I need schooling - old vs. new engines

[DionR]

DionR the 6.4 cam is cut on a 121 LSA and has 215/221 @.050 107 ICL with 20+ degrees of retard in the VVT. The 380 Crate engines cam if I remember right was
288/292 232/236 @.050 (or it could have been 230/[email protected] i'm not sure) cut on a 108 lsa with a 106 ICL, pretty healthy street cam. The 6.4 cam is very mild in comparison.

Thanks! I stand corrected.

And yet the 6.4 makes almost 85 or so more HP, based on dyno numbers rather than published numbers. And get's 25+ mpg to boot.

Man, the G3 Hemi must really suck.

 

[19DART66]

DionR Ya they do, I was told back in 2013 after I put a 6.4 cam and PSI 1511 valve springs and shorty headers not to take it to 6000 rpm or it would spit the crack and rods out of it, Ya I shifted it at 6200 with the 6.4 cam and 6500 with the custom cam and long tube headers and SRV intake and hit the fuel cut off at 6800 quite a few times over the last 10 years. I think this 5.7 would pull hard right past 7000 if I upped the fuel cut off. Yes they really suck these Hemi's.

 

[Johnny Mac]

True story, an untouched Eagle head outflows a worked set of W2 heads, and can be had over the counter for much less cost. Technology has really changed in head flow and engine management. I do believe there is a place for both.

Agree 100%. 400+ intake CFM at .650 on a set of worked apache 6.4 heads. pretty wild number

More efficient combustion chamber, mpfi, more streetable horsepower. I'm having fun playing with these....looking forward to launching at sema

 

[Rat Bastid]

Ok, so you are saying peak flow number comparisons aren't going to be the best way to compare cylinder heads. Fair enough.



Can you explain that a little more? Better in what way? Packaging? Smaller valve cover?



I'm not trying to say you can't get a LA/Magnum to cold start and idle. I'm just saying that a carb'ed 408 isn't going to do either as well as a 5.7 or 6.4. And the more ragged edge the 408 is built, the less likely it will do it without constant tweaking.



I guess I am looking at it from an "other than theoretical" position. I love the ide a of a W2 headed smallblock. But the idea of finding all the parts and making them work together makes me say a 5.7 is the better way. Would a W2 outrun a 5.7 if they were equally built? Maybe, don't really care. Could you build a W2 headed motor that has equal drivability as a small cammed 5.7 and still outrun it? I have doubts.

I would love to see that done though. Don't get me wrong. And it might already have been done. I know @racerjoe has a trick SBM with EFI and CNP. Maybe he would be a good one to give input on building a nice driving SBM that get's good fuel economy and makes great power. Another one is @goldduster318. He has a fully EFI'ed SBM and even a T56.

I guess they way I see it, I can buy a BP 465 hp crate motor for $9K and get probably 16 mpg. Or I can do a complete 5.7 swap, including a 6.4 cam and intake, and make about the same power but with 25+ mpg and better drivability. Maybe as you assert the G3 Hemi head isn't as good as the Edelbrocks on the BP motor, but the results kind of say otherwise.

As I’ve said, flow numbers are a piss poor way to evaluate a cylinder head. It’s the easiest way to compare heads, but at best its a poor way of doing it.

Of course, the guys selling heads love to post flow numbers because that’s what sells. David Reher wrote an article in the National Dragster about this and I sure many others have as well. I’m more interested in the shape of the curve and how the port sounds on a flow bench than I am the flow numbers. Thats something you learn after you test a half dozen heads on a flow bench. That and most every article and shot like that are dead wrong.

Talking NA, the wedge head is always better than a Hemi. While the flow numbers look great and line of sight ports are the best you lose when the intake and exhaust valves oppose each other. Again, talking NA.

It doesn’t take long to see how the BBC just KILLS the Hemi NA. You have almost line of sight ports but the exhaust valve isn’t opposed to the intake valve. That changes overlap flow. Most people either don’t know or don’t care about overlap flow, but it’s a big deal.

Another example is the Pro Stock “hemi“ which wasn’t a Hemi. The closest that engine was to a Hemi was the skirted block. And all big blocks have that shitty design. Too bad GM copied that junk. Of course, the OE’s are more concerned with noise and stuff than actual power so there is that.

