I need schooling - old vs. new engines

[Rat Bastid]

The LA has less than optimal 59* lifters. The intake ports are tiny. No coil on plug. Computer controlled engine management.

I've posted some of these advantages and while I am the one that really twisted Mr. Bastard's labia I did, in my very next post after saying it, retract the "shortfalls" statement I made about the LA. I love the LA but the things in the quote above are areas where the 3G Hemi improved on the LA's design.

Mr. Bastard will get no direct response from me and I don't even think he's looking at my posts anymore but I just can't converse with someone who asks questions yet are not remotely interested in what the other person's viewpoint is and is not willing to have their mind changed. EVEN IF this person thinks there is no way in Hell they can have their mind changed civil discourse REQUIRES open minded conversation.

When I get into political or religious conversations with my friends I genuinely listen and they listen to me. A memorable experience was a conversation with a friend's mom. She is staunchly side A and I am side B. I knew that engaging in conversation to change her mind was futile. We talked for about 2 hours, sharing ideas, and listening. Neither of us changed our mind but at the end of the evening we thanked each other for the conversation and both agreed that it was a great time talking and listening.

I think Mr. Bastard said I needed to "grow up" and answer the questions he posed to me (in which he has no desire of actually considering), demanding that I engage further. A childish action. Well, I have no interest and simply had to say, "Fine, you're right. The LA is superior." just to end my interaction. Yet, he doesn't want to accept that either and I get a X. This guy is a control freak. Probably somewhat of a lonely fella too because he seems to really enjoy spinning the same yarn with myself, DionR, MopaR&D, AAndrews, and others. Poor guy.

I’m not a control freak. I was VERY polite when I asked you what the Hemi did to overcome the wedge. And you flipped out.

Again, compare era for era and the Hemi loses every time.

 

[Rat Bastid]

To be as cordial as possible as this is a forum for discussion, I will give Mr Bastid his due. He is talking about engines only, not assembled packages that have been tested . He is correct that Gen 3 hemi blocks and cylinder heads alone using mechanical based carburation systems and none of the engine management electronics won't outperform the wedge motors especially using the W-series heads. Also, the older Gen 2 Hemi's were troublesome, needing plenty of tuning to stay running properly.

But, as the rest of us commented here, when you put together a "package' using the G-3 engine , associated fuel management and ignition systems that are computer controlled, and put it in a plug and play package its unbeatable. No La, BB or Rb engine in its "as produced' format will come close to a Gen 3 for driveability , fuel economy and, in the case of the HellCrate, raw power.

Here's my 408 Magnum . balanced , blueprinted, professional build 517hp at the crank.

Approximate cost $30,000,00

View attachment 1715996717


Here's a 2017 Hellcat engine and transmission, approx 830 HP.

$14,000 US.



View attachment 1715996719


Guess where I should have invested my money!

Not to offend you, but 22 years ago I made 540 HP on 408 inches with a way too small hydraulic roller and Edelbrock heads.

I could duplicate that today, add another 40 HP easy and do it for less than 15k.

And it would idle smooth and drive so easy a school girl could jump in it and be comfortable.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Not to offend you, but 22 years ago I made 540 HP on 408 inches with a way too small hydraulic roller and Edelbrock heads.

I could duplicate that today, add another 40 HP easy and do it for less than 15k.

And it would idle smooth and drive so easy a school girl could jump in it and be comfortable.

A hot schoolgirl?

 

[Super-Cuda]

Not to offend you, but 22 years ago I made 540 HP on 408 inches with a way too small hydraulic roller and Edelbrock heads.

I could duplicate that today, add another 40 HP easy and do it for less than 15k.

And it would idle smooth and drive so easy a school girl could jump in it and be comfortable.

On the contrary, not offended at all. I wish I could duplicate that setup!

