Long valves on W2's with .600 lift?

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10 years ago mike jones wrote

There are no real good cast flat tappet cores for the 360 chrysler, so I'd go with the hydraulic roller.
As long as you're planning to stay below 6,500, you'll be happy with the HR cam.

Mike Jones

Still true?

Duane
You get better lube to your balls and cups
I've never lubed shaft rockers just from pushrods- ask around
just magnums
I'v also used Ford size 3/8 balls and cups on enduro round d round motors
anyone know what the trucks used?
 
Okay...here's the cam suggestion for my dirt motor from Mike Jones... Just remember the 294 CFM intake flow and a 7200 rpm limit.

I have to admit I'm not seeing enough lift here BUT Mike's cams are hard to beat. His stuff kicks *** and I'm so impressed that I am having a hard time deciding on what to run.

Waiting for Howards reply... may never come!

Here's what I recommend.
Cam# Chr360, M74375-77370-106
250/255 @.050"
.375"/.370" Lobe Lift
106 LSA
Price: $263.32

Lifter# J904MH
.904" Mech F.T. lifter w/.024" oiling hole in lifter face
Price: $168.36

If you want to run a beehive, I recommend the PAC 1235
PAC-1235 Hemi 5.7L, 6.1L 0.600 Lift Drop-In Ovate Wire Beehive - 1200 Series Beehive - Valve Springs - Products | PAC Racing Springs

My reasoning for trying a beehive spring...

 
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Also, Alan Lockheed, creator of the Engine Expert engine simulation program, reported one client changing to a much lower ratio exhaust rocker in his Mopar Modified at the track at Alan's suggestion and experiencing such a gain that he had to change gearing to get off the rev-limiter.

Food for thought...
eusa_think.gif
Mad bill 2018

any recommendation on rocker ratios- but you have expensive ones already
Mike should have a handle on the timing around BDC as he considers stroke and rod length as well as your flow
 
Wyrmrider said:
Also, Alan Lockheed, creator of the Engine Expert engine simulation program, reported one client changing to a much lower ratio exhaust rocker in his Mopar Modified at the track at Alan's suggestion and experiencing such a gain that he had to change gearing to get off the rev-limiter.

Food for thought... View attachment 1715460335 Mad bill 2018

any recommendation on rocker ratios- but you have expensive ones already
Mike should have a handle on the timing around BDC as he considers stroke and rod length as well as your flow
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I'd like to get some 1.6's but the wallet is too thin right now.

I'm hoping to get a call anyday that my slugs are ready at RaceTech...
 
Right now mike has not said if 1.6 would help on the intake or both or not
I always recommend run what you have and get a baseline
try advancing the cam, retarding the cam and find out what your ride likes at the track
Need a sponsor for the springs or lifters or cam?
 
Wyrmrider said:
Right now mike has not said if 1.6 would help on the intake or both or not
I always recommend run what you have and get a baseline
try advancing the cam, retarding the cam and find out what your ride likes at the track
Need a sponsor for the springs or lifters or cam?
Click to expand...
I'd take a sponsor for a hamburger,
 
Krooser said:
Okay...here's the cam suggestion for my dirt motor from Mike Jones... Just remember the 294 CFM intake flow and a 7200 rpm limit.

I have to admit I'm not seeing enough lift here BUT Mike's cams are hard to beat. His stuff kicks *** and I'm so impressed that I am having a hard time deciding on what to run.

Waiting for Howards reply... may never come!

Here's what I recommend.
Cam# Chr360, M74375-77370-106
250/255 @.050"
.375"/.370" Lobe Lift
106 LSA
Price: $263.32

Lifter# J904MH
.904" Mech F.T. lifter w/.024" oiling hole in lifter face
Price: $168.36

If you want to run a beehive, I recommend the PAC 1235
PAC-1235 Hemi 5.7L, 6.1L 0.600 Lift Drop-In Ovate Wire Beehive - 1200 Series Beehive - Valve Springs - Products | PAC Racing Springs

My reasoning for trying a beehive spring...

Click to expand...

Ok so I am curious how you intend to run your oiling system on this motor. Obviously with a lifter with a .024 hole and pushrod oiling, you are not cutting oil to the tappets. Can you elaborate on your total oiling plan for this motor. I know this is a valve train thread, but they are interrelated.
 
