine install. The picture will come out too small here to read the part #, the article is here Hotchkis Sport Suspension Install - Rebound Rock-Solid
That arch suggests something’s up with the spring though. An 8” arch on a spring that’s supposed to lower the car doesn’t make sense. Using the AFCO’s or the oval track springs as a reference, the Hotchkis springs just shouldn’t have that much arch. They have a higher advertised spring rate, if they have a higher arch they’re going to give a higher ride height. Leaf springs are pretty simple.
oi81b4uu812b4
Well-Known Member
That’s the same number I have on my springs. I just wanted to make sure Hotchkis didn’t have a production change after all the complaints they got from the springs sitting too low after they settle. I think the paper tag had manufacturing dates.
These springs have features to them for handling that you don’t get with other springs. Plus part of the lowering they offer is how the spring eyes are bent. Another is the front mounting braket Hotchkis provides moves the hole up about 1”. But like me you didn’t use that bracket because you installed the US Car Tool spring relocation kit which throws out the brackets because it’s part of the frame kit. The top hole in US Car Tools kit is about the stock Mopar location, or 1” lift in the front mount from what Hotchkis designed.
That top hole in the US Car Tool kit should be 2” down from the top of where you notched & welded their front mount in. They have changed their kit a few times over the years so check it.
Other than that I can tell you my springs settled more than an inch in the first few months maybe closer to two inches. With no interior in it, there was about 4” of air between the top of a 27” dia tire and the fender lip. The springs settles a huge amount when i started to drive it.
I would look into a set of adjustable lowering blocks for a temp fix.i’ve got dozens of blocks in 1/2” thickness increments I use in set up and racing.
How long have you had weight on them?
These springs have features to them for handling that you don’t get with other springs. Plus part of the lowering they offer is how the spring eyes are bent. Another is the front mounting braket Hotchkis provides moves the hole up about 1”. But like me you didn’t use that bracket because you installed the US Car Tool spring relocation kit which throws out the brackets because it’s part of the frame kit. The top hole in US Car Tools kit is about the stock Mopar location, or 1” lift in the front mount from what Hotchkis designed.
That top hole in the US Car Tool kit should be 2” down from the top of where you notched & welded their front mount in. They have changed their kit a few times over the years so check it.
Other than that I can tell you my springs settled more than an inch in the first few months maybe closer to two inches. With no interior in it, there was about 4” of air between the top of a 27” dia tire and the fender lip. The springs settles a huge amount when i started to drive it.
I would look into a set of adjustable lowering blocks for a temp fix.i’ve got dozens of blocks in 1/2” thickness increments I use in set up and racing.
How long have you had weight on them?
khuebner250
Well-Known Member
Been on the ground for about 6 weeks now, no noticable drop as of yet. That includes me jumping in the trunk a couple times a week. The spring pic that 72blunblu posted from hotrod look way flatter than mine. I'll try hotchkis again this week. Never did hear back from them.
I agree, the arch on yours doesn't look right.
The Hotchkis springs are advertised as a 1" lowering spring, but the majority of that comes from the front spring hanger. That basically should mean the Hotchkis springs by themselves are "zero arch" springs, just like the stock springs essentially. Which means the picture from the HotRod article should be what they look like, a very similar free arch to the original springs. Or the oval track 414's or AFCO's as they're also zero arch springs, so again I would expect the Hotchkis springs to have a similar arch.
Without the Hotchkis front hanger you should get a ride height that's about the same as stock, assuming you're not changing the front eye location up or down. But your springs have like an extra 1-1/2" of arch.
oi81b4uu812b4
Well-Known Member
Understand though, that’s an 8 year old article. People complained about their cars sitting too low back then. They may have had a production change. Your car will sit about 5/8-3/4” higher than a non spring relocated car using Hotchkis leafs. If you strung a string between they front and rear eyes and measured your arch, it will be about 6-1/2”. I’d see what Hotchkis says. You can get the arch tweaked at most shops that install 4x4 lift kits. I have a hunch the last step after Hotchkis assembled these, is to compress the spring to set the height, wasn't done.
Not sure how you set your pinion angle, but at your anticipated ride height it should be 2-1/2 degrees in your top hole. It will work out to 4-1/2 degrees then in the bottom then.
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I have the same part number on my Springs followed by an FE rather than a DJ. I wish you had started this thread about a week earlier, I had my Springs off of the car, and would have measured them for you.
They are Hotchkis, sourced from Grab-A-Trak. These may be the earlier “too low for everyone” Springs.
Photos are with the car completely stripped, no interior, glass, bumpers, nothing.
They are Hotchkis, sourced from Grab-A-Trak. These may be the earlier “too low for everyone” Springs.
Photos are with the car completely stripped, no interior, glass, bumpers, nothing.
Zcuda68
Well-Known Member
Maybe try putting 200 lbs in trunk for 2 weeks and check difference
Subbing to see how this works out. Bummer to hear you have this issue. My hotchkiss leags have been great so far.
Your car looks beautiful btw. Good luck.
Did you ever get a response from their tech support?
Your car looks beautiful btw. Good luck.
Did you ever get a response from their tech support?
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