Long valves on W2's with .600 lift?

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Duane said:
I have seen a super 7 and the ones I saw had a much larger surface area in the retainer, even though the angle is only 7-8 degrees, I could see how they would be much stronger. Do they make a super 7 for a beehive spring?
Click to expand...
Not sure...most I've seen were 7 degree
 
A recap and open items


flows

"When discussing flow and lift a few years ago with Mike Jones @ Jones Cams he suggested a cam with a .565 lift as I recall. This morning Mike S., who flowed my head, told me to stay at .600 or less. Said .565-.570 is what he'd recommend. After so many years of just using a cam based on experience and a recommendation or two I can see where I used a bunch of them that were way too big for the heads I ran."

Yellow rose commented on the flows

Making the ports square is a nasty job. BTDT. The results are certainly worth the effort if you need the cross section area. (I like to keep the velocity up for off the corners)

I'd disagree with the lift that low. I'm not nearly as concerned with the flow stall or even break over. I'm betting if you put the intake manifold on and flow it, the flow will be lower, but much less turbulent.

Also, the argument can be made that flowing the port at higher valve lifts at 28 inches (or higher) may not be as telling as one may think. I'm all for running the test pressure as high as you can, and doing what you can to increase flow at those pressures, or atleast reduce the turbulence/noise, but...I'm not so sure that the port sees that pressure drop at higher valve lifts.

Maybe the port only sees 22 inches above .400 lift (pulling numbers out of my hat here but you get the point) and at that pressure drop, maybe the port isn't nearLy as bad as it looks at 28 inches. We do know that at overlap and the low lift at that point that you can get a pressure drop of near 100 inches or maybe even more. One reason why I think a 50 degree seat (or even steeper) may look bad at 28 inches, but when you crank the test pressure up it looks much better than flatter seat angles.

One last thing...when you flow average verses lift, you'll see that higher net lifts gain you more time at higher flow rates.

This was a HUGE issue I had with Brookshire. He was dead set on .640 gross lift on my W2 stuff. I made more power when I changed cams and on that stuff I ended up at just under .700 lift net. With the same heads. So I wouldn't base my lift requirements just on flow at 28 inches alone.

end yr comments


mbaird posted I would go .650+ so that the valves spend more time at .600 which is where your power is made."
Circle track may have a whole different set of parameters and challenges."

IMHO this might conflict with the reliable necessity- YOUR CALL




Krooser needs a reliable build,

he does not plan or a max rev/ max power build "I want to run about 7200 rpm " 7200 rpm because I can't afford to spin it faster.

his pistons are just arriving so he can still screw with CR --Randy@RaceTec

years ago Mike Jones said there were "no good cores for SBM flat tappet" Still true?

are there any now?

Do we need to consider nitriding

or new tool steel cores?

Krooser mentions looking at the solid body (no dumbell) Crower/ comp style lifter with a .024 oil hole- any better choices Do we need DLC coating?


Krooser's W2 econo heads have the rocker stands milled off. T&D rockers 1.5 rockers IDK if rockers bushed

They sell rocker stand spacers that allow fine tuning the rocker stands to get the rocker tip sweep correct. he will set mid lift correctly


Wyrmrider said since you have to make stands figure out what the best spring to use - usually taller like 2" or Big- block size ( or BBC size) some height where you have choices a

Krooser posted "The other issue with a .650 lift is finding the correct springs that I want to use.
My Crowers that were on this will go to .650 I believe but I want to go to a beehive or conical spring... lighter rate and better spring control at speed.
I still have to work out exactly what I want. "
He is looking at Beehive springs he can get valves for any spring length recommended- what would be the most reliable and provide best valve control?"

Earlier Thinking of PAC 1218X's.

"I'm pretty sure I'm going with PAC 1220 beehive springs... 1.440 diameter at the base". ??? what best with proposed cam?

"Trying to get an installed height of 1.9. These heads have 1.50 diameter springs right now."
Wyrm writes
what about pac 1220 set up at 2.00 I get 135 seat 360@600 1.445 OD – Lunati box is $10.00

think I found a suitable set of springs. PSI 1115L which will take a .650 lift...have a 1.9XX installed height ??? IDK

Here's what Mike Jones recommend.
Cam# Chr360, M74375-77370-106
250/255 @.050"
.375"/.370" Lobe Lift
106 LSA
Price: $263.32

Lifter# J904MH
.904" Mech F.T. lifter w/.024" oiling hole in lifter face
Price: $168.36

If you want to run a beehive, I recommend the PAC 1235
PAC-1235 Hemi 5.7L, 6.1L 0.600 Lift Drop-In Ovate Wire Beehive - 1200 Series Beehive - Valve Springs - Products | PAC Racing Springs

yr also observes that the springs dance around so what for spring seats?