Anyway, that “Hemi” engine had issues that made it a different cat than a wedge. The skirted block is a power eater. The fix for that was machining that skirt off the passenger side of the block and building an oil pan that for the block after that was done. I also know it was 2 hours just to pull the pan and not jack it up and four hours (or more) to put it back on and get it sealed. When you pull 20 or so inches of vacuum in the engine the thing needs to be sealed tight. It was a nightmare and I saw that junk up close.

Another thing that kills the Hemi (NA) is the huge port with a short runner length. The G3 isn’t any different. Big, short port. What killed the last version of the “hemi” in Pro Stock was that short port. When NHRA passed the EFI and RPM rules, they KNEW it would kill the Hemi and they still did it.

The Hemi was some 700-800 RPM higher than the wedge headed engines. That’s HUGE. So when those two rules were passed, the big short port became a liability. You couldn’t get the manifold runner long enough with the current EFI rules so the Hemi was now way underpowered at the 10,500 RPM rule.

You will ask why does this matter. It matters because you or I can’t change the physics involved in internal combustion engine science.

Enough of that. As far as getting a carbed engine to start and idle like EFI isnt that hard. What it won’t do is start and sit there and idle while you drink a latte.

If you get it right it will start and idle and not be pig fat rich either. But you’d better have your **** together when you plan the build or you‘ll never get it.

Lets not forget I’m not disputing that machining has gotten far better than it was in the 60’s and 70’s. It’s not even close, but we are still dealing with production engines.

To that end, I can’t recall a single virgin 340 that was anywhere near 10.5:1 compression ratio. I found some that were 9.2:1 and that was it. It’s a huge jump from 9.2:1 to 10.5:1, and it doesnt always show up on a water brake dyno.

The newer stuff is far closer to the nominal compression ratio called out. I can also tell you that unless you actually pour the head and cylinder and do the math you most likely don’t have the compression ratio you think you do. That’s why I question guys on here who say “I’m about 10:1“ or whatever. The majority of the time it’s not even close to what they think it is. I can’t tell you how many times an engine came in with “X” compression ratio and was cammed for that and it wasn’t close. And they ran like garbage.

Thats why comparing engines from different era’s is so difficult. When you update the older engine and make it what it should be then you don’t see the big performance differences.

So I compare a G2 Hemi with wedge headed engines of its era and the G3 Hemi with wedge headed engines of its era. And it always ends up that the Hemi (NA) is the loser.

 

[Rat Bastid]

Can you expand on why it is bad policy? Seems like a win-win to me so I must be missing something.



Agreed, probably doesn't make much difference. But I also wouldn't be surprised if correct pushrod angles adds some efficiency. One that you can't get in an LA without tracking down a 48 degree block and all the associated parts.

BTW, I'm not trying to goad you or start a fight. Just dialoging. I learned a long time ago that I don't know what I don't know so if someone has an opinion about something, better to listen rather than ignore what might be useful info.

The front mounted, crank driven oil pump is done because it saves money. That’s it. All the crap attributed to cam driven oil pumps can be largely related to shitty timing chains. The oil pump gets blamed for spark scatter but it’s almost always the timing chain.

There are only two cases that I can think of that moving the oil pump forward is a good thing. That is the external wet sump system and the dry sump system. Other than that, the pump should be mounted in the rear.

Think about it. Even with Chrysler’s center sump pan, you have moved the pick up away from where all the oil goes under acceleration. That’s stupid. Unless you are counting every nickel and dime you can. On top of moving the pickup away from the movement of the oil, you now have to make the pickup tube longer. Again, there is nothing good about that.

In order to get the longer tube to have the same restriction as the shorter pick up, the diameter has to be larger. Quite a bit larger. Now you are fighting for room in the pan and you need to clear the rods and all that. So it never gets to be as big as it should.

Does it work? Yes. Is it good engineering? Not even close.

The front or timing cover mounted oil pump is not an improvement. It had been done before with poor results. It’s now back in vogue. It’s a cost savings and thats it.

