Lithiun Ion Battery Caution

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nm9stheham

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Have been reading about a problem had with one of these new Li Ion car batteries over on a another forum. One caught on fire in a car, and if you read down in this thread, you see the OP conversed with the mfr, and was told that it was probably (and in general can be) caused by jump starting it...! Never knew that..... I won't be using any Li Ion batteries in my cars for general starting and operation..

Lithium Batteries in your Opel - Experiences?

Any other info appreciated.
 
With the problems with these batteries I have no idea how they got into vehicles. Seems like a real bad road. I build electronics for power wheelchairs, and up till lately we offered both 24 and 48V versions. They are Lith IRON and have an electronics package inside the battery to "manage" it. It regulates discharge rate and charging rate and a few other things. The package also breaks the entire battery into separate smaller batteries, "banks" for protection

You cannot take a LiFe battery (wheel chair) onto an aircraft
 
Yes, that is what bugs me here.... these auto and motorcycle batteries with NO charge/discharge management system look like a really bad day waiting to happen if they are handled like wet lead-acid and AGM batteries.
 
Lead acid battrees have worked well over 100 years. They work fine for me.
 
Battery Tender sells Lithium Iron batteries for ATVs, motorcycles etc (not sure about automobiles), but I have a couple I use in my ATV's and they're great. They weigh a fraction of what the original lead acid batteries weigh, they hold a charge way better and last longer (I find that with limited use my ATV battery would only last 3 or 4 years, but this one I've had for at least that long and it still works great. If they get the batteries figured out for vehicles I think that would be an easy way to save 25 pounds plus and you can mount it sideways upside down etc, but with daily use, vibration etc they may not have the longevity of the classic lead acid we all use.
 
I am sure that any Li battery sold for automotive use in the future will be safe.

Electric cars are using them now, and have been for 10 years. Very few issues.

I had a lead acid battery blow it's top off seconds after starting a commuter van I was refueling. Lucky the hood was down.

Bad thing happen when you store mass amounts of energy in ever smaller packages, not just Li batteries.
 
Lead acid battrees have worked well over 100 years. They work fine for me.

Horses work fine too, but you won’t see me trading my car out for one. Not a valid argument.

Not only that, but people have blown themselves up with regular unsealed lead acid batteries. They do release hydrogen, and if not maintained accordingly they can explode too.

Battery Tender sells Lithium Iron batteries for ATVs, motorcycles etc (not sure about automobiles), but I have a couple I use in my ATV's and they're great. They weigh a fraction of what the original lead acid batteries weigh, they hold a charge way better and last longer (I find that with limited use my ATV battery would only last 3 or 4 years, but this one I've had for at least that long and it still works great. If they get the batteries figured out for vehicles I think that would be an easy way to save 25 pounds plus and you can mount it sideways upside down etc, but with daily use, vibration etc they may not have the longevity of the classic lead acid we all use.

I have a Battery Tender brand lithium ion battery in my motorcycle. It’s the only motorcycle battery I’ve ever owned that’s lasted more than 2 years. And sad to say, it spends a pretty significant amount of time parked.

Battery Tender also makes a charger with a setting specifically for lithium ion batteries. That’s what I use to maintain it. That charger also has a “lead acid” setting, so I can still use it to trickle charge my regular car batteries as well.

Like every other new technology, lithium ion batteries are not exactly the same as the lead acid batteries they replaced, and they must be maintained accordingly.
 
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I've had one serious lead-acid battery fire too.

But I think what is bothering me here is that the mfr/seller of the particular battery in question does not have any info on their site on precautions for these. I suspect that most folks would not know to not jump start them.... which the mfr said was the cause of the battery fire discussed in the linked thread. Honestly, how many of us know that?

I have a couple I use in my ATV's and they're great.
Since these batteries are supposed to be charged in a certain way (constant rate), do you know how your ATV's charging system manages that? Did the ATV's come with the LI battery originally?

If not, how is too high a charge rate avoided, and how does one prevent excessive discharge of the battery, which is also a cause of the batteries to fail? Not challenging you, but this is the type of application info that I don't think is understood, and putting a battery like this in a vehicle with a standard charging system meant for a lead-acid battery looks like a big problem.
 
A LI battery I was charging for my drill caused this, I try not to use ANY LI batteries if there are other types available...

rhino 11358.jpg
 
A LI battery I was charging for my drill caused this, I try not to use ANY LI batteries if there are other types available...

View attachment 1715398257

***edit***

sorry, I wanted to correct this. I mistook that shop vac for a wheeled battery charger on first glance. That’s what I get for skimming through too quickly on my phone and not expanding the picture.
 
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I see a shop vac....???

Maybe HemiSDart will chime in and describe the charger that was being used. I assumed he was using the charger made for his drill's Li batteries....
 
I see a shop vac....???

Maybe HemiSDart will chime in and describe the charger that was being used. I assumed he was using the charger made for his drill's Li batteries....

Yup, you’re right, I thought I saw something else. I corrected it above.
 
I had a Sears 20V drill in the factory charger that I had used for a couple of years. My mistake was I had a 30 year old power strip that it was plugged into with no breaker and that was plugged into a regular non GFCI socket straight into the 20 amp panel breaker, so there was basically no protection circuit. The charger overheated and set a stack of papers and old broadcast sheets on fire that were right next to the charger.
 
I used to buy camera gear from Adorama. I forget if it was my then Canon 40D or 7D bodies, but I needed batteries, and they had a "deal" on aftermarket batteries and charger. Bear in mind I had two aftermarket ones for the 40Ds that worked great.

This "deal" I get turns out you are supposed to use the supplied charger, NOT the Canon one. I was a bit miffed, but plugged one of them in. About an hour later it was so hot I could barely touch it.