Krooser had 2.02/1.60 Manley Race Flow but ditching the Manley Race Flow valves to heavy (for sale?)
he has a 5.140 the other a 5.165. to mock up

"The 8mm stem Magnum valve is 120 grams. The 11/32 stem is 125 grams while the 3/8 stem is 140.

I thought the 8mm would be much lighter...I'd use those but the retainers and locks are more expensive than the others by a bunch...

at least in the tool steel or forged steel lines.

Valve Keepers? Bead or Square? Super 7? 3/8 retainers and jumbo keepers?

Bead offers approximately 30-percent more valve-stem life over other designs.

Competition Products?


yr said BTW, I had to use 3/8-7/16 double taper thick wall Smith Brothers pushrods to get it done. I also had some very nice pushrods made by Walt and Pat Austin. Those were double taper as well.

YR and I are suggesting double taper 7/16 pushrods I'd use ford balls and cups- TBD would you suggest lubing the cups ann balls throught the pushrods?

"I'll likely use the biggest pushrods I can fit "

Manifold
4-6" of the runners matched to the heads but no work has been done to the plenum... Mopar M-1.
 
Wyrmrider said:
A recap and open items


flows

"When discussing flow and lift a few years ago with Mike Jones @ Jones Cams he suggested a cam with a .565 lift as I recall. This morning Mike S., who flowed my head, told me to stay at .600 or less. Said .565-.570 is what he'd recommend. After so many years of just using a cam based on experience and a recommendation or two I can see where I used a bunch of them that were way too big for the heads I ran."

Yellow rose commented on the flows

Making the ports square is a nasty job. BTDT. The results are certainly worth the effort if you need the cross section area. (I like to keep the velocity up for off the corners)

I'd disagree with the lift that low. I'm not nearly as concerned with the flow stall or even break over. I'm betting if you put the intake manifold on and flow it, the flow will be lower, but much less turbulent.

Also, the argument can be made that flowing the port at higher valve lifts at 28 inches (or higher) may not be as telling as one may think. I'm all for running the test pressure as high as you can, and doing what you can to increase flow at those pressures, or atleast reduce the turbulence/noise, but...I'm not so sure that the port sees that pressure drop at higher valve lifts.

Maybe the port only sees 22 inches above .400 lift (pulling numbers out of my hat here but you get the point) and at that pressure drop, maybe the port isn't nearLy as bad as it looks at 28 inches. We do know that at overlap and the low lift at that point that you can get a pressure drop of near 100 inches or maybe even more. One reason why I think a 50 degree seat (or even steeper) may look bad at 28 inches, but when you crank the test pressure up it looks much better than flatter seat angles.

One last thing...when you flow average verses lift, you'll see that higher net lifts gain you more time at higher flow rates.

This was a HUGE issue I had with Brookshire. He was dead set on .640 gross lift on my W2 stuff. I made more power when I changed cams and on that stuff I ended up at just under .700 lift net. With the same heads. So I wouldn't base my lift requirements just on flow at 28 inches alone.

end yr comments


mbaird posted I would go .650+ so that the valves spend more time at .600 which is where your power is made."
Circle track may have a whole different set of parameters and challenges."

IMHO this might conflict with the reliable necessity- YOUR CALL




Krooser needs a reliable build,

he does not plan or a max rev/ max power build "I want to run about 7200 rpm " 7200 rpm because I can't afford to spin it faster.

his pistons are just arriving so he can still screw with CR --Randy@RaceTec

years ago Mike Jones said there were "no good cores for SBM flat tappet" Still true?

are there any now?

Do we need to consider nitriding

or new tool steel cores?

Krooser mentions looking at the solid body (no dumbell) Crower/ comp style lifter with a .024 oil hole- any better choices Do we need DLC coating?