 

[Rat Bastid]

Rat Bastid, I am probably one of the few on this forum that agrees with a lot of what you have to say. But this thing with the G3 and G4 Hemis after owning 3 of them since 2006 ( 2 trucks and a 2012 Challenger R/T) is a crock of crap. The valve seat problem was a problem,but only if they were over heated, the cam lifter problem is in the MDS system and less than 5% of production engines according to the real facts and not a flawed block design. The LS engines with whatever they call there MDS are eating cam and lifters also at a rate fast enough that the aftermarket came to there rescue with a fix. Oh let us all not forget the worst cam and lifter fiasco of all, all those small block Chevys that ate cams from 1972 to the end of production of flat tappet cams in what 1987, nobody condemned the SB Chevys and LS for that, like they do the Hemi. These Hemi engines will run with any LS out there, and do not forget in Factory Stock class the Hemi Challengers were sanctioned against 3 times in one season for beating up on the Copo Camaros same as the G2 426 Hemi was sanctioned out of competition in most racing sanctions. I have owned 3 Challengers in my life a 340 4spd , a 440 6 pack automatic, both of them had 3.55 rear gears and the one I still have, a 2012 R/T Classic 5.7 6spd tremec and 3.90 rear gear. I changed the cam out to a 214/224 @ .050 .590/.585 lift cut on a 112* installed at 106* VVT is still active, 1 7/8 headers, stock factory SRT 2 3/4" exhaust, 6.4 srv intake manifold set to switch to short runner at 4800 rpms, the car itself weighs over 4300 pounds. Now the 340 car had 484 mopar cam,headers, LD340 intake, and 800 Holley. The 440 6 pack had a 509 mopar cam, headers and a 2800 converter, both had a lot healthier cams then the new R/T and both weighted a lot less, 3400 to 3500 for the 340, 3700 to 3800 for the 440-6. Seat of the paints the way I remember them running at the time in the 70's the 340 never could have caught the new 5.7 the 440-6 would of given it a run for its money but in my heart I think the 5.7 would come out on top. I have run two older muscle cars on the street with the new Challenger, first was a 67 Camaro SS with a warmed over 350 automatic no competition at all, the second was a supposed 496 big block in an early 70's Chevelle he pulled me in first and second gear at the top of third I stared reeling him in fourth gear I pulled alongside of him, now if we had got off the throttles at the 1/4 mile he probably had me by a fender, but we kept going till I pulled a little over a car length on him and I heard him dump the throttle probably out of gear. Now my 2012 runs high 12' in the quarter with 2.0 60 fts. but from a first gear roll like I ran the Chevelle it's definitely quicker than that. So I think and a lot of people are listening to a lot of internet crap about this new Hemis and do not realize how good they really run, especially with all the weight they are pushing.

I can watch them at the drag strip. Most NA Hemi’s are slow. It’s pretty easy to look at the MPH and the weight to see what they make for power. It’s not impressive.

 

[Rat Bastid]

Here's an interesting comparison (to me anyway ).

The 380 HP crate motor cam specs I found are 288/292 duration with 0.501/0.513 lift.

The 6.4 cam specs I found are 286/288 duration and 0.577/0.537 lift.

I know there is more to a cam than just those numbers, but as a rule a 28_+ cam is fairly rowdy and I know the 380hp crate motor was a beast but not the best driving motor.

But the 6.4 cam with similar duration numbers makes gobs of power everywhere and is a peach to drive.

Not saying the 380hp crate motor should have been better, it has it's compromises for sure. Just saying that if one compares the cams it would seem that they should drive the same and yet they are worlds apart for drivability. Maybe the narrow LSA of the 380hp crate motor has a lot to do with that? Pretty sure the 6.4 cam is in the 112-114 LSA range.

Interesting to note too that the Eagle 5.7 makes similar power to the crate motor and is again head and shoulders above it in drivability.

I have a problem with this. Again, you are comparing different generations of engines. That’s wrong.

Those crate engines (most of that junk anyway) had flat tappet cams. And no computer to control the tune(r).

Look at cam timing between the LS and the G3 and see what that looks like.

I‘m a proponent of valve lift being no less that .3 LD, as long as the valve train can handle the lift. The cheesy 5/16 bolts holding the shafts down limit actual lift to about .650 or so. Anything less is giving up power.

That means with a 2.02 valve you should be around .600 lift. You can do the math for other valve diameter.

 

[Rat Bastid]

Whoever said a Hemi chamber is more efficient is sadly mistaken.

 

[MopaR&D]

@Rat Bastid your replies are very interesting but it sounds like your experience lies with racing engines far and above the intensity of what the vast majority of us mortals mess around with on here. I watched one of those PERA webinars about overlap flow and how valve orientation affects efficiency based on the operating RPM range, and how true cross-flow Hemi heads don't have any real advantage until 9000+ rpm and at speeds below that canted-valve heads have the advantage.