Duane said:
Ok so I am curious how you intend to run your oiling system on this motor. Obviously with a lifter with a .024 hole and pushrod oiling, you are not cutting oil to the tappets. Can you elaborate on your total oiling plan for this motor. I know this is a valve train thread, but they are interrelated.
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I'm not going to oil thru the pushrods.... Shaft oiling only and I'll tube the block, drill the oil galleries as needed, etc.

I'm using Crower/Comp style lifters without the oil band. Hi volume pump. The crank looks like the oil hole has been relocated to improve the oil timing.
 
Duane said:
Ok so I am curious how you intend to run your oiling system on this motor. Obviously with a lifter with a .024 hole and pushrod oiling, you are not cutting oil to the tappets. Can you elaborate on your total oiling plan for this motor. I know this is a valve train thread, but they are interrelated.
Click to expand...

Dont know about Krooser but I am going to run oil thru pushrods to ensure adequate tip oiling . I will still be oiling the shafts/rockers via the block . Ryan drilled oil feeds my W2 race heads .
 
So I got my reply from Howard's on their suggested cam... only issue is they spec'd a solid roller not a FT. Told them to sharpen their pencil and try again.


Year:
 1964 - 2003
Make:
 Chrysler

Engine:
 273, 340, 360

Camshaft Type:
 Mechanical Roller
Basic RPM Range:
 4000 to 7800
Valve Lift Intake:
 .640
Valve Lift Exhaust:
 .645
Duration Intake:
 295
Duration Exhaust:
 305
Duration at 050 Intake:
 263
Duration at 050 Exhaust:
 273
Lobe Separation:
 108
Intake Centerline:
 104
Firing Order:
 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2

I think I found a suitable set of springs. PSI 1115L which will take a .650 lift...have a 1.9XX installed height and will also work on a Gen III Hemi if they don't work well on this LA. I may order two sample springs to see how they fit and to settle on spring locators, too.

It seems most of the beehive's I've seen use a 7 degree retainer. These heads had 10 degree Ti retainers but a 7 will work fine, too. I know one engine builder who dislikes the 10's and uses them in almost every engine he builds.

Here's a useless fact... you have heard of Super 7 retainers? Well that's just an 8 degree deal and so are the Mopar factory locks and retainers...
 
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mbaird said:
Dont know about Krooser but I am going to run oil thru pushrods to ensure adequate tip oiling . I will still be oiling the shafts/rockers via the block . Ryan drilled oil feeds my W2 race heads .
Click to expand...
mbaird said:
Dont know about Krooser but I am going to run oil thru pushrods to ensure adequate tip oiling . I will still be oiling the shafts/rockers via the block . Ryan drilled oil feeds my W2 race heads .
Click to expand...

The rockers I'm using have an oil squirt hole aimed at the spring IIRC. I could also use spring oilers if needed.

I kinda view pushrod oiling as another oil leak and I'm just cautious about not being able to get enough lube to the crank and rods. One catistrophic explosion is enough on this deal.
 
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I am running pressurized solid roller lifters so there will be a leak at one end or the other each time the cam is on its base (lash). Might as well have it leaking in the rocker cup .....
 
mbaird said:
Dont know about Krooser but I am going to run oil thru pushrods to ensure adequate tip oiling . I will still be oiling the shafts/rockers via the block . Ryan drilled oil feeds my W2 race heads .
Click to expand...



To get the oiling correct on Chrysler rockers with Chrysler oil timing, you MUST apply machinists bluing and then assemble every rocker on the shaft with soft springs holding the valves on the seat. And the adjusters need to be removed.

With that done, you need to look through the hole in the rocker arm that feeds oil to the adjuster and cup and you MUST see the hole in the shaft through the hole in the rocker complexly. The hole in the rocker must be 100% open to the hole in the shaft.

If it lines up, you don't need pushrod oiling and all you are doing is increasing the the needed lil flow the pump has to put out.

If the holes don't line up, or you can't see them, you need to stick a small scribe into the hole in the rocker (while making sure the valve is on the seat and the rocker is at zero lash) and scribe onto the shaft where the oil hole needs to be.

