How do hydraulic flat tappet lifters fail?

[TT5.9mag]

@Righty Tighty a do over is highly recommended. Even if the oil looks clear, after a cam lobe goes flat the abrasive slurry is pumped throughout the engine. You likely won’t see the metal in the filter or in the oil but it will be there. And it takes very little time to take a lot of life off of a bearing.

 

[dartfreak75]

Sheeeiiittttt, look close? I can see that from 2 counties over! Well it's official. I want a do over!

When you tear it down look at the bearings that will be your first give away if it was lack of oil

 

[RustyRatRod]

I don't think there's any other way I would do it but a complete "do over" as you call it. There's no telling what caused it and you certainly don't want it to happen again.

 

[MoparMike1974]

"How do hydraulic flat tappet lifters fail?"
How exactly does a posi-trac rear-end on a Plymouth work? It just does.

 

[Righty Tighty]

Now what about the ends on this pushrod? Several are like this. Gritty like sandpaper.

 

[512Stroker]

Now what about the ends on this pushrod? Several are like this. Gritty like sandpaper.
View attachment 1715614702

Well you can **** can those.
I believe you said they were new?

 

[dartfreak75]

Now what about the ends on this pushrod? Several are like this. Gritty like sandpaper.
View attachment 1715614702

Is that the rocker end?
From the looks of that and the looks of the rocker in that one pic I believe you had a valve clearance issue somewhere. Either coil bind guides piston clearance something wasnt letting the valves open as far as the cam was trying to open them

 

[Righty Tighty]

Yes, they were new. And yes, that’s the rocker end. All of the lifter ends of the rods look perfect. Maybe I got the length wrong? That’s just wishful thinking, because that’s the easiest fix...

 

[dartfreak75]

Yes, they were new. And yes, that’s the rocker end. All of the lifter ends of the rods look perfect. Maybe I got the length wrong? That’s just wishful thinking, because that’s the easiest fix...

Did you measure your preload? That could cause some major problems lunati lifters require. 020-060 preload if the pushrod are too long they would exede that preload. Seems to me it would have bent a pushrod during break in tho. Did you have any bent ones?
Lack of oil would probably cause those dings.

 

[Righty Tighty]

No bent rods, all are perfectly straight.

****, i'm trying to remember how I even measured the preload. You'll have to forgive me, this was the only time I'd done this, and it was several months ago. I used the Comp 7702 adjustable rod, and I remember there was a video I followed that said how to do it. I remember I extended the rod until there was zero lash, and then extended it a bit more to give preload, watching the line on the rod because each revolution was a certain number of thousandths. Then, I took that measurement and it turned out to be the stock rod length (much to my surprise).

You mention lack of oil, what about decreased oil viscosity through overheating? When I primed the engine, both heads were flowing very well.

 

[ChargedDart75]

I honestly don't think this is an oil viscosity issue. I believe this was a problem before you ever had overheating issues.

 

[Righty Tighty]

I honestly don't think this is an oil viscosity issue. I believe this was a problem before you ever had overheating issues.

I know Rusty probably thinks this block is screwed altogether considering the problems it had before, but I’m really hoping it was just me who didn’t break it in properly. I thought I did everything right with measuring the pushrod length, but maybe I didn’t.

 

[ChargedDart75]

I know Rusty probably thinks this block is screwed altogether considering the problems it had before, but I’m really hoping it was just me who didn’t break it in properly. I thought I did everything right with measuring the pushrod length, but maybe I didn’t.

I may have missed it, but I don't think anybody thinks the block is screwed. Do you have all the lifters and the camshaft out? I would pull the engine apart, check the bearings, bores and whatnot and go from there. It might not be worse than a cleanup, re-ring and new bearings. You'll never know until you get it apart though.

 

[Righty Tighty]

I may have missed it, but I don't think anybody thinks the block is screwed. Do you have all the lifters and the camshaft out? I would pull the engine apart, check the bearings, bores and whatnot and go from there. It might not be worse than a cleanup, re-ring and new bearings. You'll never know until you get it apart though.

I’m halfway kidding because Rusty helped out last year when I had to rebuild it. He knows this engine has a history, and I suspect he might not think the original problem was fixed.

All the lifters and rods are out, except for the #1 intake lifter. It’s mushroomed a bit and will need to drop out when I pull the cam. I had all the lifters and rods lined up in order until the damn dogs ran across them. Now I have no idea which came from where! No matter, I’m replacing all anyhow. But I did want to be able to inspect the wear in respect to where they came from. I do know one of the lifters from #7 looked funky on the cam side.

The cam will likely come out tomorrow, assuming I can get this damn damper puller to work. Initially I was going to just inspect the rod and main bearings and replace if necessary, but now I’m thinking I might just replace them anyway and not take the chance. They’re too affordable and too important to not just do it.

 

[ChargedDart75]

I think you'll see the camshaft has some more worn lobes, but we will see. Do you have any photos of the lifters?