I think using that background as a basis to argue that the G3 Hemi is a loser overall is kind of half-baked, if that's the right term? Very few of us had the privilege to spend decades in the Pro Stock world and honestly it seems to be quite a different world than that of the shade tree self-educated hobbyist. If I'm wrong please correct me but your responses seem to be all based off engines that are so extreme it's hard to understand or connect how they actually relate to production street engines.

Also in my mind the crank-driven oil pump has the advantage of not relying on the timing set to drive it. Granted I haven't heard of timing chains in pushrod V8s breaking very much at all but I think that idea combined with the cost was what the engineers were thinking back in the 1990s when the G3 Hemi was on the CAD "drawing board".

I'm also interested to see how they progress as racers mess with them more and more. The old engines have the advantage of having been around for 50+ years so they have that much more aftermarket and racing development time behind them. G3 hemi has "only" been out 20 years and people didn't really start messing with them heavily until about 5-8 years ago. And on that note, the LS platform got a 6-year jump on the Hemi when it was first released.

 

[MOPAROFFICIAL]

Very difficult to compare the two since the engine designs are completely different. Even though a 3G is not a "true hemi" it is still a hemi design, not a wedge. Football to baseball and all that

For example, I was astounded a few years ago to find that a 3G hemi only wants low 20's for total advance, while a typical wedge wants 35 ish and in some cases more than that

Maybe typical in the lower compression depot, yep. Dog bone chamber in the hemi, isn't it? Somewhere in the polhemi

 

[Rat Bastid]

@Rat Bastid your replies are very interesting but it sounds like your experience lies with racing engines far and above the intensity of what the vast majority of us mortals mess around with on here. I watched one of those PERA webinars about overlap flow and how valve orientation affects efficiency based on the operating RPM range, and how true cross-flow Hemi heads don't have any real advantage until 9000+ rpm and at speeds below that canted-valve heads have the advantage.

I think using that background as a basis to argue that the G3 Hemi is a loser overall is kind of half-baked, if that's the right term? Very few of us had the privilege to spend decades in the Pro Stock world and honestly it seems to be quite a different world than that of the shade tree self-educated hobbyist. If I'm wrong please correct me but your responses seem to be all based off engines that are so extreme it's hard to understand or connect how they actually relate to production street engines.

Also in my mind the crank-driven oil pump has the advantage of not relying on the timing set to drive it. Granted I haven't heard of timing chains in pushrod V8s breaking very much at all but I think that idea combined with the cost was what the engineers were thinking back in the 1990s when the G3 Hemi was on the CAD "drawing board".

I'm also interested to see how they progress as racers mess with them more and more. The old engines have the advantage of having been around for 50+ years so they have that much more aftermarket and racing development time behind them. G3 hemi has "only" been out 20 years and people didn't really start messing with them heavily until about 5-8 years ago. And on that note, the LS platform got a 6-year jump on the Hemi when it was first released.

Not sure what webinar you watched but overlap flow doesn’t need 9000 RPM to have an affect.

I‘m talking about NA, pump gas engines. Street/strip engines.

Go back and read the thread. Someone said the G3 Hemi “fixed” or “overcame” all the wedge head issues and I asked him what did that head overcome.

Answer: not a damned thing. In any NA application a wedge head will out perform a Hemi all day long.

You can compare a G1 Hemi with Max Wedge stuff and the Hemi loses.

You can compare a G2 Hemi with a decent 440 and the 440 beats it up.

You can compare a G3 Hemi with an LS (because Chrysler didn’t bother to develop a wedge head engine to compete with it) and the LS will win every time.

As I pointed out before, power adders change everything. Except nitrous. I’ve never done a nitrous Hemi but every smart guy I know that’s tried says a Hemi will not run on nitrous.

If I was doing a snail or a pair of hair dryers of even a roots style blower it would be with a Hemi. But that’s not what we are talking about. We are talking about pump gas, street/strip cars.

 

[racerjoe]

Whether it's here on the forum, or in person locally, I've not seen one single aftermarket EFI conversion that works 100% correctly and or has not been a total and complete pain in the BUTT for whoever was doing it. In fact, I've seen many of them snatch it all back off for a carburetor.

While I'm sure some of the EFI manufactures have had some growing pains, I'd be willing to bet 75% of the problems with EFI is the user or the method in which it was installed.

IMO if you don't fully understand how EFI works and you want to "DIY" it, stick to your carb. If you are willing to pay someone that knows what they are doing, have at it. I always think its comical when someone blames the components when they don't work correctly, but it wasn't installed correctly.

