lithium ion car and motorcycle batteries

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moparmat2000

moparmat2000

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I was looking at lithium ion batteries, as a friend of mine has a harley davidson softail. He ordered one of these. It was about $200, so its not cheap, but had 525 cold cranking amps, and is 2Lbs.

I looked into the car sized ones they are around 12Lbs, super expensive, and have around 1200 cold cranking amps.

For you electrical savvy guys, forgive my ignorance, but couldent you just use the 2Lb lithium ion motorcycle battery in your car, if it delivers the kind of advertised cranking amperage that it does ?

I was thinking, if the little 2LB motorcycle lithium ion battery can do the job of a regular sized lead acid one, i would make a dummy battery out of a hollowed out lead acid battery case, and i could put the cycle battery inside hiding it along with the relays for my headlights and electric fan. Keeping a stock appearance and shedding close to 25 LBs off the front end.

Any thoughts on this?
Matt
 
Might be a difference in MaH, or milli amp hours. I am probably wrong, so maybe a tech whiz can tell us.
 
The size of the battery has everything to do with how it works. Look up "reserve capacity" and read about it. You will begin to understand then.
 
Here is a good read on reserve capacity and why it is an important consideration for choosing an automotive battery. Generally, the larger a battery physically is, the greater its reserve capacity. There are exceptions, but not many. I personally have always thought reserve capacity is the single most important factory to consider when choosing a battery. Most people go after a mega amount of cold cranking amps (CCA) but the truth is, you only need about 1 CCA per cubic inch of engine displacement. IMO, reserve capacity is much more important.

http://www.optimabatteries.com/en-us/experience/power-source/battery-reserve-capacity/
 
Good ideas on battery basics,Rob. Sometimes the newest ,most expensive, item isn't really needed to get the job done.
 
Abodybomber said:
Good ideas on battery basics,Rob. Sometimes the newest ,most expensive, item isn't really needed to get the job done.
Click to expand...

Usually never, actually. But I am growing weary of trying to make that argument.
 
Very good read Rusty, I never thought about the reserve capacity. I was looking at the lightvweight, and getting away from the lead acid. The more plate surface area i guess i can prob assume the more capacity.

I am sure because of the light weight, and no lead/acid the car companies will start looking at these in a car sized reserve for new vehicles. Once produced en mass the costs will go down.

Now i was looking at the capacities of the Li batteries online. Typical motorcycle one has 25 minutes reserve. Can i assume correctly thats with everything switched on drawing max amperage out of the battery? To give it that rating? If so can that time be extended by making the electrical system more efficient? I plan on using LED bulbs for all circuits that would remain in a constant on position like taillight bulbs, running lamp/turn signal bulbs, dash lamps. The car wont have a stereo. Its a radio delete car, i am keeping it this way. Only big draw would be headlamps, electric fans on the engine.

What about using 2 Li motorcycle batteries with 25 min reserve connected in parallel? Your reserve should double to 50 minutes, amperage should double, voltage should stay the same.

Still light weight and compact at 4lbs, plus i think the reserve number a battery company uses is based on max amperage draw from the battery, because of accessory loading as a worst case scenario. If your total amp draw from the battery in lets say an alternator failure is less than what the manufacturer used to determine the reserve capacity, then shouldent your reserve capacity in minutes go up?

I am just throwing out some hypotheticals here. Is there anybody on this site with a battery/electrical backround here that can prove or disprove my theory on this?

Matt
 
Unless they have a special charger built-in you are not considering what else is behind the curtain. There also are significant safety concerns, including controlled discharge, containment, and protection in case of accident.
 
I wouldn't use a battery that drops power under 3.0v per cell. I use them in all of my rc cars. They are pretty tempermental. If one goes flat for too long you could have a dead cell. And there goes your battery, no recovery. Ill keep the heavier gel cell. Not worth it imo
 
Just a smattering of observation in no particular order:

- The reserve capacity in a standard car battery has more to do with the ability to crank the car at very cold temps and when really hot and the engine compression is high... moreso than being able to run anything in normal operation. Batteries lose their ability to produce current when cold and a higher reserve will limit that reduction. Yes, I know, CCA means 'cold cranking amps', but unfortunately, CCA's have become a marketing number more and more and less of a useful rating (to me). The reserve has been a better reflection of this ability.

- Lithium batteries have a much higher discharge rate ability than lead-acid. So they can advertise very high CCA's versus reserve capacity. So judging a Lithium battery by CCA's is going to be VERY misleading versus our CCA standards for lead acid batteries. And which means they go like crazy for a bit and then just die with little warning.

- This high discharge rate also means more potential danger in a short circuit in the car. The lithium batteries can deliver a lot more energy into a short than a lead acid battery. If you do this, make sure you have a good fusing system in the car. Using a lithium battery with old wiring seems like a pretty bad idea.