 

[Righty Tighty]

Here are the lifters that are currently out. You’ll see the three on the far left have some marking. It looks worse in the picture, I can BARELY feel the marks with my fingernail. I can’t remember which one, but one of those is #7. The #7 pushrod looked just fine.

 

[512Stroker]

I’m halfway kidding because Rusty helped out last year when I had to rebuild it. He knows this engine has a history, and I suspect he might not think the original problem was fixed.

All the lifters and rods are out, except for the #1 intake lifter. It’s mushroomed a bit and will need to drop out when I pull the cam. I had all the lifters and rods lined up in order until the damn dogs ran across them. Now I have no idea which came from where! No matter, I’m replacing all anyhow. But I did want to be able to inspect the wear in respect to where they came from. I do know one of the lifters from #7 looked funky on the cam side.

The cam will likely come out tomorrow, assuming I can get this damn damper puller to work. Initially I was going to just inspect the rod and main bearings and replace if necessary, but now I’m thinking I might just replace them anyway and not take the chance. They’re too affordable and too important to not just do it.

Pull a couple of main and rod bearing caps to inspect, if there is no damage no reason to replace. I know an individual who flattened 3 lobes, flushed the engine with alot of diesel fuel, changed out cam and lifters, oil and filter, put the engine back in service still running today many miles later.

 

[ChargedDart75]

Some of them look pretty bad though. I'm honestly interested to see the camshaft.

 

[512Stroker]

Here are the lifters that are currently out. You’ll see the three on the far left have some marking. It looks worse in the picture, I can BARELY feel the marks with my fingernail. I can’t remember which one, but one of those is #7. The #7 pushrod looked just fine. View attachment 1715614809View attachment 1715614810

They look like they were rotating
The janky ones had a lot of pressure on them causing the premature wear.
IMHO if it were lack of lubrication you would have seen more damage to the other lifters.

 

[dartfreak75]

I’m halfway kidding because Rusty helped out last year when I had to rebuild it. He knows this engine has a history, and I suspect he might not think the original problem was fixed.

All the lifters and rods are out, except for the #1 intake lifter. It’s mushroomed a bit and will need to drop out when I pull the cam. I had all the lifters and rods lined up in order until the damn dogs ran across them. Now I have no idea which came from where! No matter, I’m replacing all anyhow. But I did want to be able to inspect the wear in respect to where they came from. I do know one of the lifters from #7 looked funky on the cam side.

The cam will likely come out tomorrow, assuming I can get this damn damper puller to work. Initially I was going to just inspect the rod and main bearings and replace if necessary, but now I’m thinking I might just replace them anyway and not take the chance. They’re too affordable and too important to not just do it.

im no professional but a lifter should not be mushroomed to the point you can't get it out after 600 miles. That's some serious heat. Was the mushroom one on one of the bad lobes? I have seen carbon buildup stick a lifter in the bored before but not after 600 miles sounds like a oilling problem mixed with some bad geometry lol.
The way measured my preload was put the expandable pushrod in with the lifter and lobe in the valve closed position screw it up till it touches the rocker and takes the lash out. Then remove the rocker measure it and compare it to your pushrod it should be .02-.06 longer than the adjustable one

 

[Righty Tighty]

The janky ones had a lot of pressure on them causing the premature wear.

Considering I presoaked them, would that play into increasing the pressure they received?

im no professional but a lifter should not be mushroomed to the point you can't get it out after 600 miles. That's some serious heat. Was the mushroom one on one of the bad lobes? I have seen carbon buildup stick a lifter in the bored before but not after 600 miles sounds like a oilling problem mixed with some bad geometry lol.
The way measured my preload was put the expandable pushrod in with the lifter and lobe in the valve closed position screw it up till it touches the rocker and takes the lash out. Then remove the rocker measure it and compare it to your pushrod it should be .02-.06 longer than the adjustable one

The mushroomed lifter is the exact lifter on the bad lobe. And when I say "mushroomed," I really mean that there's enough drag when I attempt to pull it out of the bore that I don't want to do it. I mean, I could yank it out if I wanted to, but I don't want to damage the bore when I do it. It's hard to tell, but maybe it's just a burr on the OD that's holding it up. All other lifters came out with zero effort, which is a plus.

 

[Righty Tighty]

Well sports fans, the moment you've all been waiting for. Here's the cam and failed lifter. The lifter is worn down so badly that it was beginning to grind into the oil reservoir where the plunger is. Seeing this, I'm guessing the flattening lobe cause the lifter to decompress. What do you guys think about the other lobes?

 

[Righty Tighty]

The rest of the cam

 

[TT5.9mag]

Hang that on the wall as a reminder to always check the lifter bores, check rotation of the lifters, use cam lube, double check your machinists work, use lots of zinc, pre lube the engine, and get the damn thing to fire instantly for break in.

 

[Righty Tighty]

I think I just might do that. It's a bummer that this happened, but these are lessons I need to learn. Hell, a year ago I didn't know any of this, and quite honestly I'm kinda just proud that I put together an engine and made it run. It didn't run for long, but it ran and it was a hell of a lot of fun. As long as I don't repeat the same mistakes but instead learn from them, I think I'm good to go.