 

[racerjoe]

I'm not sure. That's a really good que

I wonder if you could "change" that by modifying the timing curve right at idle

Given the stock G3 cam is tame by nature, I'd imagine the idle timing advance isn't that "busy". I have a 112 CL cam and take some of the lope out at idle with timing. It's very easy to do. There's a timing table plotting intake vaccum and RPM. When RPM goes up, knock timing out of it. When RPM goes down, add some advance. If you were to see a log of my timing at idle, it's all over the place.

 

[racerjoe]

I had thought how wonderful it would be to add an MSD crank trigger to run COP on an LA. MPFI and a nice LSA. I researched the parts and looked at other shortfalls of the wedge. It just doesn't make sense to do if you look at how easy it is to just get a 3g Hemi. Way not worth it to stick with LA.
Now, I love the LA and I have put mega dollars in building 2 of them and put good money into building a few others. However, for my 'cuda I really want that ability to drive across country and get decent fuel mileage making level power.
The design limitations of the LA and wedge engines makes it where it has to keep it from eating itself the more power you make. With modern engines you can make power at higher levels before the inefficiencies start catching up with it. It's really about efficiency of design. Everything was designed beautifully from the get go. There has to be a lot of re-design with older engines to make them efficient and have big power.

You mean something like this?

 

[racerjoe]

Ok, so you are saying peak flow number comparisons aren't going to be the best way to compare cylinder heads. Fair enough.



Can you explain that a little more? Better in what way? Packaging? Smaller valve cover?



I'm not trying to say you can't get a LA/Magnum to cold start and idle. I'm just saying that a carb'ed 408 isn't going to do either as well as a 5.7 or 6.4. And the more ragged edge the 408 is built, the less likely it will do it without constant tweaking.



I guess I am looking at it from an "other than theoretical" position. I love the ide a of a W2 headed smallblock. But the idea of finding all the parts and making them work together makes me say a 5.7 is the better way. Would a W2 outrun a 5.7 if they were equally built? Maybe, don't really care. Could you build a W2 headed motor that has equal drivability as a small cammed 5.7 and still outrun it? I have doubts.

I would love to see that done though. Don't get me wrong. And it might already have been done. I know @racerjoe has a trick SBM with EFI and CNP. Maybe he would be a good one to give input on building a nice driving SBM that get's good fuel economy and makes great power. Another one is @goldduster318. He has a fully EFI'ed SBM and even a T56.

I guess they way I see it, I can buy a BP 465 hp crate motor for $9K and get probably 16 mpg. Or I can do a complete 5.7 swap, including a 6.4 cam and intake, and make about the same power but with 25+ mpg and better drivability. Maybe as you assert the G3 Hemi head isn't as good as the Edelbrocks on the BP motor, but the results kind of say otherwise.

I run a 408", 242@ .050"/.594 lift solid roller cam, Indybrock heads, 9.5 compression with sequential fuel and spark EFI. TKO500 trans with a 3.91 gear. I've never optimized the tune for fuel economy, but I don't see any reason why I couldn't get 18-19MPG out of it by simply taking some fuel out of it at and advancing the timing to around 40-42 at cruise speed. I haven't tracked MPG lately, but the last time I did, I drove like a normal person and it got around 16MPG. Throw a 6 speed in it, or even a 3.23 gear with an optimized tune, I bet 20MPG is easily attainable. My car idles at 850-875RPM.

All this being said, it's a great running motor, cold starts well, idles well, makes good power, but I still want to G3 swap my car.....Maybe I'm a glutton for punishment.

 

[Rat Bastid]

While I'm sure some of the EFI manufactures have had some growing pains, I'd be willing to bet 75% of the problems with EFI is the user or the method in which it was installed.

IMO if you don't fully understand how EFI works and you want to "DIY" it, stick to your carb. If you are willing to pay someone that knows what they are doing, have at it. I always think its comical when someone blames the components when they don't work correctly, but it wasn't installed correctly.

I can make the exact same argument about carbs. Today, guys are willing to spend hours and and hours learning EFI and they wouldn‘t/didn’t spend 1% of that time learning carburation.

A very wise man (not me) once said the best EFI is carburation.

 

[go-fish]

You mean something like this?

