I need schooling - old vs. new engines

[racerjoe]

I get what you are saying about Gen 3 engines racerjoe , all very good points not to mention that parts are readily available at any Dodge dealer coast to coast.

But ... DAMMM !! That LA Engine is hotrodding at its finest!

Absolute awesomeness!!

Much respect for the build!

Cheers!

Thanks for the kind words. I've probably spent more time thinking about how I wanted this thing to end up than I care to discuss. I guess that time was worth it vs. watching football (or some other meaningless activity) all weekend for my whole life. Some modifications pain me, while I don't mind doing others. For me, it's all about a timeless look and making things look like it could have come that way. I can't tell you how many non-mopar people just walk past my car like it's any other Duster with 18" wheels. There's lots of Easter eggs all over it.
It WILL have a G3 at some point and while it took me a while to accept that I will lose this "factoryish" look. But it will be done to look like it came in the car.

 

[George Jets]

Happy, Happy

Starts, Runs and Performs nicely.

Hot Rod tip:
Upgrading to the mopar mini starters make them start like they have fuel injection, while in fact running a carburetor .

 

[66fs]

You can have performance and mpg. Been doing it since the 70's. Carbs and all. How much HP do you want or need? Any motor that sits between your fenders. Why spend the coin for a new drivetrain and cobble it into your 60's or 70's A Body? Just buy a new car.

 

[go-fish]

I’m glad there are no hard and fast rules to muscle cars. Everything would be built to just drive to the local cruise spot or go 1/4 mile at a time. Some people want to do different things.

 

[MopaR&D]

You can have performance and mpg. Been doing it since the 70's. Carbs and all. How much HP do you want or need? Any motor that sits between your fenders. Why spend the coin for a new drivetrain and cobble it into your 60's or 70's A Body? Just buy a new car.

There's a point where that doesn't work out so well, I'd say around 600 HP. At that power level you're pushing the limits of a garden-variety LA block (and need thousands in aftermarket heads, cam, intake, carbs) and to get the 25+ MPG you'd need to "cobble" in some kind of overdrive trans which you'd have to do for a G3 Hemi anyway. G3 6.4L can hit 600 HP with a big cam and CASCAR intake, no need for head work or internals. So at that point it's kind of a wash, either dump money into a max-effort pump-gas SBM or dump money into parts to swap a new Hemi. And if you go with the Hemi there's far more potential power to be had.

With that said I have a 2014 5.7L sitting in storage but the 450-hp 5.9L Magnum/LA runs so well in my Duster I currently have no reason to swap. That engine has Cometic head gaskets and head studs plus factory Magnum short blocks are known to safely handle ~15 psi of boost so when I'm ready for more power it's simply a matter of bolting on a Procharger. On the topic of carbs as well, the engine currently runs fantastic with the 750 cfm Street Demon but when I'm playing with boost I'm gonna want EFI and electronic timing control. Yeah blow-through carb would work but I want that closed-loop AFR management too where I don't need to change jets when the weather or altitude changes.

I'd buy a modern Hemi car if they didn't all weigh as much as an old C-body or more. Just going off wheelbase and weight that's basically what a modern Challenger is, a 2-door C-body with 12" taken out of the wheelbase. They're friggin yuge and it really bums me out. I watched a video of a guy on YouTube who swapped a stock 6.4L SRT Hemi into a Duster with a T-56, since it's about 800 lbs lighter than a modern Challenger that car is as fast as a stock Hellcat with 200 less HP naturally aspirated and reliability of a factory-stock engine.

 

[66fs]

There's a point where that doesn't work out so well, I'd say around 600 HP. At that power level you're pushing the limits of a garden-variety LA block (and need thousands in aftermarket heads, cam, intake, carbs) and to get the 25+ MPG you'd need to "cobble" in some kind of overdrive trans which you'd have to do for a G3 Hemi anyway. G3 6.4L can hit 600 HP with a big cam and CASCAR intake, no need for head work or internals. So at that point it's kind of a wash, either dump money into a max-effort pump-gas SBM or dump money into parts to swap a new Hemi. And if you go with the Hemi there's far more potential power to be had.

