Lifter Clatter

Discussion in 'Small Block Mopar Engine' started by Toluene56, Sep 15, 2018.

  1. Toluene56

    Toluene56 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    550
    Likes Received:
    207
    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2009
    Location:
    reno
    View My Photos
    Local Time:
    3:43 PM
    Hello Ladies and Gents. I'm trying to determine whether or not I have a Lifter bleed down or pump up issue. I believe it's bleed down.
    Now my engine block is a blueprint 408 short block (Roller block). To get everything up and running with my Lunati 60413 cam, I used stock roller lifters. I have recently swapped to 4.30 gears and found close to 6000+ rpm (at the end of the track) the sucker just kinda levels off and I can feel the odd surge, not quite like valve float. But on the return road back to the pits I can hear the lifters clattering like an old worn out diesel. Wait about 10 minutes fire it back up and everything pumps back up again and sounds normal and runs normal. This leads me to believe that at high rpm the lifters are bleeding down as opposed to pumping up and causing the valves to hang open. Note- I've also noticed the lifters do bleed down pretty quick, I've zero lashed them and set about 1/4 turn for a preload.

    Just for info, through the traps i'm seeing about 6200-6300rpm.
    and yes.. I know.. "use a solid cam".

    I'm looking for some opinions on this. Also if anyone knows of any kinds of lifters that will help alleviate this issue?

    Thanks!
     
  2. brian6pac

    brian6pac Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,882
    Likes Received:
    1413
    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Location:
    N.E.Ohio
    Local Time:
    6:43 PM
    1/4 turn = about .010, you need to go 1.5 turns to get .0625 or 1/16" preload
     
  3. Toluene56

    Toluene56 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    550
    Likes Received:
    207
    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2009
    Location:
    reno
    View My Photos
    Local Time:
    3:43 PM
    I get the clatter after high rpm pulls no matter how I have the preload. I've been messing with it for the last few months. Which is why i'm thinking a slower bleed performance lifter would be a good fit instead of dumping a good chunk on all new solid setup.
     
  4. brian6pac

    brian6pac Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,882
    Likes Received:
    1413
    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Location:
    N.E.Ohio
    Local Time:
    6:43 PM
    how much oil pressure do you have?
     
  5. Jadaharabi

    Jadaharabi FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

    Messages:
    2,830
    Likes Received:
    2178
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Location:
    Peoria, Illinois
    Local Time:
    5:43 PM
    Throw a set of solid rollers in it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Toluene56

      Toluene56 Well-Known Member

      Messages:
      550
      Likes Received:
      207
      Joined:
      Nov 9, 2009
      Location:
      reno
      View My Photos
      Local Time:
      3:43 PM
      going down the track at 5-6k rpm about 50psi.. hot @ 180degrees.
       
    • Toluene56

      Toluene56 Well-Known Member

      Messages:
      550
      Likes Received:
      207
      Joined:
      Nov 9, 2009
      Location:
      reno
      View My Photos
      Local Time:
      3:43 PM
      Solid roller lifters work properly with a Hyd Roller cam? I was honestly thinking about trying it. lol
       
    • brian6pac

      brian6pac Well-Known Member

      Messages:
      2,882
      Likes Received:
      1413
      Joined:
      Nov 15, 2016
      Location:
      N.E.Ohio
      Local Time:
      6:43 PM
      I think the ramps are different but I would call a cam grinder to find out for sure.
       
    • Jadaharabi

      Jadaharabi FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

      Messages:
      2,830
      Likes Received:
      2178
      Joined:
      Jan 8, 2016
      Location:
      Peoria, Illinois
      Local Time:
      5:43 PM
      .
      Yellow Rose needs to step in here an explain it.
       
    • Toluene56

      Toluene56 Well-Known Member

      Messages:
      550
      Likes Received:
      207
      Joined:
      Nov 9, 2009
      Location:
      reno
      View My Photos
      Local Time:
      3:43 PM
      I don't see why the solid lifters couldn't be used. They're just a lifter without the cushion effect of the hydraulic. The only real difference is the ramp rates of the solid vs hyd cam itself.
      If anything it should allow a bit more rpm and eliminate my bleedown issue, it just won't have the profile of a true solid cam. I hope i'm on the right track with this thought.
       
