Let's breakdown my runs!

[318willrun]

Maybe it's just me, but it seems people that spend the money to build strokers don't want to hear (or believe) success stories about basic builds running very well. That would be an AWESOME thread! "Strokers vs Stock stroke"... Oh boy, I bet that could get real interesting!! Oh yes, I know strokers perform, but, but... but....... there is a chance the fastest of the fast just may not be stroker.....

 

[j par]

Right now the game plan is to take the car back up to test and tune in two weeks. Take every tool I own and another carb. Since I was unable to use my Holley last time and adjust timing I will do that. This trip just sucked. It turned into a social event with people all over the car and trailer. Half the tools were lost. No lights. Just a complete freaking mess. I had fun at the time but looking back on it I see it was a waste.

GREAT GAME PLAN!! I'm inthe same boat- trying to spend as little as possible to get the car up to its full potential. Even tthough my problems seem more Chassis related, I sure wish I had those little edelbrock heads

 

[j par]

Maybe it's just me, but it seems people that spend the money to build strokers don't want to hear (or believe) success stories about basic builds running very well. That would be an AWESOME thread! "Strokers vs Stock stroke"... Oh boy, I bet that could get real interesting!! Oh yes, I know strokers perform, but, but... but....... there is a chance the fastest of the fast just may not be stroker.....

I'm at a complete loss on how this post is helping the op ?? Or wait a minute ..... could this be a shot at someone else !?? LOL careful, you could hurt someone's feelers? LOL
RPM'S VS. CUBIC IN. ? very good, but you should start the thread because the clique won't comment if I do.
oops , I did it again ! LMAO

 

[moper]

Well you all remember my post from the other day about finally getting back to the track. Well it didn't go so good. First pass I ran a 13.5 at 99 mph with it cutting out on the big end. Went back to the trailer to put my Holley on and the thing was leaking fuel out of the line port. Took it off and put the edelbrock on. Checked the timing and initial is at 18 which is good. Total was at 34 so I thought I would bring it up a bit. Dropped the wrench down between the bell housing and floor so it stayyed there.

At first I was shifting 5700 and crossing the line at 5000. I started shifting at 6000 on my next run and ran the same thing with the same trap rpm. Does this mean my converter is trash? It's a 2800 stall with 3:55 and 26 inch tire and trap speed was 99.

Next two runs the car layyed over right off the line and I babied it down the track.

So you had a cutting out problem right out off the trailer? Was it above a certin rpm in every gear, or only in high gear running to the stripe?

 

[moper]

Before you do anything, you need to make a few full passes with no cutting out. Regardless of the ET or mph.

 

[D-50394]

If you have the same heads,cam and intake on a stock stroke small block and one that has more stroke. The stroker motor will be faster.
I wish my motor in my D50 was bigger. It is only a 3.79 stroke crank in a 340 block. 394 ci.

 

[rmchrgr]

To the OP -

I believe that besides taking every tool you own and a different carb. next time you go, you need a PLAN.

If you are serious about tuning this particular combo to perform at it's best, it's going to take some effort. You need to take steps in small increments and try hard not to make sweeping changes.

That being said - if you are unsure about how the cam is installed, then that would be the first thing to address since that's a big job that takes some particular tools and a knowledge of what you are looking at. Again, like Rob said, it's a pretty big cam and should be sufficient for your needs. Degree the cam first to make sure it is optimized. "lining up the dots" on the timing chain sprockets is not the preferred method for installing a performance cam unless you take it to a dyno and find that the combo makes the best power with the cam installed straight up. That is probably not the case here so you need to go back and handle that step first.

Once you get it installed right, then you need to go over all the other pieces to the puzzle and make sure they are up to snuff. Do a compression test like mentioned already and a leak down test. It would be beneficial to do those tests now before you tackle the cam degree job to see if there are any changes afterwords.

Degreeing the cam can also tell you whether the balancer is off. If you have a stock one, the outer ring can slip giving you a false timing reading. You can verify TDC with a tool and check the balancer to see if it's correct against the timing tab.

Make sure the lifters have the right pre-load and the rockers are all good. Not sure how old all this stuff is but if you want to get deep into the valvetrain, check the valve springs for proper installed height and whether they have enough pressure. That's probably an extreme measure here though unless you really want to get involved with it. But, it is information that might help somewhere.

So once you're confident things are good then set the timing and try to baseline the carb. Like I said previously, your timing might be a little too advanced but it is close. 18 degrees seems like a lot of initial with a cam that may not be optimized. Make sure the plugs are gapped correctly and are the proper heat range for those heads.