View attachment 1715996245

That is cool. Looks like it would appear stock if you put a factory air cleaner on it. I think Rat Bastard (or the reincarnation of Yellow Rose) got his panties in a wad when I said that the "shortfalls" when referring to wedge engines. The very next post I made I stated that "shortfalls" really wasn't the word I should have used but, yet, he continues being pissy about it days later.

I think that the LA platform is awesome, I hold it dear to my heart. I have a 650 hp Procharged 408. I have a 422 built by IMM that is making 550. I have a 318 with ported Speedmasters that probably makes around 360-380. I am not here to **** on them.

What I was saying is that as I have come to desire EFI, Coil on Plug, correct pushrod angle, better sealing, EFI, ECU tuning ........ I just think getting a 3G Hemi from a low miles wrecked car or crate would be easier. They can make good, reliable power and will drive across country trouble free. One thing I was referring to with the comparison to LA is that you have to add a lot of the components I am talking about to an LA that are part of the 3G design. I have been looking at 48 degree R blocks everytime one comes up for sale, I've priced the crank triggers, I have purchased Pro Flo 4 for the 422 and priced Holley components for MPFI. On top of all that you still have to buy normal engine part like rotating assemblies and heads when building an LA like that. With the 3G route you can find Hellcat engines for $15,000. When all said and done I have more than that in the 422 and I still have a 59 degree 340 block, no crank trigger, and no COP. Also, I still wouldn't want to drive the 422 engine from coast to coast.

Sorry Rat Bastard, all I can say is, "Get over it". I think you and I are thinking about two different ideas of how we want our respective engines to be built. I have absolute zero intrest in racing in a straight line. Personally, I think it's boring. Again, get over it. I'm not going to respond to you because you are asking questions without having the willingness to have your mind changed.

 

[racerjoe]

I can make the exact same argument about carbs. Today, guys are willing to spend hours and and hours learning EFI and they wouldn‘t/didn’t spend 1% of that time learning carburation.

A very wise man (not me) once said the best EFI is carburation.

I'm not going to get into a pissing match over which is better. Everyone has a choice on which flavor ice cream they like.

I personally, will never buy another carb. I'll admit I have spent considerable time learning EFI (self taught), making changes is as easy as a keystroke on the computer. Not to mention it can be done on the fly.

I completely understand any type of wiring/electrical system isn't everyone's forte'. Being an electrical engineer, I've heard anything and everything you can imagine from people who don't understand electricity. If someone doesn't understand how a 3 way light switch works, they need to stay away from EFI. But don't go bashing it saying it's trash. Perhaps change the statement to, I don't understand EFI, so it isn't for me.
I'm uneducated on the process of making gasoline, but that isn't making me bash gas and move to an electric car!

 

[DionR]

I think Rat Bastard (or the reincarnation of Yellow Rose)...

Rat Bastid = YellowRose?

I know YellowRose got banned awhile ago and people talked about him creating a new account, but never saw anything that made me think he ever came back.

 

[racerjoe]

That is cool. Looks like it would appear stock if you put a factory air cleaner on it. I think Rat Bastard (or the reincarnation of Yellow Rose) got his panties in a wad when I said that the "shortfalls" when referring to wedge engines. The very next post I made I stated that "shortfalls" really wasn't the word I should have used but, yet, he continues being pissy about it days later.

I think that the LA platform is awesome, I hold it dear to my heart. I have a 650 hp Procharged 408. I have a 422 built by IMM that is making 550. I have a 318 with ported Speedmasters that probably makes around 360-380. I am not here to **** on them.

What I was saying is that as I have come to desire EFI, Coil on Plug, correct pushrod angle, better sealing, EFI, ECU tuning ........ I just think getting a 3G Hemi from a low miles wrecked car or crate would be easier. They can make good, reliable power and will drive across country trouble free. One thing I was referring to with the comparison to LA is that you have to add a lot of the components I am talking about to an LA that are part of the 3G design. I have been looking at 48 degree R blocks everytime one comes up for sale, I've priced the crank triggers, I have purchased Pro Flo 4 for the 422 and priced Holley components for MPFI. On top of all that you still have to buy normal engine part like rotating assemblies and heads when building an LA like that. With the 3G route you can find Hellcat engines for $15,000. When all said and done I have more than that in the 422 and I still have a 59 degree 340 block, no crank trigger, and no COP. Also, I still wouldn't want to drive the 422 engine from coast to coast.