With that said I have a 2014 5.7L sitting in storage but the 450-hp 5.9L Magnum/LA runs so well in my Duster I currently have no reason to swap. That engine has Cometic head gaskets and head studs plus factory Magnum short blocks are known to safely handle ~15 psi of boost so when I'm ready for more power it's simply a matter of bolting on a Procharger. On the topic of carbs as well, the engine currently runs fantastic with the 750 cfm Street Demon but when I'm playing with boost I'm gonna want EFI and electronic timing control. Yeah blow-through carb would work but I want that closed-loop AFR management too where I don't need to change jets when the weather or altitude changes.

I'd buy a modern Hemi car if they didn't all weigh as much as an old C-body or more. Just going off wheelbase and weight that's basically what a modern Challenger is, a 2-door C-body with 12" taken out of the wheelbase. They're friggin yuge and it really bums me out. I watched a video of a guy on YouTube who swapped a stock 6.4L SRT Hemi into a Duster with a T-56, since it's about 800 lbs lighter than a modern Challenger that car is as fast as a stock Hellcat with 200 less HP naturally aspirated and reliability of a factory-stock engine.

I'm not talking 600 hp, to me that is ridiculous. When I was younger and had all the time in the world we souped up everything from 170 cu in Plymouth's and Fords to Chrysler big blocks. They were all a blast to drive. My daily driver was a Hurst shifted, 4 speed, 64 Barracuda, 273 with about 300 hp that started and ran like it was FI. That was in the 70's and got mid 20's steady highway cruising. Want to burn rubber, spend an hour and swap gears to 4.10's. My 2009 Challenger R/T 6 speed manual gets 28 mpg. My 383 auto 68 Cuda gets high teens steady cruising on the highway. No mystery, efficiency goes up and you get the best of both worlds, FI or not. I don't even run heads past 1971. I run factory Carter carbs, a MP chrome box and distributor, and solid lifter cams. Are you faster, probably, but I already figured out I'll never have the time or money to play that game. Street only, fast, handles well, stone axe reliable is what I build for. No special parts, no computers, no cutting, just good machining and quality parts. I have always had one since I was 19, and that was 48 years ago. That is what A Bodies do best. The 2009 Challenger rolls easy and is very quiet, great car, but they are two different animals. I put more miles a year on the 66 Barracuda.

 

[MopaR&D]

I'm not talking 600 hp, to me that is ridiculous. When I was younger and had all the time in the world we souped up everything from 170 cu in Plymouth's and Fords to Chrysler big blocks. They were all a blast to drive. My daily driver was a Hurst shifted, 4 speed, 64 Barracuda, 273 with about 300 hp that started and ran like it was FI. That was in the 70's and got mid 20's steady highway cruising. Want to burn rubber, spend an hour and swap gears to 4.10's. My 2009 Challenger R/T 6 speed manual gets 28 mpg. My 383 auto 68 Cuda gets high teens steady cruising on the highway. No mystery, efficiency goes up and you get the best of both worlds, FI or not. I don't even run heads past 1971. I run factory Carter carbs, a MP chrome box and distributor, and solid lifter cams. Are you faster, probably, but I already figured out I'll never have the time or money to play that game. Street only, fast, handles well, stone axe reliable is what I build for. No special parts, no computers, no cutting, just good machining and quality parts. I have always had one since I was 19, and that was 48 years ago. That is what A Bodies do best. The 2009 Challenger rolls easy and is very quiet, great car, but they are two different animals. I put more miles a year on the 66 Barracuda.