- Lithium ion batteries have around the same max temp rating as lead-acid, about 40 C. But putting your batteries in a closed box may be bad; you'll need some real air venting in your fake enclosure.

- Computer and aircraft battery fires with these batteries are for real. But, lead-acid battery internal shorts are for real too, and can lead to a lead-acid battery fire. Both usually result form similar causes: internal shorts.

- You are correct to think that paralleling 2 or 3 batteries will double or triple the AH capacity (AH means amp-hours). It just involves more maintenance of the interconnecting cables so that part is less appealing.

- I would be most concerned with the charging system and how it will charge the Lithium battery. The voltage is not matched quite right for a lithium battery so I would expect it to never be charged right. Standard older car charging voltage fluctuations and limits are not right for Lithium batteries and you will be almost certainly overcharging the Lithium battery, stressing it, and risking internal ruptures. This alone makes this Lithium idea a non-starter, if you pardon the expression.

- In line with the above: Now, I do not know why these batteries are now being offered for motorcycles and cars so that bears some additional reading. Perhaps they are one of the different Lithium types, or take advantage of newer auto charging systems' tighter voltage tolerances.

- BTW, having a light load in the cars electrical system has less to do with this than the OP seems to be thinking. That load is mostly sourced from the alternator when running, except when very heavily loaded or idling a lot. So, unless you are running the lights and heater blower a lot or idling a lot, the battery is just sitting there.
 
All my wiring is new repop wiring, excep the dash which i have gone thru, and cleaned up, and crimped and soldered all new packard 56 connectors. I plan on running a mini denso 50 or 55 amp alternator with solid state internal regulator.

I removed the amp gage from the dash circuit. I also converted the gage to volts. Wiring my alternator with a fusible link direct to the starter lug, bypassing the whole fire prone going thru the bulkhead connector deal. This should eliminate the old car alternator charging fluctuations, and issues related to old car wiring.

I am bringing these things up, since you guys dont know the condition of the wiring, or how the charging wire from the alt is routed, alternator i plan on using, etc for you to get a better picture of what i am working with.
 
BTW, here is an interesting blog with some actual experience with the Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries being used for storage. It is interesting for the internals of these batteries used to equalize cell charge and for other 'not so obvious' characteristics, like the fact that they cannot be safely recharged if they ever are overly-discharged... and the role that the internal circuit board plays in preventing this.
http://ka7oei.blogspot.com/2012/08/problems-with-lithium-iron-phosphate.html

And here is seller's informative site link:
http://www.powerstream.com/LLLF.htm

Putting in a new but still conventional auto charging system does not address the different charging process that is supposed to be used for these batteries. See the 2nd link. I now have to wonder if the Li motorcycle batteries have a more sophisticated internal circuit board to help manage the charging form a standard car or motorcycle type of system.
 
I jumped my telephone van using 2 Fios batteries ( familiar 5lb sealed 12V scooter batteries). In a simplistic setup, you only need your battery to star the alternator moving, then it provides all the power. There is a youtube videonof a guy using a capacitor pack to start his car, no battery at all.
 
I now have to wonder if the Li motorcycle batteries have a more sophisticated internal circuit board to help manage the charging form a standard car or motorcycle type of system.[/QUOTE]

Well the typical cycle batt with 25 min reserve, and 575 cranking amps is about $125

Now that the particulars of charging/discharging a Li pack are known, i also wonder if there is circuitry inside it for charging. For the price i would think so, plus most motorcycles the batteries are tucked away inside the frames lots of times under the seat. With no air circulation to keep them cool.

A HD softail has the battery under the seat, and the oil tank wraps around it. I would say thats a pretty hot environment.

I would imagine all the lawyer issues these companies would have if some biker got him a hot seat from a thermal runaway on a Li pack cooking his butt. Lol "baboon ***" comes to mind.

But it is a serious thought. Is there circuitry internal to these to maintain proper charge / discharge rates? If these batteries have this internal setup, then with the charging system i will be using, wouldent just linking 2 or 3 of the bike batts together in parallel work?
 
I am only speculating that the internal circuits may do this; it is by no means known to me. You would not be wise to make that a hard conclusion just because it sounds plausible. Read the links provided...... it discusses the internal circuit boards being there to equalize charge between cells that are linked in series inside a battery.... no other function is mentioned. That has nothing to do with paralleled batteries.

Time has to pass for some problems to show up and even more time for lawsuits .... so the time factor is not proof of anything.
 
nm9stheham said:
Just a smattering of observation in no particular order:

- The reserve capacity in a standard car battery has more to do with the ability to crank the car at very cold temps and when really hot and the engine compression is high... moreso than being able to run anything in normal operation.
Click to expand...


No sir. This is not correct. Reserve Capacity, or RC has a standard definition as created by The BCI or Battery Council International.