Check vacuum when setting the timing, no one ever does that. A good way to determine initial timing is with vacuum; get the car running with your vacuum gauge installed. Advance the distributor while watching vacuum. Keep advancing until vacuum stops increasing then back it off 1 degree. That should be your initial.

Then you need to dial in your total advance and how fast it comes on. It should be "all in" by 2,000-2,500 rpm. If it's still advancing past that point then you want to change the springs in the distributor so it comes in sooner.

Do you have a fuel pressure gauge on the fuel line? Are your carb floats set correctly? Are the idle transfer slots set correctly? Throttle cable opens the secondaries up properly?

And as I said before, get an air fuel gauge they are immensely helpful when you are trying to tune because of the graphical interface and real-time feedback.

There is so much to do with this combo before you start in with strokers and cams and such. Dial this one in and make it do what you want. You will know what to do with the next combo once you're at that point.

Also, you have not mentioned much about the chassis in this car and half of ET is chassis set up. Maybe let us know how the car is set up when you take it down the track to see if you are on the right track. Frame connectors are a must as are good springs and shocks, a proper front end alignment, good brakes that don't drag etc.

This all takes a while, be patient and enjoy the tuning process. Make notes or keep a log too so you know what changes did what.

Hope that helps.

 

[crackedback]

Here's a list of a bunch of mag builds. Some numbers are a little aggressive on HP in some cases, Gives an idea of what some stuff could make.

http://www.mopar1.us/dyno.html

 

[318willrun]

Here's a list of a bunch of mag builds. Some numbers are a little aggressive on HP in some cases, Gives an idea of what some stuff could make.

http://www.mopar1.us/dyno.html

Did I read #8 right?? I think it said 460 hp and almost 500 ft lbs of torque on a stock 360 crank and rods using what cam???? Did it really say 284/484 ??? Same cam as the OP ? Hmmmmmmm....... Wonder what that would do in a 3000 lb Duster with 3.55 gears??

 

[stroked340]

LMFAO..those numbers were posted in another thread.obviously they used a very happy dyno,don't believe everything printed

 

[j par]

Did I read #8 right?? I think it said 460 hp and almost 500 ft lbs of torque on a stock 360 crank and rods using what cam???? Did it really say 284/484 ??? Same cam as the OP ? Hmmmmmmm....... Wonder what that would do in a 3000 lb Duster with 3.55 gears??

okay I'll start the thread - I'm not scared .....
should I put it here on the racing forum or general discussion?
Lets leave this thread to the op's though please I think that's the polite thing to do?

 

[doogievlg]

To the OP -

I believe that besides taking every tool you own and a different carb. next time you go, you need a PLAN.

If you are serious about tuning this particular combo to perform at it's best, it's going to take some effort. You need to take steps in small increments and try hard not to make sweeping changes.

That being said - if you are unsure about how the cam is installed, then that would be the first thing to address since that's a big job that takes some particular tools and a knowledge of what you are looking at. Again, like Rob said, it's a pretty big cam and should be sufficient for your needs. Degree the cam first to make sure it is optimized. "lining up the dots" on the timing chain sprockets is not the preferred method for installing a performance cam unless you take it to a dyno and find that the combo makes the best power with the cam installed straight up. That is probably not the case here so you need to go back and handle that step first.

Once you get it installed right, then you need to go over all the other pieces to the puzzle and make sure they are up to snuff. Do a compression test like mentioned already and a leak down test. It would be beneficial to do those tests now before you tackle the cam degree job to see if there are any changes afterwords.

Degreeing the cam can also tell you whether the balancer is off. If you have a stock one, the outer ring can slip giving you a false timing reading. You can verify TDC with a tool and check the balancer to see if it's correct against the timing tab.

Make sure the lifters have the right pre-load and the rockers are all good. Not sure how old all this stuff is but if you want to get deep into the valvetrain, check the valve springs for proper installed height and whether they have enough pressure. That's probably an extreme measure here though unless you really want to get involved with it. But, it is information that might help somewhere.

So once you're confident things are good then set the timing and try to baseline the carb. Like I said previously, your timing might be a little too advanced but it is close. 18 degrees seems like a lot of initial with a cam that may not be optimized. Make sure the plugs are gapped correctly and are the proper heat range for those heads.

Check vacuum when setting the timing, no one ever does that. A good way to determine initial timing is with vacuum; get the car running with your vacuum gauge installed. Advance the distributor while watching vacuum. Keep advancing until vacuum stops increasing then back it off 1 degree. That should be your initial.