I had my engine professionally built using what I thought was some pretty decent hardware. (Diamond 11.1 pistons, Scorpion Racing Products valvetrain, fully worked edlebrock aluminum heads, Air gap intake , Comp Cams extreme energy (don't have specs in front of me at the moment) 770 Street Avenger carb, fully balanced rotating assembly, TTI headers (Using shorties so may have lost some hp there.) Heavy duty cooling system. Brewers Built 4-speed and 3:55-1 489 case suregrip (by DR Diff). I get approx 517 to the crank, pretty lumpy idle and about 12mpg. Approx 5000 miles on the engine since I put this setup together.
I am generally pleased with the setup after much playing with Carb settings/timing and the car runs very well. The one thing I would like to play with is A/F ratios but I'm not currently set up to do that yet.
I don't think a schoolgirl or anyone else would call the idle smooth!!

 

[Super-Cuda]

I’m not a control freak. I was VERY polite when I asked you what the Hemi did to overcome the wedge. And you flipped out.

Again, compare era for era and the Hemi loses every time.

Have to disagree.

The only way the Hemi loses is if it is not used as intended. In my opinion, the 440 HP 6-Pak engine was the most streetable big-block released from Chrysler that could give the hemi a run for its money. The 426 Hemi was specifically developed for Nascar and was never intended to be a "grocery getter" powerplant and was de-tuned for homologation of the engine so it could be raced in Nascar. If the Hemi had been released as designed initially, 425 HP would have really been a joke, more like 650HP!! The Gen 3 Hemi was developed as a versatile powerplant that could be used across the board in cars and trucks. What makes the modern Hemi such a force is the electronic management systems it is designed to use along with the superchargers. 800-1000 Hp , great fuel economy and a factory warranty! No wonder Dodge sells out every SRT product it builds! No way this Hemi loses to anything factory built including the LS and the Coyote . Mopar Action Magazine has a great article this month on an aftermarket pump-gas Gen 3 with supercharger, plug and play that makes 1100hp! Absoutely astounding!!

 

[go-fish]

Just so you guys know, this is what Rat Bastard considers flipping out. Sheesh. A lil' sensitive?

Okay, you win. LA's are a superior design than a computer aided design. Have a great day.

Then he gives me a X (Disagree) , to which I reply.

@Rat Bastid So now you agree that the 3G is a better design? Maybe you're just mad you can't get into a pissing match this morning?

 

[staycool72]

The 408 has its choppy idle due the the cam, the LSA is probably 110 or lower, the newer engines are around 114 which gives it a smooth idle

 

[Rat Bastid]

A hot schoolgirl

YES! Non hotties need not apply.

 

[RockinRobin]

My gen III is all motor and makes somewhere between 650 and 700 HP. It has the most radical race cam Comp makes for that motor and it doesn't really idle that lumpy.
I don't have my hands on the cam specs right now but I think you are spot on with the LSA at 114. I do idle it quite high for racing purposes and there is no VVT on this motor.
Take a 5.7, put Eagle heads on it Raise compression to 13.5:1 with custom pistons, put a cam and a stroker crank in it and this is the output it gives without power adders.
I also have a decent hi rise racing intake and a Holley sniper 4500 EFI on it.

 

[DionR]

My gen III is all motor and makes somewhere between 650 and 700 HP. It has the most radical race cam Comp makes for that motor and it doesn't really idle that lumpy.
I don't have my hands on the cam specs right now but I think you are spot on with the LSA at 114. I do idle it quite high for racing purposes and there is no VVT on this motor.
Take a 5.7, put Eagle heads on it Raise compression to 13.5:1 with custom pistons, put a cam and a stroker crank in it and this is the output it gives without power adders.
I also have a decent hi rise racing intake and a Holley sniper 4500 EFI on it.

Very nice. Unported heads, correct?

I wonder what a 5.9 with the same formula would do.

Stock heads
Stroker crank
High compression pistons
Big cam
Single plane intake

Hmm....I'm no motor wizard, but I bet it isn't anywhere close to 650+ hp.

 

[Rat Bastid]

Very nice. Unported heads, correct?

I wonder what a 5.9 with the same formula would do.

Stock heads
Stroker crank
High compression pistons
Big cam
Single plane intake

Hmm....I'm no motor wizard, but I bet it isn't anywhere close to 650+ hp.

Again, you are comparing engines from different eras to make yourself feel better.

Carry on. I’m not here to educate you.