Reserve Capacity:

"The Battery Council International (BCI) has created a group of standardized specifications that help give consumers an apples to apples comparison from one product to the next. Cold cranking amps is one of those specifications, as is Reserve Capacity. So what is Reserve Capacity? It is a time measurement that explains how long a fully-charged battery can deliver 25 amps of current in an 80°F-environment, before the battery is discharged down to 10.5 volts."

That is the cut and dry definition of reserve capacity.
 
Lithium cells are a great power source. Very low weight compared to lead/acid and Nickel/Cadmium. There are many types of "Lithium" batteries. Unlike the Lithium Cobalt Oxide, which is used in the Boeing 787, the Lithium Iron Phosphate are somewhat safer. We have done extensive testing of the Lithium Iron Phosphate cells and battery configurations in a lab setting. We purposely shorted the charged lithium iron phosphate 26650P cells in a safe lab environment. Temperatures of 600C (1100F) were recorded! Please be careful with connecting several batteries in parallel. Proper buss bar sizing and insulation are critical. If you go the lithium route, one battery is safer. All tools that we used to work on the lithium cells were Plastisol coated in case one was dropped onto terminals. Once again, Please be careful using these batteries! If you go the lithium route, verify and replace any bad wiring, floating grounds, prior to installation. If these Lithium batteries get over discharged, they become bricks. If these batteries get overcharged, they become fire hazards. Hopefully(?) the internal safeties negate any of these issues. You will be spending big $$ for multiple lithium batteries compared to one lead acid battery, and have major safety concerns under the hood of your ride just to save 25 pounds of weight.
Good Luck, be ultra safe.
Seen below is the 787 battery that went into smoke mode. Last I read, there was NO red X that was identified as to why cell #6 went into overheat which lead to adjacent cells going also.
 

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For an example of what can be done with a lithium ion battery pack, search "White Zombie Datsun" o n youtube. Nuff said. lol
 
The biggest bug in your OE charging system isn't the connections etc. as Li batteries
are concerned,its the voltage ripple field output/management from the alt./reg.
team.As these are being marketed for the app.,I'm assuming they have an in-
ternal "fix" for that,which may or may not be affected by parallel teaming.Obviously
a little investigation and a call to the manufacturer are in order,but you may be fine
with the setup.I like the stealth approach w/the batt. case,but I agree some covert
cooling slots in the top of the case, and maybe a cabinet fan under the tray push-
ing up thru a hole and "drain drilled" section mite be wise.Prob. run that with a
thermostatic control and keep them in the "safe zone".
All that being said,is this a competition car,or just a toy?While I love trying new
equipment/technology,it seems like an awful lot of trouble to drop that weight,tho'
it is a significant chunk off the nose.However the overall weight dist. would be much
better served w/the standard trunk mount move,but not sure what you're after with
this swap.:happy1:
PS If your car starts on the 1st/2nd tap of the key you could theoretically get
away w/the bike batt.,but the first long crank time or sign of weakness in
the batt. and you'll be SOL
 
I am going for a sleeper street car. Trying to get the weight out of the front end to get it closer to a 50/50 weight distribution.

The intent is to have it appear as somewhat restored stock. I will be running a mini denso alt, denso mini starter, aluminum A-833, aluminum bellhousing, alum heads and intake, alum water pump, alum radiator. I am also installing heater delete plates, and leaving this out of the car as well.

I am making aluminum alternator brackets out of 1/8" 7075 T6 sheet stock aluminum for the lighter alternator, and i am looking into using a GM type ll ps pump, on another set of 1/8" aluminum brackets.

I am going to pull a set of inner fender shields out of fiberglass or carbon fiber using my originals as moulds. And could make a nice carbon fiber or fiberglass battery tray if i can mount lighter components in it.

I looked on unlimited fiberglasses website and they have a fiberglass bumper, and bumper brackets that total up to 4 pounds. I can get the bumper spectrachromed and it will look stock. I am going to weigh my front end sheetmetal. AAR fiberglass gave me a quote of 50lbs weight on their street glass front end w latchable hood. So i got to weigh mine and figure out the difference.

I am setting it up with an autocross type suspension setup. I have stock 340 bars. And these with a 1&1/4 hollow front sway bar should be fine with all the weight removed. No need for 1.03 bars.

Curb weight on a 67 notch w V8 topped off with fluids and fuel is 3100 lbs. I am trying to get it down to 2600 lbs curb weight.

I like the idea of a computer fan to cool the batteries, thru a hole cut in the battery tray. I was thinking of something like that.

Matt
 
I use anti-gravity batteries light weight 16v lithium battery in my car. Amazing how a 4lb battery can start and run the car 10's better and longer than the 54lb turbostart 16v I had in it. I was so impressed, I will be running one of their 12v in my 64 barracuda. Easiest 50lbs off the nose of the car ever.
 
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