Then you need to dial in your total advance and how fast it comes on. It should be "all in" by 2,000-2,500 rpm. If it's still advancing past that point then you want to change the springs in the distributor so it comes in sooner.

Do you have a fuel pressure gauge on the fuel line? Are your carb floats set correctly? Are the idle transfer slots set correctly? Throttle cable opens the secondaries up properly?

And as I said before, get an air fuel gauge they are immensely helpful when you are trying to tune because of the graphical interface and real-time feedback.

There is so much to do with this combo before you start in with strokers and cams and such. Dial this one in and make it do what you want. You will know what to do with the next combo once you're at that point.

Also, you have not mentioned much about the chassis in this car and half of ET is chassis set up. Maybe let us know how the car is set up when you take it down the track to see if you are on the right track. Frame connectors are a must as are good springs and shocks, a proper front end alignment, good brakes that don't drag etc.

This all takes a while, be patient and enjoy the tuning process. Make notes or keep a log too so you know what changes did what.

Hope that helps.

Best post so far. I just saw this as I am falling asleep so tomorrow I will try me best to answer all questions.

 

[forphorty]

It is the older version of the cam shaft and I can't remember what we installed it at. It is at the shop written in a notebook. I at first thought it could be valves floating but I doubt it at that low of an rpm. I have another holley I am putting back together so as soon as it goes together I'll put it on the car and see what it does. I am getting 6.5 lbs of pressure before the carb.

I was real close to going to a new fuel pump but with that pressure it seems unnecessary.

Is the fuel pressure gauge mounted where you can read it going down the track? The fuel pressure with the car sitting still will not tell you much. You need to know the pressure with the car in motion at WOT. Don't worry about swapping the cam just yet. You have other issues to address first.

 

[318willrun]

okay I'll start the thread - I'm not scared .....
should I put it here on the racing forum or general discussion?
Lets leave this thread to the op's though please I think that's the polite thing to do?

I think it would be fun, and I have no problem with either stockers or strokers, but I would think Mopar General Discussion or Small Block Mopar would be the place to take it. I would say it would have to be something THEY have now, not a buddy, or in 1989, and keep it to small blocks only.... But it would be your thread, you decide.

 

[doogievlg]

Is the fuel pressure gauge mounted where you can read it going down the track? The fuel pressure with the car sitting still will not tell you much. You need to know the pressure with the car in motion at WOT. Don't worry about swapping the cam just yet. You have other issues to address first.

No I was using one mounted to the carb fuel line and revved it in the garage.

 

[doogievlg]

To the OP -

I believe that besides taking every tool you own and a different carb. next time you go, you need a PLAN.

If you are serious about tuning this particular combo to perform at it's best, it's going to take some effort. You need to take steps in small increments and try hard not to make sweeping changes.

That being said - if you are unsure about how the cam is installed, then that would be the first thing to address since that's a big job that takes some particular tools and a knowledge of what you are looking at. Again, like Rob said, it's a pretty big cam and should be sufficient for your needs. Degree the cam first to make sure it is optimized. "lining up the dots" on the timing chain sprockets is not the preferred method for installing a performance cam unless you take it to a dyno and find that the combo makes the best power with the cam installed straight up. That is probably not the case here so you need to go back and handle that step first.

Once you get it installed right, then you need to go over all the other pieces to the puzzle and make sure they are up to snuff. Do a compression test like mentioned already and a leak down test. It would be beneficial to do those tests now before you tackle the cam degree job to see if there are any changes afterwords.

Degreeing the cam can also tell you whether the balancer is off. If you have a stock one, the outer ring can slip giving you a false timing reading. You can verify TDC with a tool and check the balancer to see if it's correct against the timing tab.

Make sure the lifters have the right pre-load and the rockers are all good. Not sure how old all this stuff is but if you want to get deep into the valvetrain, check the valve springs for proper installed height and whether they have enough pressure. That's probably an extreme measure here though unless you really want to get involved with it. But, it is information that might help somewhere.

So once you're confident things are good then set the timing and try to baseline the carb. Like I said previously, your timing might be a little too advanced but it is close. 18 degrees seems like a lot of initial with a cam that may not be optimized. Make sure the plugs are gapped correctly and are the proper heat range for those heads.

Check vacuum when setting the timing, no one ever does that. A good way to determine initial timing is with vacuum; get the car running with your vacuum gauge installed. Advance the distributor while watching vacuum. Keep advancing until vacuum stops increasing then back it off 1 degree. That should be your initial.

Then you need to dial in your total advance and how fast it comes on. It should be "all in" by 2,000-2,500 rpm. If it's still advancing past that point then you want to change the springs in the distributor so it comes in sooner.