Krooser's W2 econo heads have the rocker stands milled off. T&D rockers 1.5 rockers IDK if rockers bushed

They sell rocker stand spacers that allow fine tuning the rocker stands to get the rocker tip sweep correct. he will set mid lift correctly


Wyrmrider said since you have to make stands figure out what the best spring to use - usually taller like 2" or Big- block size ( or BBC size) some height where you have choices a

Krooser posted "The other issue with a .650 lift is finding the correct springs that I want to use.
My Crowers that were on this will go to .650 I believe but I want to go to a beehive or conical spring... lighter rate and better spring control at speed.
I still have to work out exactly what I want. "
He is looking at Beehive springs he can get valves for any spring length recommended- what would be the most reliable and provide best valve control?"

Earlier Thinking of PAC 1218X's.

"I'm pretty sure I'm going with PAC 1220 beehive springs... 1.440 diameter at the base". ??? what best with proposed cam?

"Trying to get an installed height of 1.9. These heads have 1.50 diameter springs right now."
Wyrm writes
what about pac 1220 set up at 2.00 I get 135 seat 360@600 1.445 OD – Lunati box is $10.00

think I found a suitable set of springs. PSI 1115L which will take a .650 lift...have a 1.9XX installed height ??? IDK

Here's what Mike Jones recommend.
Cam# Chr360, M74375-77370-106
250/255 @.050"
.375"/.370" Lobe Lift
106 LSA
Price: $263.32

Lifter# J904MH
.904" Mech F.T. lifter w/.024" oiling hole in lifter face
Price: $168.36

If you want to run a beehive, I recommend the PAC 1235
PAC-1235 Hemi 5.7L, 6.1L 0.600 Lift Drop-In Ovate Wire Beehive - 1200 Series Beehive - Valve Springs - Products | PAC Racing Springs

yr also observes that the springs dance around so what for spring seats?


Krooser had 2.02/1.60 Manley Race Flow but ditching the Manley Race Flow valves to heavy (for sale?)
he has a 5.140 the other a 5.165. to mock up

"The 8mm stem Magnum valve is 120 grams. The 11/32 stem is 125 grams while the 3/8 stem is 140.

I thought the 8mm would be much lighter...I'd use those but the retainers and locks are more expensive than the others by a bunch...

at least in the tool steel or forged steel lines.

Valve Keepers? Bead or Square? Super 7? 3/8 retainers and jumbo keepers?

Bead offers approximately 30-percent more valve-stem life over other designs.

Competition Products?


yr said BTW, I had to use 3/8-7/16 double taper thick wall Smith Brothers pushrods to get it done. I also had some very nice pushrods made by Walt and Pat Austin. Those were double taper as well.

YR and I are suggesting double taper 7/16 pushrods I'd use ford balls and cups- TBD would you suggest lubing the cups ann balls throught the pushrods?

"I'll likely use the biggest pushrods I can fit "

Manifold
4-6" of the runners matched to the heads but no work has been done to the plenum... Mopar M-1.
Click to expand...




I'm saying use the biggest, thickest pushrods you can fit in there.
 
Going thru the Crower catalog I guess their Mopar lifter does not have a full solid body like the Comp lifters. I believe they are made by one of the lifter outfits in Michigan.

I did a cam recommend request to Crower. This engine had a Crower roller in it's first go around (AFAIK)... there's one I looked at a couple years that isn't listed in their catalog anymore... I'll see what they say.

Who's the FABO guy who's a member here and works for Crower?
 
from fbbo

"I just had Mike Jones spec me a cam and lifter package for my 422. I asked for a SFT and when I mentioned that my block was tubed he said he would not recommend using a SFT because splash oiling was not reliable enough"
so edm? heat treat?
 
Wyrmrider said:
from fbbo

"I just had Mike Jones spec me a cam and lifter package for my 422. I asked for a SFT and when I mentioned that my block was tubed he said he would not recommend using a SFT because splash oiling was not reliable enough"
so edm? heat treat?
Click to expand...
Heat treating and a EDM lifter are good but a lifter is still requiring oil and probably a good bit more than what a EDM will deliver. The extra heat generated with the lack of oil could pose a problem to heat treated parts.

And that’s why the builder said what he said.
I don’t care who has done what to what ever rpm, this is the line of thinking I have come across.

The way I see it, if your driving the car a lot, oil is your friend.
 
Just looking thru some cam lobe lists... what do ya think of THIS one? Plenty of lift...might be bit much on the .050 duration.