Oh for sure I don't know when I'll personally have the "need" for 600 HP I was just talking hypothetically as to what scenario a modern engine swap becomes "practical". I've been having tons of fun with "only" 300whp (uncorrected at 5000' elevation) in my Duster and it's been reliable as a hammer for almost 5 years and 12k+ miles. Hence why I have no rush to swap my 5.7 Hemi or add a Procharger. Although one big upgrade I will definitely be doing once funds allow is a 5- or 6-speed manual with overdrive. I built/am building my Duster for auto-x, track day type stuff and would also like to try out 1/2-mile drags at some point and the 904 with cheapo loose 2600-stall converter it currently has sucks for those applications.

Although once I move to Texas where 600+ HP street cars are the norm I may feel more compelled to up the ante lol. I can have plenty of fun driving up in the mountains in CO by myself or ripping around a tiny road course at PPIR but Texas is a different world in comparison. I've never been one to feel the need to compete with other cars all that much and just enjoy what I have but I'm only 31 and I'd like to at least try my hand at having something fast enough to compete with modern fast cars. Maybe it won't be satisfying and I'll just go back to playing with my stuff by myself lol who knows but I want to give it a shot eventually.

 

[Rat Bastid]

But that's the point of the whole question. We aren't driving Pro Stock motors or BBC, so we compare what is available for the average human. And talking about comparing the G3 to an LS is almost as pointless as most people on here don't want to run an LS.

So the available list (in my mind anyway) is:

Small Block Mopar
Big Block Mopar
G3 Hemi

There just isn't anything else that I can think of. Are there better motors? Maybe, but for most of the people on this forum, they aren't an option. As an example, the Dodge NASCAR motors are floating around and would be absolutely wicked to run. There was one in Drag Week last year. But the cubic dollars required make it a non-starter for me and get's even lower on the list when I think about something I would want to drive cross country.

Can a SBM or BBM be update with the tech that a G3 has? Certainly, to a point. But will it result in the same HP and drivability of the G3? Maybe, but maybe not?

Personally, I think @racerjoe and @goldduster318 have their SBM at about the pinnacle for a reasonable build. There is certainly stuff left on the table (48 degree block, even bigger heads, etc.) but not sure how much that would add beyond more HP. I found comments from several years ago when @Johnny Mac was with Pace and he said an Eagle was 460-480 HP with a cam swap, which seems pretty comparable to both those motors. But I just don't see the efficiency from the old motors that I see in the new ones.

I would love to see someone build a 383 or 400 combo to compare. Unfortunately, just like the small block, it will never have VCT or a variable length intake. And the EFI intake will be custom because I have yet to see a B motor intake cast for EFI. But at 460-500 HP it would probably be a great motor. Unfortunately, you can also buy a 6.4 that makes 600+ HP NA and will probably still drive better than a 600+ HP B motor even with EFI and all the other tech you can build into it.

Who said anything about Pro Stock? And why are you even posting? I want the dude who said the G3 Hemi “fixed” or “overcame” or whatever he said the wedge head.

Thats what I want to hear. What did ANY hemi of ANY generation that “overcame” wedge heads?

You can compare a G1 Hemi to a 413 or whatever from that era. The wedge head wins.

G2? Same thing. The 440 the KILLS the Hemi.

G3…you can’t compare anything Chrysler to it because they spent all their efforts for marketing. So it’s G3 VS LS and the LS wins.

Im waiting to hear what the G3 Hemi “overcame”.

 

[Rat Bastid]

Rat Bastid = YellowRose?

I know YellowRose got banned awhile ago and people talked about him creating a new account, but never saw anything that made me think he ever came back.

Maybe you want to keep up or step away.

 

[Rat Bastid]

Oh for sure I don't know when I'll personally have the "need" for 600 HP I was just talking hypothetically as to what scenario a modern engine swap becomes "practical". I've been having tons of fun with "only" 300whp (uncorrected at 5000' elevation) in my Duster and it's been reliable as a hammer for almost 5 years and 12k+ miles. Hence why I have no rush to swap my 5.7 Hemi or add a Procharger. Although one big upgrade I will definitely be doing once funds allow is a 5- or 6-speed manual with overdrive. I built/am building my Duster for auto-x, track day type stuff and would also like to try out 1/2-mile drags at some point and the 904 with cheapo loose 2600-stall converter it currently has sucks for those applications.