Do you have a fuel pressure gauge on the fuel line? Are your carb floats set correctly? Are the idle transfer slots set correctly? Throttle cable opens the secondaries up properly?

And as I said before, get an air fuel gauge they are immensely helpful when you are trying to tune because of the graphical interface and real-time feedback.

There is so much to do with this combo before you start in with strokers and cams and such. Dial this one in and make it do what you want. You will know what to do with the next combo once you're at that point.

Also, you have not mentioned much about the chassis in this car and half of ET is chassis set up. Maybe let us know how the car is set up when you take it down the track to see if you are on the right track. Frame connectors are a must as are good springs and shocks, a proper front end alignment, good brakes that don't drag etc.

This all takes a while, be patient and enjoy the tuning process. Make notes or keep a log too so you know what changes did what.

Hope that helps.

Ok I am going to order the gauge to do a compression test today. The chassis on the car is very dated but the car is hooking up great. The carb I was running that might is the Eddie 650 avs and is only about a year old. The plugs are all Ngk with the part number edelbrock recommended and I gapped them to spec for the heads. I want to say it was .40.

I'm going to by the gauges you recommended for the air/fuel and compression test. These seem like something that I will use in the future anyways. I'm also going to get a fuel pressure guage to put in the car that I can watch. If all that checks out I will pull the distributor and check it and probably recurve it since I was planning on doing that already. I also am getting a new baseplate for an old carb that I know is set up great for this engine and I will take that to the track and change it there.

I don't know where all this talk of strokers came from. This motor is a good reliable motor that's less then two years old. I'm not going to put a stroker in this car. I know I have the correct parts to get this car into the twelves with patience. There is a older man that's been racing and building small block mopars longer then I have been alive that lives near me. He has always been very helpful and I am sure if I asked him for help he would come over in a few minutes. Eventually I might give him a call but I hate bothering people so it will be a last resort.

 

[rmchrgr]

Well, OK, sounds like a good start. However...

You didn't reply about degreeing the cam so I am not sure that you understand the importance of verifying this aspect of the combo. Will it run like you have it? Of course. But, you may be leaving something on the table.

Again, it is a big job. The whole front of the motor has to come apart. Beyond the need for new gaskets and fluids, you need a degree wheel, something to find TDC (piston stop) and a dial indicator. If you find that the cam is not installed properly then you will need to change it either with offset bushings or a multi-keyway chain sprocket.

Realistically, this may be something that you don't want to get involved in since the car is running OK but understand that doing anything else without verifying where the cam is installed is pissing in the wind. A cam is a basic timing device, if it's off then everything is off. The 484 cam center line is 108 and the installed center line is supposed to be 106. I never like to push their stuff but the Mopar Small Block "bible" will outline all this in very dry detail.

A compression test will mostly only tell you if there is nothing grossly wrong in any cylinder. A few psi of difference is nothing to worry much about but if one cylinder is significantly lower than the others you may have a sealing issue.

A leak down test gives a more accurate indication of any issues and can help pinpoint valve leaks. Not sure if a leak down test will help indicate where the cam is installed but if you have air going past a valve at a point other than when its supposed to be then that might be your answer.

If you go to the Holley, then float level is pretty important as is the idle transfer slots and the throttle cable/linkage are operating right. Is it a vac. secondary? Once you get it idling OK then you can start playing with the secondary springs, jets and power valves. If it's a double pumper then you will be introduced into the wonderful world of pump cams.

An air fuel gauge will only be beneficial if you verify where the cam is degreed and have everything else base lined with a vacuum gauge. The gauge will help dial in the transfers, power valve and jets at specific throttle openings and under different loads. An A/F gauge requires an 02 sensor so you need to have a sensor bung installed into your exhaust a few inches before the collector. I would hold off on that until you take your initial steps and get it running consistently. Here's a good article to read through about tuning at the drags with a wide band system.

And really, the timing needs to be optimal before you start messing with the carb. Your steps should be perform engine health tests prior to making any changes > verify cam installation > get engine running and baseline timing > start messing with the carb and possibly get an A/F gauge.

Also know that running down a track is totally different that running on the street so if you tune the car on the street and take it to the track don't expect it to be where it's supposed to be.

I went through all of this over the last few years with my car. I loved it but it can be frustrating sometimes especially when things don't work or make sense. I spent hours bent over a hot engine with a timing light, a vacuum gauge and a screwdriver tweaking this and that. I'd take it for a ride, watch the A/F gauge, wonder what went wrong and try something else. I'd think I'd had it nailed down then I'd take it down the track and it would be all over the place, like what happened?