  • Advance:
    • 4
  • Application:
    • 1964-1992 "A" CHRYSLER 273,340,360
      ,
    • 1967-1991 "A" CHRYSLER 318
  • Brand:
    • Erson Cams
  • Cam Type:
    • MECHANICAL FLAT TAPPET
  • CID:
    • 340
      ,
    • 273
      ,
    • 318
      ,
    • 360
  • Duration @ .050:
    • 260/268
  • Duration Advertised:
    • 286/294
  • Grind Number:
    • R-286-5A
  • Gross Lift:
    • .675/.645
  • Lobe Center:
    • 106
  • Make:
    • CHRYSLER
  • Part Name:
    • Engine Camshaft
  • RPM Range:
    • 4500-7600
  • Valve Lash:
    • .026/.028
 
Wyrmrider said:
from fbbo

"I just had Mike Jones spec me a cam and lifter package for my 422. I asked for a SFT and when I mentioned that my block was tubed he said he would not recommend using a SFT because splash oiling was not reliable enough"
so edm? heat treat?
Click to expand...
That was me.
I think I’m leaning toward modifying the tube by drilling a .040” hole in each lifter bore to provide a little oil to the lifter. I will also drill a .060” hole in the set screw that is under the #1 main bearing to feed a little oil to the other galley.
I think someone made a lifter bore jig for drilling holes in the tube but I forget what company. Have to do some digging.
 
MoPar Performance used to sell that item, if it is the right one I’m thinking of. It was basically a lifter with a tube sticking out one side to insert the drill bit in so you can drill the peened tube for oiling. I’ve loosely been looking for one.
 
SSG_Karg said:
That was me.
I think I’m leaning toward modifying the tube by drilling a .040” hole in each lifter bore to provide a little oil to the lifter. I will also drill a .060” hole in the set screw that is under the #1 main bearing to feed a little oil to the other galley.
I think someone made a lifter bore jig for drilling holes in the tube but I forget what company. Have to do some digging.
Click to expand...


Done that before except a .060 hole in the rest rotor in the number 1 main be a bit small. I used at the minimum of a .125 hole in that and probably a .187 hole wouldn't be bad.

I'm talking about feeding hydraulic lifters with the tube and restricter. If you are just wanting a bit more lube on solid lifters, than a .060 hole is plenty.
 
Wyrmrider said:
Krooser
did you see this?
Moparchat - Home of MOPAR enthusiasts worldwide! - SB Oval Track Cooling
what are the rules at the tracks you run?
Looks like you need a sponsor for your cam
Click to expand...
Jim...I've seen that thread. Going to try the. water pump mod.

Of course I can use a cam sponsor....you volunteering?

Rules are pretty wide open...single 4bbl. 410 ci. There are four of five different engine combos that are ok. They adjust the weight to try to even things out. My engine qualifies for the IMCA modified rule. 150# weight break.

Talked to RaceTec about my pistons. They are duplicating the dome... Randy commented that the Ross sample I sent was heavy enough for a top fuel Hemi!!!
 
sure let's talk to jones and find out lead time
I found that same spring you did
stll concerned about lifter life
 
I'll call Mike . Monday....still think a bit more lift is in order with his suggested duration and timing.
 
are you trying to run all season like a sealed crate motor
ask Mike if we have to heat treat the core and or coat the lifters to make it live?

Here's a quote from Mike- it's about roller but same choice for ft

" Compared to a normal "Flat Flanked" cam,
my I.R. profiles make more power, and are more reliable,

or we can make one to make even more power, and be just as reliable,

or we can make one to make a bunch more power, and be less reliable.

For the street, I'd go with option 1, but it's really up to the customer."

I'm thinking a profile that's easy to drive, not coming up on the cam unexpectedly
does your car hook up good coming off the corner and need more torque there? what rpm
 
Jim this is a dirt late model. Our rules are pretty wide open. Weight rules are in place for different engine combos but the fast six or eight guys are running unlimited 410" all aluminum engines with a restrictor plate. Doesn't seem to slow them down.

The next bunch have 362" all aluminum SBC's with a Brodix spec head.

Occasionally someone runs a 604 crate and runs at the back. About 650 hp.

My engine is classified as an IMCA modified engine. No cube or carb restrictions but alloy heads are ok but no roller cams. These are often in the mid 600's or a bit higher depending on heads. No one else runs these but it's what I have.

My weekly track is a big half mile paper clip...fast straights tight corners. Straightaway speeds are around 130....corners around 60-70 I'm guessing.

 
Last edited:
well you have the best iron heads
old guys chant stealth and guile beat wild and crazy
do they overpower the track off the corner
let's hope they buy their cams from the bottom of the page
 
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