Although once I move to Texas where 600+ HP street cars are the norm I may feel more compelled to up the ante lol. I can have plenty of fun driving up in the mountains in CO by myself or ripping around a tiny road course at PPIR but Texas is a different world in comparison. I've never been one to feel the need to compete with other cars all that much and just enjoy what I have but I'm only 31 and I'd like to at least try my hand at having something fast enough to compete with modern fast cars. Maybe it won't be satisfying and I'll just go back to playing with my stuff by myself lol who knows but I want to give it a shot eventually.

How reliable is a G3 Hemi that’s 600 HP NA? They are PRODUCTION BLOCKS, not race blocks. Not even close.

 

[George Jets]

Rat Bastid = YellowRose?

I know YellowRose got banned awhile ago and people talked about him creating a new account, but never saw anything that made me think he ever came back.

Hmmm . . . .

 

[DionR]

Who said anything about Pro Stock?

You, and I quote:

As I’ve said, flow numbers are a piss poor way to evaluate a cylinder head. It’s the easiest way to compare heads, but at best its a poor way of doing it.

Of course, the guys selling heads love to post flow numbers because that’s what sells. David Reher wrote an article in the National Dragster about this and I sure many others have as well. I’m more interested in the shape of the curve and how the port sounds on a flow bench than I am the flow numbers. Thats something you learn after you test a half dozen heads on a flow bench. That and most every article and shot like that are dead wrong.

Talking NA, the wedge head is always better than a Hemi. While the flow numbers look great and line of sight ports are the best you lose when the intake and exhaust valves oppose each other. Again, talking NA.

It doesn’t take long to see how the BBC just KILLS the Hemi NA. You have almost line of sight ports but the exhaust valve isn’t opposed to the intake valve. That changes overlap flow. Most people either don’t know or don’t care about overlap flow, but it’s a big deal.

Another example is the Pro Stock “hemi“ which wasn’t a Hemi. The closest that engine was to a Hemi was the skirted block. And all big blocks have that shitty design. Too bad GM copied that junk. Of course, the OE’s are more concerned with noise and stuff than actual power so there is that.

Anyway, that “Hemi” engine had issues that made it a different cat than a wedge. The skirted block is a power eater. The fix for that was machining that skirt off the passenger side of the block and building an oil pan that for the block after that was done. I also know it was 2 hours just to pull the pan and not jack it up and four hours (or more) to put it back on and get it sealed. When you pull 20 or so inches of vacuum in the engine the thing needs to be sealed tight. It was a nightmare and I saw that junk up close.

Another thing that kills the Hemi (NA) is the huge port with a short runner length. The G3 isn’t any different. Big, short port. What killed the last version of the “hemi” in Pro Stock was that short port. When NHRA passed the EFI and RPM rules, they KNEW it would kill the Hemi and they still did it.

The Hemi was some 700-800 RPM higher than the wedge headed engines. That’s HUGE. So when those two rules were passed, the big short port became a liability. You couldn’t get the manifold runner long enough with the current EFI rules so the Hemi was now way underpowered at the 10,500 RPM rule.

You will ask why does this matter. It matters because you or I can’t change the physics involved in internal combustion engine science.

Enough of that. As far as getting a carbed engine to start and idle like EFI isnt that hard. What it won’t do is start and sit there and idle while you drink a latte.

If you get it right it will start and idle and not be pig fat rich either. But you’d better have your **** together when you plan the build or you‘ll never get it.

Lets not forget I’m not disputing that machining has gotten far better than it was in the 60’s and 70’s. It’s not even close, but we are still dealing with production engines.