HEMI WINS. BEST ENGINE EVA

 

[volaredon]

The older I get and the less "motor" I see under a good every day, plus more wires, black boxes etc makes me crave the simplicity of a /6 or an LA motor with a simple carburetor on top. Less crap to go wrong. If my 4 pin ecu dies I can bolt on another and go in 5 minutes, no programming, no tow bill to a dealer that can do so, no wait for one to be shipped in.
If it don't have it it can't leave me stranded.
There's so much to be said for a $20 mechanical fuel pump that takes 2 bolts to r&r and not a tank drop. Or. Separate inner/outer wheel bearings, races and seals that can be serviced vs a hub assy that costs so much more just to buy.

 

[racerjoe]

t don't have it it can't leave me stranded.

The ild r I get and the less "motor" I see under a good every day, plus more wires, black boxes etc makes me crave the simplicity of a /6 or an LA motor with a simple carburetor on top. Less crap to go wrong. If my 4 pin ecu dies I can bolt on another and go in 5 minutes, no programming, no tow bill to a dealer that can do so, no wait for one to be shipped in.
If it don't have it it can't leave me stranded.
There's so much to be said for a $20 mechanical fuel pump that takes 2 bolts to r&r and not a tank drop. Or. Separate inner/outer wheel bearings, races and seals that can be serviced vs a hub assy that costs so much more just to buy.

Nothing wrong with simplicity of pre-efi engines if that is your thing. Just please don't preach that efi is junk. It's simply not your thing.

I wonder if guys in the 1932 were complaining about Ford taking the ignition advance off the steering wheel. I can see the butt hurt now... "all these fancy new cars adjust timing automatically. I can do it better myself"..... LMAO!

 

[Super-Cuda]

Nothing wrong with simplicity of pre-efi engines if that is your thing. Just please don't preach that efi is junk. It's simply not your thing.

I wonder if guys in the 1932 were complaining about Ford taking the ignition advance off the steering wheel. I can see the butt hurt now... "all these fancy new cars adjust timing automatically. I can do it better myself"..... LMAO!

Agree totally racerjoe!

I too love the simplicity of the older cars but, I find the new technology facinating. You just can't argue with the impact technology has had on the automotive industry . More power, better fuel economy and more reliable. Whats not to like?

I'm hanging my hat on technology to save us from losing our ICE vehicles to electric by coming up with a solution to make gasoline engines even more fuel savy. Gas engines are about 35% efficient. Imagine if that could be increased to 50 or 60%?
It would go a long way to extending the production of ICE vehicles. I'm also of the belief that oil will be around for a long time yet.

Do you really expect the Arab nations , the top oil based economies in the world to dry up and blow away ? Too much money involved and they control too much of the world's wealth .

 

[DionR]

Again, you are comparing engines from different eras to make yourself feel better.

And you are ignoring the reality that they will be always be compared. You keep saying "you can't compare old vs new" like it is a shield to keep you from having to admit that the G3 isn't as bad as you want to believe it is.

Before someone invented the hammer, a rock worked ok. But after the hammer came along, building a fence got much easier because the hammer did a better job than a rock did. It's ok if you like rocks better, but they are both tools and need to be evaluated based on how well they do the job, not on what your pappy used "back in the day".

 

[RockinRobin]

Very nice. Unported heads, correct?

I wonder what a 5.9 with the same formula would do.

Stock heads
Stroker crank
High compression pistons
Big cam
Single plane intake

Hmm....I'm no motor wizard, but I bet it isn't anywhere close to 650+ hp.

All I know about the heads are they are Eagle heads that were sent to B.E.S. Racing engines in Indiana and they applied the same magic to them that they did to their engine masters challenge motors that made over 700hp. I also used them for advice on the cam, pistons, rings, crank, bearings, etc. They were very helpful and they know gen III hemis.

 

[DionR]

All I know about the heads are they are Eagle heads that were sent to B.E.S. Racing engines in Indiana and they applied the same magic to them that they did to their engine masters challenge motors that made over 700hp. I also used them for advice on the cam, pistons, rings, crank, bearings, etc. They were very helpful and they know gen III hemis.