    • BigBlockMopar

      BigBlockMopar BigBlockMember

      Messages:
      1,505
      Likes Received:
      463
      Joined:
      May 1, 2011
      Location:
      Netherlands
      Local Time:
      12:43 AM
      Hydraulic cams have faster/shorter ramps.
      Solids on a hydraulic cam should run better. But make sure you have a very tight lash or else the valve train will be hammered.
       
      • Like Like x 1
      • Agree Agree x 1
      • Toluene56

        Toluene56 Well-Known Member

        Messages:
        550
        Likes Received:
        207
        Joined:
        Nov 9, 2009
        Location:
        reno
        View My Photos
        Local Time:
        3:43 PM
        Funny I just read something I found on google where they said .002 lash was used. NOw I can't find it for the life of me.
         
      • IQ52

        IQ52 Well-Known Member

        Messages:
        2,230
        Likes Received:
        1377
        Joined:
        Jul 30, 2011
        Location:
        Idaho
        Local Time:
        4:43 PM
        Some hydraulic rollers and solid rollers use the same lobes, but not all of them are that way. That being the case you must run very tight lash when installing solid lifters on a hydraulic cam. It gets even more touchy if you have aluminum heads, because, the lash setting is about the same as the aluminum head will expand. I run solid lifters on hydraulic cams and use .005"-.006" cold lash on iron heads and .000"-.002" cold lash on aluminum heads. The aluminum heads will expand and increase the lash about .006" to .006"-.008" lash total. I don't like any more lash on a hydraulic cam because of the ramp opening design.
         
        • Like Like x 1
        • Agree Agree x 1
        • Toluene56

          Toluene56 Well-Known Member

          Messages:
          550
          Likes Received:
          207
          Joined:
          Nov 9, 2009
          Location:
          reno
          View My Photos
          Local Time:
          3:43 PM
          awesome.. Thanks for the info. All of you.
           
        • BigBlockMopar

          BigBlockMopar BigBlockMember

          Messages:
          1,505
          Likes Received:
          463
          Joined:
          May 1, 2011
          Location:
          Netherlands
          Local Time:
          12:43 AM
          I'm running solids on a hydraulic FT cam.
          All steel 360 with 318 '302' heads.

          If I put anything less then .006" lash in the valve train (cold) the engine will idle rough when warmed up.
           
        • '63GT

          '63GT Well-Known Member

          Messages:
          420
          Likes Received:
          323
          Joined:
          Jun 9, 2018
          Location:
          Turlock, CA.
          Local Time:
          3:43 PM
          Solid lifters are used on Hyd cams all the time in NHRA Stock Eliminator. It's a major reason those fly like they do. However, some lash is necessary to get away from base circle runout, expansion etc. Furthermore, Hyd 'seat' specs are at .006 lobe lift. and profiles are favorable for the HYD/less than solid lifter. Gentler ramps. connect those dots...

          Solids have a 'clearance ramp' to gently 'take up' the running clearance or lash for the same BC, Expansion reasons. Solid seat specs are typically in the .015 - .020 lobe lift range even though recommended 'lash' is in the .022 - .028 range. These parameters are squeezed on 'tight lash' solids.
          Rate of lift is more aggressive on solids cause the lifters don't the 'problems' the Hyd cousins do. the pushrods take that beating..

          Your OEM roller lifters will have to be modified in the 'check' or 'valving' inside the lifter to make them hold under pressure. Or at least disassembled to verify the integrity of the 'check' system.
          But I suspect you may be having some pressure issues.. Even just a slight amount of cavitation will severely compromise a Hyd lifter under power.
          My 2cents anyway. for what it's worth
           
        • nm9stheham

          nm9stheham Well-Known Member

          Messages:
          9,233
          Likes Received:
          1840
          Joined:
          Dec 20, 2013
          Location:
          Waynesboro, VA
          Local Time:
          6:43 PM
          The clattering makes sense for the idea of bleeding down. But that won't hang the valves open... it'll do the opposite. What oil is being used?
          If they pump right up after sitting a bit, that that idea is making some sense.
           
        • Toluene56

          Toluene56 Well-Known Member

          Messages:
          550
          Likes Received:
          207
          Joined:
          Nov 9, 2009
          Location:
          reno
          View My Photos
          Local Time:
          3:43 PM
          I could see that as well.