To that end, I can’t recall a single virgin 340 that was anywhere near 10.5:1 compression ratio. I found some that were 9.2:1 and that was it. It’s a huge jump from 9.2:1 to 10.5:1, and it doesnt always show up on a water brake dyno.

The newer stuff is far closer to the nominal compression ratio called out. I can also tell you that unless you actually pour the head and cylinder and do the math you most likely don’t have the compression ratio you think you do. That’s why I question guys on here who say “I’m about 10:1“ or whatever. The majority of the time it’s not even close to what they think it is. I can’t tell you how many times an engine came in with “X” compression ratio and was cammed for that and it wasn’t close. And they ran like garbage.

Thats why comparing engines from different era’s is so difficult. When you update the older engine and make it what it should be then you don’t see the big performance differences.

So I compare a G2 Hemi with wedge headed engines of its era and the G3 Hemi with wedge headed engines of its era. And it always ends up that the Hemi (NA) is the loser.

I seems that most of your points have been from some lofty theoretical position so as to imply that you live in a realm where you have unlimited funds and can build whatever you want. That leaves me to believe you work in the circles like Pro Stock and have corporate level money.

Kind of doubt most people on here can do more than try and do the best they can with what is available.

Kind of like shaking your fist at the sun for setting when it does, being upset that the G3 exists and that Mopar didn't do up a wedge head is pointless.

Does it fix every issue? No. Does it have compromises? Sure enough. Could it have been better? Absolutely. Is there something available that is better without having to step outside of the brand? Don't think so. It is what it is.

 

[DionR]

Maybe you want to keep up or step away.

Keeping up would require a level of interest I just can't generate. Don't really care, never really did. But I catch things in passing and the comment caught my eye.

Sorry that I haven't been following your every post, nor that of any of your alter-egos. But by all means, carry on without me.

 

[Super-Cuda]

What's a W8 or 9 head flow? And what do they cost? Do you have to buy a Ritter block to run them?

The W8 or 9 argument just seems like a different application to me. Can't see someone building a W8 motor to drive it on Route 66. Seems like the W8 head is more drag race or circle track application, which doesn't really seam to fit the thread as well.

Not really an apples to apples comparison to talk about W8 or 9 heads since only a select few can afford to run such a beast. Maybe the new TF head would be a better comparison? Oh wait they only beat the pre-Eagle 5.7 head but can't keep up with the Eagle head or the Apache 6.4 head out of the box.

Think 5.9 Magnum block, 4" crank, TF heads and intake and a cam and compression combo you can drive to another state with. Then compare that to an 100K mile '09+ 5.7 with a cam and headers. The 5.7 will probably make close to the same numbers, but be much easier to drive, get far better mileage, not leak oil and start in the morning without drama.

Agree with you DionR.

The one thing that some seem to be missing here is the overall performance value of the complete package. If you are talking about comparing a stock LA platform to the G-3 platform . there's no contest. G-3 wins.

If you take the FI and computer systems off the Gen 3, you have altered the factory dynamics and performance as it wasn't intended to perform with a carb. Carb systems were develped for the Gen 3 , as far as I'm concerned, for people who didn't want to figure out how to transplant the complete package including fuel injection and the accompanying computer controls. It's the easy way out offered by the aftermarket to simplify installing a newer style hemi in an older vehicle.

" Ya, It's got a Hemi"

Great Marketing ploy drawing upon the phenominal success of the original hemi's in Nascar and NHRA.

Examples of fantastic builds on here of gen 3 transplants with the complete platform including Realwings phenominal award winning 69 Barracuda Formula S Convertible . No way that car performs as it did when original. Now it gets great fuel mileage, idles all day in traffic and has great power to boot. Best of both worlds , exactly what a lot of members on here are looking for.

Also, the Demon has 840 Horsepower, gets good fuel mileage, is emissions compliant and comes with a warranty. Think about what you have to do to get 840HP from an LA engine! It would hardly be driveable.

As far as Im concerned, fantastic engineering from Dodge makes this all possible.