Ok, so far from stock heads. I guess that changes things some.

 

[RockinRobin]

Ok, so far from stock heads. I guess that changes things some.

I joined this conversation to use my racing motor as an example of idle characteristics. I wasn't trying to say Gen III was better than everything else. There used to be a guy at my local track that had a brown '70 Duster with a built small block that would beat me every time. In my situation it was easier to go with the Gen III for racing, for various reasons, not the least of which was that I won the heads and the prep from B.E.S. by coming in 2nd place at a national event. It made sense to build a gen III since I had had free racing heads.

 

[DionR]

I joined this conversation to use my racing motor as an example of idle characteristics. I wasn't trying to say Gen III was better than everything else. There used to be a guy at my local track that had a brown '70 Duster with a built small block that would beat me every time. In my situation it was easier to go with the Gen III for racing, for various reasons, not the least of which was that I won the heads and the prep from B.E.S. by coming in 2nd place at a national event. It made sense to build a gen III since I had had free racing heads.

To be clear, I'm not saying the G3 is the best at everything either. But sometimes it is a better tool depending on the application.

I wouldn't put a hammer in a sling and huck it at Goliath, a rock is a much better tool in that application.

Edit - not to say David couldn't have defeated Goliath with a hammer, God can do anything. Just that the rock made more sense for that use.

But I will argue that a G3 isn't the rock some appear to be saying it is. And that it has some real advantages going for it.

Just like you winning the heads you used, buying a G3 takeout gives me heads that based on empirical evidence are far better than anything I could afford to buy for the LA in my Duster.

 

[DionR]

My gen III is all motor and makes somewhere between 650 and 700 HP. It has the most radical race cam Comp makes for that motor and it doesn't really idle that lumpy.
I don't have my hands on the cam specs right now but I think you are spot on with the LSA at 114. I do idle it quite high for racing purposes and there is no VVT on this motor.
Take a 5.7, put Eagle heads on it Raise compression to 13.5:1 with custom pistons, put a cam and a stroker crank in it and this is the output it gives without power adders.
I also have a decent hi rise racing intake and a Holley sniper 4500 EFI on it.

I would be curious to hear what your cam specs are. If you get a chance to look them up.

I did do some digging on the Comp website and the biggest cam I could find for a non-VVT Hemi was a Stage 3 cam with 277/284 advertised duration, 224/234 duration at 0.050 lift, 0.632/0.619 lift and a 115 LSA.

But you can't be making 650+ hp with that cam can you? Seems like a pretty small cam to me. That's smaller than the 380hp crate motor cam, duration wise.

 

[Super-Cuda]

To be clear, I'm not saying the G3 is the best at everything either. But sometimes it is a better tool depending on the application.

I wouldn't put a hammer in a sling and huck it at Goliath, a rock is a much better tool in that application.

But I will argue that a G3 isn't the rock some appear to be saying it is. And that it has some real advantages going for it.

Just like you winning the heads you used, buying a G3 takeout gives me heads that based on empirical evidence are far better than anything I could afford to buy for the LA in my Duster.

Personally, I feel the Gen 3 Hemi is the "Chevy smallblock" of Mopars.

You will soon find them in everything . They are readily available at reasonable prices as millions were built and there are dozens of manufacturers catering to it as far as parts , plug and play wiring harnesses etc and it will get cheaper as time goes on.

I think it represents the best bang for buck you can get these days as the early LA and Magnum engine supply starts to dry up and they get more and more expensive to build.

As I heard someone say on a popular resto TV series "the juice just ain't worth the squeeze!! "

 

[racerjoe]

I would be curious to hear what your cam specs are. If you get a chance to look them up.

I did do some digging on the Comp website and the biggest cam I could find for a non-VVT Hemi was a Stage 3 cam with 277/284 advertised duration, 224/234 duration at 0.050 lift, 0.632/0.619 lift and a 115 LSA.

But you can't be making 650+ hp with that cam can you? Seems like a pretty small cam to me. That's smaller than the 380hp crate motor cam, duration wise.