You can not groove the shaft or anything else. You must have full pressure oil flow out that hole while the valve is on the seat and you can run the RPM's as high as your testicles and/or wallet can handle.

If you do that, push Rod oiling becomes an redundant unnecessity. And push Rod oiling is no better if the oil timing to the adjusters is correct.
 
mbaird said:
That Howards grind is closer to what I would have expected for your heads .
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I agree. I said what I said on speed talk and Jones ran his mouth and pissed me off.

I can tell you my DECADES of testing do not match his, and I'd bet everything I have I spent more time screwing with heads that break over than even he has.

I can made any head ANY head go turbulent. I'm also positive that 28 inches isn't the full picture of port testing.

I'm running more lift on a STREET grind than Krooser is going to run on a RACE engine. And I don't have W2 heads on this engine, AND I still have my original W2 heads that broke over at about .620 lift. Those heads made more power and went quicker going from the Harold Brookeshire max lift of .640 to a Cam Motion grind with .080 more lift and 10 degrees less timing on the intake and 12 less on the exhaust.

BTDT. Brookshire and I had several heated conversations over his absolute ignorance about lift, port turbulence and horsepower, specifically related to Chrysler engines.

That's why I stopped using his cams. Not near enough lift and too much duration to try and cover up the lack of lift.

Ironically, if you look at his VooDoo lobes. They now have much more lift than much of his earlier stuff.

Maybe the light came on.
 
Understand that “What I would have expected” has no bearing on what is best.
Just my uneducated notions ...
Circle track may have a whole different set of parameters and challenges.
 
Something most people don’t connect the dots with very well is the fact that “most” cam lobe designers........ are not engine builders or head porters.
They understand the math to develop a cam lobe, but don’t necessarily understand what specifc lobe characteristics that certain engine families respond positively too.

Knowing how to design a cam lobe doesn’t automatically qualify you as an expert in knowing how to make power.

If everything could be pre-tested to perfection with 100% accuracy in simulation, there would be no need to physically test anything.
We’re not there yet.
 
PRH said:
Something most people don’t connect the dots with very well is the fact that “most” cam lobe designers........ are not engine builders or head porters.
They understand the math to develop a cam lobe, but don’t necessarily understand what specifc lobe characteristics that certain engine families respond positively too.

Knowing how to design a cam lobe doesn’t automatically qualify you as an expert in knowing how to make power.

If everything could be pre-tested to perfection with 100% accuracy in simulation, there would be no need to physically test anything.
We’re not there yet.
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Yeah, I know. I respect Mike and all he knows and what he's done. No one can question his knowledge or the things he's done.

But to call me stupid and that I wasn't helping was uncalled for. I probably won't renew my membership over there when it goes away, which is coming up pretty quick.

I also noticed Jay (warp speed) hasn't been around. Evidently he doesn't know oil timing.

After that dog and pony show I called a well know engine builder who I had a face to face discussion and at least 2 phone calls with between 1998 and 2003 about oil timing issues.

So I called him and he laughed that someone didn't know oil timing exists. It is as I've said, a settled science.

Now, if Jay wanted to discuss what they are doing now in ASSCAR as far as Rod oiling I'd love to hear it, as I understand they are doing things a bit differently than what the junk most of us work on. But, as usual, he couldn't even hint at what they are doing.

It gets old. Fast.
 
I wasn’t really referring to MJ in my post.

It was more a response to your comment about Harold.
I was a big UD proponent.
I had excellent results with a lot of their cams.
But fairly early on......after a few talks with Harold and some recommendations by him...... it was clear he and I weren’t on the same page with what I needed for some certain builds I was doing.
Basically, I was having better results going with what I thought would work, over his recommendations.
These were oval track builds where there were multiple customers involved, so there was an opportunity to try several different cams.

I still liked the cams, I just stopped asking for recommendations.
 
mbaird
just a pun on the mopar dumbell lifter

YR excellent write up on adjuster oiling
burn up lots of balls till we got that figured out
much easier than squirter bars
but they may still be useful for springs

long pushrods are still a problem
again YR shows the way
and the cup adjusters
anyone else run 3/8 cups/balls
circle track with a no break-mabey run all season parts budget= no drag race lobes
 
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