 

[Rat Bastid]

You, and I quote:



I seems that most of your points have been from some lofty theoretical position so as to imply that you live in a realm where you have unlimited funds and can build whatever you want. That leaves me to believe you work in the circles like Pro Stock and have corporate level money.

Kind of doubt most people on here can do more than try and do the best they can with what is available.

Kind of like shaking your fist at the sun for setting when it does, being upset that the G3 exists and that Mopar didn't do up a wedge head is pointless.

Does it fix every issue? No. Does it have compromises? Sure enough. Could it have been better? Absolutely. Is there something available that is better without having to step outside of the brand? Don't think so. It is what it is.

Right. But comparing Pro Stock heads to Pro Stock heads, not Pro Stock heads to something else.

Im exactly NOT talking about comparing an LA package with a G3 anything. That’s what YOU arent getting.

Again, there was a post where the claim was made that the G3 Hemi “overcame” the deficiencies of the wedge.

I want to know what those are. It’s simple really. A quack claim was made and no proof was given to back it up.

Surely as hard as you defend the Hemi you can tell me what deficiencies have been overcome.

 

[DionR]

Right. But comparing Pro Stock heads to Pro Stock heads, not Pro Stock heads to something else.

Im exactly NOT talking about comparing an LA package with a G3 anything. That’s what YOU arent getting.

The thing is, that's all we have to work with in reality. As I outline earlier, the option is there to use either a SBM, BBM or G3. So a comparison between an LA and a G3 is completely reasonable because both could be run.

At the same time, comparing Pro Stock head to Pro Stock head is pointless. It has no bearing in reality, and no usefulness to mere mortals. No one here is racing Pro Stock motors, and no one is going to go out and cast their own wedge head for a G3 block, so you work with what is available.

And just to make sure it hasn't escaped your notice, the title of the thread is "i need schooling old vs new engines". The point was a comparison of old vs new.

Again, there was a post where the claim was made that the G3 Hemi “overcame” the deficiencies of the wedge.

I want to know what those are. It’s simple really. A quack claim was made and no proof was given to back it up.

And I asked how much a W8 or 9 head cost, and what "all the faults" in the Hemi are. So there are multiple questions that haven't been answered.

Surely as hard as you defend the Hemi you can tell me what deficiencies have been overcome.

I'm a proponent of the package, as AAndrews pointed out. I don't pretend to be an expert in the G3 or in anything for that matter. But here are the things I can come up with:

1. Better flow - I understand you don't see that, but the facts say it makes good power so...
2. Symmetrical ports
3. Dual plugs - This was certainly done to make up for a deficiency, but can't see how it isn't better than one plug
4. Aluminum - Certainly available in SBM/BBM versions, but these are OEM and cheap (comparably)
5. Valve covers don't leak
6. They look cool -

One note on the "package" idea. You mentioned that the port length is too short on the G3. But if you include the intake manifold port, it is significantly longer. Longer than anything you can get on an LA, and the length can even be variable.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Right. But comparing Pro Stock heads to Pro Stock heads, not Pro Stock heads to something else.

Im exactly NOT talking about comparing an LA package with a G3 anything. That’s what YOU arent getting.

Again, there was a post where the claim was made that the G3 Hemi “overcame” the deficiencies of the wedge.

I want to know what those are. It’s simple really. A quack claim was made and no proof was given to back it up.

Surely as hard as you defend the Hemi you can tell me what deficiencies have been overcome.

The wedge was the best of everything. That's why it won out in 1958 and again after the generation 2. From a production standpoint, a Hemi anything is a cost nightmare. They're cool to look at and they can haul the mail with a blower. That's really what they were made for. Beyond that, the B and RB wins out.

 

[DionR]

You can compare a G2 Hemi with a decent 440 and the 440 beats it up.

So why did the 440 disappear from NASCAR when the G2 Hemi hit the track?