Dion, I think that cam is for a stock piston, hence the short duration. I think they try to make up for that with lift. I find there aren't many cams advertised for the G3 that are for aftermarket pistons only. I'm sure that's to prevent the uneducated 2015 challenger owner from late night online shopping from buying a cam that will trash their valvetrain. I'm sure you know any cam company can grind whatever you want. The cam I run in my 408 is actually a grind that's advertised for a small block chevy.

I was actually looking at that cam, but will likely speak to some people familiar with G3s before I make a purchase. Their site actually claims +86Hp with that cam. Combine this cam and a set of long tubes, that will be a tire fryer in a light A-body.

 

[DionR]

Dion, I think that cam is for a stock piston, hence the short duration. I think they try to make up for that with lift. I find there aren't many cams advertised for the G3 that are for aftermarket pistons only.

Makes sense. I was just the biggest one I could find. But I also didn't spend an exhaustive amount of time looking either.

 

[DionR]

Personally, I feel the Gen 3 Hemi is the "Chevy smallblock" of Mopars.

You will soon find them in everything . They are readily available at reasonable prices as millions were built and there are dozens of manufacturers catering to it as far as parts , plug and play wiring harnesses etc and it will get cheaper as time goes on.

I think it represents the best bang for buck you can get these days as the early LA and Magnum engine supply starts to dry up and they get more and more expensive to build.

As I heard someone say on a popular resto TV series "the juice just ain't worth the squeeze!! "

I can see that, to a point. But until the LA/Magnums dry up I can see a threshold where the wedge head motor makes more sense.

For the guy that just wants to get his rig on the road with a V8, a 5.2 or 5.9 Magnum just makes way more sense. Same for a guy that has a bit more money but is perfectly happy with 300-350 hp and just wants to cruise. Even at the 450 hp threshold, it's kind of hard to say a BP crate motor isn't a fine path to take, unless you want both the power and drivability that a G3 with EFI can give. Above that it almost comes down to only what the guys wants out of the car. Certainly a stroker LA, or even better a BB, can give you 600 hp and do the job just fine, but if you want 600 hp and decent mileage and a smoother idle then it seems like the G3 is the way to go.

For me, I want more power than my current setup has but it can't come at the expense of drivability. And a 5.7 with a 6.4 cam and intake should make significantly better horsepower than I do right now for a lot less money than a crate 408 would cost me, and I get a huge bump in mileage as a bonus.

I am a year or so away from making the swap, and just buying parts while I wait, so final numbers are just a guess. But I am pretty sure I can get close to the BP 408 crate motor power, and do a 6 speed swap at the same time, for less than the 408 would cost me. And the result is a much better package than the 408 with my worn out A833OD would be.

 

[MopaR&D]

I would be curious to hear what your cam specs are. If you get a chance to look them up.

I did do some digging on the Comp website and the biggest cam I could find for a non-VVT Hemi was a Stage 3 cam with 277/284 advertised duration, 224/234 duration at 0.050 lift, 0.632/0.619 lift and a 115 LSA.

But you can't be making 650+ hp with that cam can you? Seems like a pretty small cam to me. That's smaller than the 380hp crate motor cam, duration wise.

Cam duration/overlap has a much more pronounced effect on the new Hemis than older wedge engines since the valves and ports are so much bigger and the heads are true cross-flow design. At least that's my understanding from seeing other people's builds and the power/torque curves they make.

Like some mentioned before, the engineers designing these newer engines needed to keep the valve timing pretty tame with minimal overlap and wide LSA for emissions and velvet-smooth idle (NVH). So to increase power they massively increased the airflow potential of the heads. Now with those massive-flowing heads you don't need nearly as much valve timing overlap when upgrading the cam, small increases make a bigger difference in power. I read from some guys modding modern Challengers that biggest "Stage 3" cam from Comp kills quite a bit of low-end torque and isn't a good choice for a street car without supporting mods (gearing + weight reduction). Even though the cam specs seem "small" on paper relative to what we're used to dealing with for our old-school V8s.

IIRC from reading old tech literature it was a similar case for BB wedge vs. G2 Hemi cams back in the day. You could physically swap cams between the 2 but the profiles were optimized for each head type and worked best in their respective engines.