Sorry Rat Bastard, all I can say is, "Get over it". I think you and I are thinking about two different ideas of how we want our respective engines to be built. I have absolute zero intrest in racing in a straight line. Personally, I think it's boring. Again, get over it. I'm not going to respond to you because you are asking questions without having the willingness to have your mind changed.

Like this....lol. "stock appearing" is what I was going for. That's why the coils aren't on the valve covers. I wasn't happy about switching to the fabricated aluminum covers since it takes away some of the stock look, but I was at my wits end with the damn oil leaks from the stamped steel factory valve covers. I bet a G3 doesn't have oil leak problems....
No need to convince me about the G3 benefits. Just as I stated in a previous post that I'll never buy another carb, I'll also never build another LA engine.

 

[DionR]

Thats why comparing engines from different era’s is so difficult. When you update the older engine and make it what it should be then you don’t see the big performance differences.

I have a problem with this. Again, you are comparing different generations of engines. That’s wrong.

But that's the point of the whole question. We aren't driving Pro Stock motors or BBC, so we compare what is available for the average human. And talking about comparing the G3 to an LS is almost as pointless as most people on here don't want to run an LS.

So the available list (in my mind anyway) is:

Small Block Mopar
Big Block Mopar
G3 Hemi

There just isn't anything else that I can think of. Are there better motors? Maybe, but for most of the people on this forum, they aren't an option. As an example, the Dodge NASCAR motors are floating around and would be absolutely wicked to run. There was one in Drag Week last year. But the cubic dollars required make it a non-starter for me and get's even lower on the list when I think about something I would want to drive cross country.

Can a SBM or BBM be update with the tech that a G3 has? Certainly, to a point. But will it result in the same HP and drivability of the G3? Maybe, but maybe not?

Personally, I think @racerjoe and @goldduster318 have their SBM at about the pinnacle for a reasonable build. There is certainly stuff left on the table (48 degree block, even bigger heads, etc.) but not sure how much that would add beyond more HP. I found comments from several years ago when @Johnny Mac was with Pace and he said an Eagle was 460-480 HP with a cam swap, which seems pretty comparable to both those motors. But I just don't see the efficiency from the old motors that I see in the new ones.

I would love to see someone build a 383 or 400 combo to compare. Unfortunately, just like the small block, it will never have VCT or a variable length intake. And the EFI intake will be custom because I have yet to see a B motor intake cast for EFI. But at 460-500 HP it would probably be a great motor. Unfortunately, you can also buy a 6.4 that makes 600+ HP NA and will probably still drive better than a 600+ HP B motor even with EFI and all the other tech you can build into it.

 

[DionR]

Like this....lol. "stock appearing" is what I was going for. That's why the coils aren't on the valve covers. I wasn't happy about switching to the fabricated aluminum covers since it takes away some of the stock look, but I was at my wits end with the damn oil leaks from the stamped steel factory valve covers. I bet a G3 doesn't have oil leak problems....
No need to convince me about the G3 benefits. Just as I stated in a previous post that I'll never buy another carb, I'll also never build another LA engine.

View attachment 1715996256

Absolutely wicked motor. One of my favorite builds on this site.

 

[DionR]

Just thought of something else a G3 has that a SBM/BBM won't.

11. Symmetrical ports

I might be wrong, but seems like I read somewhere that a symmetrical port is an advantage. Pretty sure the Chevy SB2 motor for NASCAR was based around that advantage. But maybe not? Just seems like there was an advantage.

 

[Super-Cuda]

You mean something like this?

View attachment 1715996245

I get what you are saying about Gen 3 engines racerjoe , all very good points not to mention that parts are readily available at any Dodge dealer coast to coast.

But ... DAMMM !! That LA Engine is hotrodding at its finest!

Absolute awesomeness!!

Much respect for the build!

Cheers!

 

[RustyRatRod]

While I'm sure some of the EFI manufactures have had some growing pains, I'd be willing to bet 75% of the problems with EFI is the user or the method in which it was installed.

IMO if you don't fully understand how EFI works and you want to "DIY" it, stick to your carb. If you are willing to pay someone that knows what they are doing, have at it. I always think its comical when someone blames the components when they don't work correctly, but it wasn't installed correctly.

Oh I have no doubt. My point was, that the systems are nowhere near as plug and play as these manufacturers would have you believe. And yeah, I think a lot of people need to stay away from EFI and stick with carburetors. Such as myself, I have nowhere NEAR the desire to use EFI.