And why are there no BBM's in the top 10 in 2021 ET records for the F.A.S.T. cars? The fastest BBM is 13 mph slower than the fastest Hemi and 8 mph slower than the closest Hemi.

And none of those are boosted, so...

Is the 440 a better motor on the street? Might be. Is the intended application and complete package a part of that comparison? Absolutely.

But to use a blank statement like above seems to be too narrow of a focus.

 

[DionR]

12. Cross bolted block. Not just skirted, but cross bolted, on all caps. Might give up power, but adds strength and rigidity.
13. Solid cam tunnel. Again, a stronger and stiffer block.
14. One piece rear main seal
15. Flat oil pan rail. Easier to seal.

 

[go-fish]

But here are the things I can come up with:

1. Better flow - I understand you don't see that, but the facts say it makes good power so...
2. Symmetrical ports
3. Dual plugs - This was certainly done to make up for a deficiency, but can't see how it isn't better than one plug
4. Aluminum - Certainly available in SBM/BBM versions, but these are OEM and cheap (comparably)
5. Valve covers don't leak
6. They look cool -

The LA has less than optimal 59* lifters. The intake ports are tiny. No coil on plug. Computer controlled engine management.

I've posted some of these advantages and while I am the one that really twisted Mr. Bastard's labia I did, in my very next post after saying it, retract the "shortfalls" statement I made about the LA. I love the LA but the things in the quote above are areas where the 3G Hemi improved on the LA's design.

Mr. Bastard will get no direct response from me and I don't even think he's looking at my posts anymore but I just can't converse with someone who asks questions yet are not remotely interested in what the other person's viewpoint is and is not willing to have their mind changed. EVEN IF this person thinks there is no way in Hell they can have their mind changed civil discourse REQUIRES open minded conversation.

When I get into political or religious conversations with my friends I genuinely listen and they listen to me. A memorable experience was a conversation with a friend's mom. She is staunchly side A and I am side B. I knew that engaging in conversation to change her mind was futile. We talked for about 2 hours, sharing ideas, and listening. Neither of us changed our mind but at the end of the evening we thanked each other for the conversation and both agreed that it was a great time talking and listening.

I think Mr. Bastard said I needed to "grow up" and answer the questions he posed to me (in which he has no desire of actually considering), demanding that I engage further. A childish action. Well, I have no interest and simply had to say, "Fine, you're right. The LA is superior." just to end my interaction. Yet, he doesn't want to accept that either and I get a X. This guy is a control freak. Probably somewhat of a lonely fella too because he seems to really enjoy spinning the same yarn with myself, DionR, MopaR&D, AAndrews, and others. Poor guy.

 

[Super-Cuda]

The LA has less than optimal 59* lifters. The intake ports are tiny. No coil on plug. Computer controlled engine management.

I've posted some of these advantages and while I am the one that really twisted Mr. Bastard's labia I did, in my very next post after saying it, retract the "shortfalls" statement I made about the LA. I love the LA but the things in the quote above are areas where the 3G Hemi improved on the LA's design.

Mr. Bastard will get no direct response from me and I don't even think he's looking at my posts anymore but I just can't converse with someone who asks questions yet are not remotely interested in what the other person's viewpoint is and is not willing to have their mind changed. EVEN IF this person thinks there is no way in Hell they can have their mind changed civil discourse REQUIRES open minded conversation.

When I get into political or religious conversations with my friends I genuinely listen and they listen to me. A memorable experience was a conversation with a friend's mom. She is staunchly side A and I am side B. I knew that engaging in conversation to change her mind was futile. We talked for about 2 hours, sharing ideas, and listening. Neither of us changed our mind but at the end of the evening we thanked each other for the conversation and both agreed that it was a great time talking and listening.