I was incensed. enraged. And THAT was the end of my buying from Adorama.
 
Been looking at the Braille Battery website. I am not impressed, maybe its my browser or Im old but I could not find any downloads on their download link.

I get the feeling they expect the battery to be the sole power source during use. I can see how you could add a battery charger and have the alternator / generator power a LI battery charger as two separate systems NOT connected together..

I'm not sold on the Tech just yet for traditional auto batteries.
 
I just bought a Earthx lithium iron phosphate battery. So far it's great. It has a battery management system and is the first liFePo4 battery approved by the FAA. Also just won Indy this year in the Penske car. Also, it only weights 4.9lbs ,is 6.5x6.6x3" and is local.

IMG_20190905_212658005.jpg


15692921782248453564006659557200.jpg


And fits inside a fake battery box I made

15692922602914237877959484838273.jpg


15692924474448449933934107839083.jpg
 
I just bought a Earthx lithium iron phosphate battery. So far it's great. It has a battery management system and is the first liFePo4 battery approved by the FAA. Also just won Indy this year in the Penske car. Also, it only weights 4.9lbs ,is 6.5x6.6x3" and is local.

View attachment 1715398397

View attachment 1715398398

And fits inside a fake battery box I made

View attachment 1715398399

I love how you disguised that.

All of this does tell me one thing. I need to designate one area for all of my cordless tool recharging. Maybe on the concrete floor with nothing above or around it. I never leave any charger plugged in unattended anyway, but still I guess there's a chance. I sure do like how long they last though, I know that. I can charge one and it lasts for literally months.
 
All of this does tell me one thing. I need to designate one area for all of my cordless tool recharging. Maybe on the concrete floor with nothing above or around it.

Maybe best to start charging them in fireproof steel boxes, like we used to use in school for wood shop rags, or arc welding stick butts?? I converted an old steel single tool box for the kids li-on batteries for the Traxxas, so the cord could come outside to plug them in.
 
I try no to leave any charging system alone, ever, but especially on my cordless products.

That said, Having seen what Litium does when exposed to the moisture in the air, I try not to buy lithium batteries at all. I can just imagine a cracked battery in a car accident, when coolant or washer fluid gets on it. That's why lithium batteries are sealed in aluminum foil: To seal them from oxygen and moisture. One wee leak in the foil and...
 
Battery Tender sells Lithium Iron batteries for ATVs, motorcycles etc (not sure about automobiles), but I have a couple I use in my ATV's and they're great. They weigh a fraction of what the original lead acid batteries weigh, they hold a charge way better and last longer (I find that with limited use my ATV battery would only last 3 or 4 years, but this one I've had for at least that long and it still works great. If they get the batteries figured out for vehicles I think that would be an easy way to save 25 pounds plus and you can mount it sideways upside down etc, but with daily use, vibration etc they may not have the longevity of the classic lead acid we all use.

Horses work fine too, but you won’t see me trading my car out for one. Not a valid argument.

Not only that, but people have blown themselves up with regular unsealed lead acid batteries. They do release hydrogen, and if not maintained accordingly they can explode too.



I have a Battery Tender brand lithium ion battery in my motorcycle. It’s the only motorcycle battery I’ve ever owned that’s lasted more than 2 years. And sad to say, it spends a pretty significant amount of time parked.

Battery Tender also makes a charger with a setting specifically for lithium ion batteries. That’s what I use to maintain it. That charger also has a “lead acid” setting, so I can still use it to trickle charge my regular car batteries as well.

Like every other new technology, lithium ion batteries are not exactly the same as the lead acid batteries they replaced, and they must be maintained accordingly.

I love how you disguised that.

All of this does tell me one thing. I need to designate one area for all of my cordless tool recharging. Maybe on the concrete floor with nothing above or around it. I never leave any charger plugged in unattended anyway, but still I guess there's a chance. I sure do like how long they last though, I know that. I can charge one and it lasts for literally months.

A metal 5 gallon bucket out in the open will do it for fire protection from charging LI batteries.
I quoted a few posts because what I wanted to say applies to all.
Yes, lead acid batteries can explode, and I have experienced that personally.

Just think about some of the cell phones that have burst into flames for no apparent reason, and upsize that to a car battery.
A lead acid battery can explode from the produced Hydrogen and usually blow acid everywhere.
But, they don't cause a huge continuing and building heat source when they do it.
An LI battery literally burns down because of the materials used in their construction, so consider an LI that starts on fire and you can't put it out, and the flames just get bigger and bigger until all the internal "plastic" separator has burned up.
THEN you also have the Lithium smoke and fumes as well.

One of the things that make an LI so dangerous, is not only can they burst into flames from charging or jumping issue's but the design of the internals combined with the materials used makes them short inside if the plastic layer separating the Lithium layers gets disturbed.
An impact or puncture to these layers can easily set off an LI battery.

 
Main issue with the lithium iron batts is that most modern battery chargers(not tenders) are “smart”. They will kick into desulfation mode if they sense the battery requires it. This will destroy the battery, swelling it up and possibly causing it to explode. I did this with a Schumacher charger that would supposedly lock out to trickle, but kicked over to desulfation after I was about 5min into loading a new tune into my Speed Triple. Not a good time
 
https://earthxbatteries.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Kitplanes.Article_1217.pdf Here’s a very good in-depth article on EarthX and the type of Lithium battery they manufacture. They discuss the misinformation and confusion with all things “Lithium”. I’ve used this type on sport bikes in the past, looks like a reduction of 35-40 lbs replacing a typical battery in an automotive application. For use in drag racing it’s a no-brainer.
 
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