It ran OK but it could have been better. I changed a bunch of stuff over time and got it close to it's best time by the previous owner (11.97) but I felt like it should have been in the 11.70s. I only managed a 12.20 out of it. I took the engine apart and it was tired. It had a broken piston ring in #5 so I was fighting a mechanical issue that no amount of tuning could help. That's why you need to verify your cam.

Hope that helps.

 

[doogievlg]

Well, OK, sounds like a good start. However...

You didn't reply about degreeing the cam so I am not sure that you understand the importance of verifying this aspect of the combo. Will it run like you have it? Of course. But, you may be leaving something on the table.

Again, it is a big job. The whole front of the motor has to come apart. Beyond the need for new gaskets and fluids, you need a degree wheel, something to find TDC (piston stop) and a dial indicator. If you find that the cam is not installed properly then you will need to change it either with offset bushings or a multi-keyway chain sprocket.

Realistically, this may be something that you don't want to get involved in since the car is running OK but understand that doing anything else without verifying where the cam is installed is pissing in the wind. A cam is a basic timing device, if it's off then everything is off. The 484 cam center line is 108 and the installed center line is supposed to be 106. I never like to push their stuff but the Mopar Small Block "bible" will outline all this in very dry detail.

A compression test will mostly only tell you if there is nothing grossly wrong in any cylinder. A few psi of difference is nothing to worry much about but if one cylinder is significantly lower than the others you may have a sealing issue.

A leak down test gives a more accurate indication of any issues and can help pinpoint valve leaks. Not sure if a leak down test will help indicate where the cam is installed but if you have air going past a valve at a point other than when its supposed to be then that might be your answer.

If you go to the Holley, then float level is pretty important as is the idle transfer slots and the throttle cable/linkage are operating right. Is it a vac. secondary? Once you get it idling OK then you can start playing with the secondary springs, jets and power valves. If it's a double pumper then you will be introduced into the wonderful world of pump cams.

An air fuel gauge will only be beneficial if you verify where the cam is degreed and have everything else base lined with a vacuum gauge. The gauge will help dial in the transfers, power valve and jets at specific throttle openings and under different loads. An A/F gauge requires an 02 sensor so you need to have a sensor bung installed into your exhaust a few inches before the collector. I would hold off on that until you take your initial steps and get it running consistently. Here's a good article to read through about tuning at the drags with a wide band system.

And really, the timing needs to be optimal before you start messing with the carb. Your steps should be perform engine health tests prior to making any changes > verify cam installation > get engine running and baseline timing > start messing with the carb and possibly get an A/F gauge.

Also know that running down a track is totally different that running on the street so if you tune the car on the street and take it to the track don't expect it to be where it's supposed to be.

I went through all of this over the last few years with my car. I loved it but it can be frustrating sometimes especially when things don't work or make sense. I spent hours bent over a hot engine with a timing light, a vacuum gauge and a screwdriver tweaking this and that. I'd take it for a ride, watch the A/F gauge, wonder what went wrong and try something else. I'd think I'd had it nailed down then I'd take it down the track and it would be all over the place, like what happened?

It ran OK but it could have been better. I changed a bunch of stuff over time and got it close to it's best time by the previous owner (11.97) but I felt like it should have been in the 11.70s. I only managed a 12.20 out of it. I took the engine apart and it was tired. It had a broken piston ring in #5 so I was fighting a mechanical issue that no amount of tuning could help. That's why you need to verify your cam.

Hope that helps.

Very helpful. I will have someone with more experience help me degree the cam that is certian. One of my Holleys has vacume secondaries and the one with a broken baseplate is a double pumper. The one thing I am going to do today is figure out why the hell the good one is leaking. Everything seemed tight but it was leaking out of the port where the fuel line goes in. I am pretty sure using tape on those types of fittings isn't recommended so it should be a good time.

 

[j par]

Before you do anything, you need to make a few full passes with no cutting out. Regardless of the ET or mph.

This x2

 

[D-50394]

This x2

I agree also.....

 

[moper]

Check the adaptor in the bowl of the Holley. Sometimes they can be overtightened and they crack and leak. Also make sure the adaptor fitting is tight and uses the gasket. I find more leaks in the adaptors and between the adaptor and bowl than in the fuel line.

Also - get a log book. Document where you start from on everything, and the result.

 

[7e5hangten360]

why didnt anybody talk about gears and converter? that 484 cam will like a 3500 stall and steeper gears like 4.10s with 26 in tires.