I think Mr. Bastard said I needed to "grow up" and answer the questions he posed to me (in which he has no desire of actually considering), demanding that I engage further. A childish action. Well, I have no interest and simply had to say, "Fine, you're right. The LA is superior." just to end my interaction. Yet, he doesn't want to accept that either and I get a X. This guy is a control freak. Probably somewhat of a lonely fella too because he seems to really enjoy spinning the same yarn with myself, DionR, MopaR&D, AAndrews, and others. Poor guy.

To be as cordial as possible as this is a forum for discussion, I will give Mr Bastid his due. He is talking about engines only, not assembled packages that have been tested . He is correct that Gen 3 hemi blocks and cylinder heads alone using mechanical based carburation systems and none of the engine management electronics won't outperform the wedge motors especially using the W-series heads. Also, the older Gen 2 Hemi's were troublesome, needing plenty of tuning to stay running properly.

But, as the rest of us commented here, when you put together a "package' using the G-3 engine , associated fuel management and ignition systems that are computer controlled, and put it in a plug and play package its unbeatable. No La, BB or Rb engine in its "as produced' format will come close to a Gen 3 for driveability , fuel economy and, in the case of the HellCrate, raw power.

Here's my 408 Magnum . balanced , blueprinted, professional build 517hp at the crank.

Approximate cost $30,000,00

Here's a 2017 Hellcat engine and transmission, approx 830 HP.

$14,000 US.

Guess where I should have invested my money!

 

[MopaR&D]

How reliable is a G3 Hemi that’s 600 HP NA? They are PRODUCTION BLOCKS, not race blocks. Not even close.

They're a hell of a lot more reliable than a PRODUCTION BLOCK small block wedge at that power level. I don't need to try to prove it, the proof is out there. By now hundreds of guys have pushed the limits of modern Hemi production blocks and the breaking point is MUCH higher than the old LA/Magnum wedge blocks. Put a 5.7 Hemi block and a Magnum block side-by-side and compare, the extra strength is obvious. I don't know where you're finding all this negative information about them but I can't count how many 600+ HP production block Hemis I've seen on Youtube, this forum, FB groups, in person... and they don't blow up. Seriously with all the G3's running around I've heard of stock pistons breaking or powdered-metal connecting rods snapping but blocks breaking? That's extremely rare and guys go crazy with these things.

It's a shame but I have to agree with some of the above posters, arguing with you is like talking to a wall. You disagree but provide little to no real evidence and explanation of HOW and WHY we are all "wrong". I'm done with this as well, I'll continue talking with all the other misinformed(?) modern Hemi advocates and if some day I build a 600-HP N/A G3 Hemi and break the block, I'll post it on here.

 

[408 swinger]

I have a 6.1 based 426 gen 3 that I raced from 2014 to 2019. Dyno'ed 730 @ 7300, 535 @ 5300. Engine is still together, just not in a car currently. Factory juice roller lifters on a 250ish intake/ 260ish exhaust cam. Factory rockers and shafts tied together with the Stanke hardware. Carb with tall Ritter/Drag Pak intake. Heavy ported early 5.7 heads. Best e.t. and mph on same run with 3500ft DA was 10.14 @ 132 mph. 3300 race weight with driver 74 Swinger. So, FACTORY block, FACTORY head castings, FACTORY valvetrain. Not reliable? Whatever. All for 20g. You ain't building 700+ hp LA for 20 or under. Not all new parts anyway. My build was 100 percent NEW parts.

 

[408 swinger]

Another example: My son's 73 Scamp. FACTORY 6.1 long block with a 230s @ .050 cam and Cascar intake. 750 dp. 3400ish race weight with me in it. 235/60 ET street with 3.91 gear. Best so far is 11.81 @114. Not close to the horsepower in question. Just another example of junk.

 

[408 swinger]

I will follow up by saying that I'm not on the "Only gen 3!" bandwagon. I'm a small block guy at heart. Really, truly am. Would love to do a W8 or W9 headed high winder. Just not in the budget. Therefore, the gen 3 stepped in. That was still a little out of reach, but, made it happen. Six of one, half dozen of another.