Of course that is considering the piston is made correctly.
Another quote from the "It's a wonder they run at all" book. lol
Of course that is considering the piston is made correctly.
Yes that is a good one!I just had a BBC completely machined. .030 over on the bore, magged for cracks, trued up the decks (from the main line not the pan rail) and took .010 off on one side and .012 off on the other, hot tanked, finished honed with torque plates to my specs with pistons in hand, installed durabond cam bearings. Total price $700. This is in Southern California so demographic and demand will certainly change things. Just wanted to give you a reference. Work was done in 3 weeks and they called me 4 times in those 3 weeks to discuss different things. I had a quote with written “wants” on carbon copy and they did exactly what I asked them to do, I did not tell them HOW to do it. I have a very good friend who is a machinist for a couple of large sprint car teams and was up front with them that he and I would be checking their work. They welcomed the idea. That in my opinion is a good machine shop.
Your motor do it your way, but for me things are perfect when things are done the way that I ask them to be done.
And I always tell the machine shop how I want the work to be done. And when I say I tell the MS how I want the work to be done, what I actually do is, ask plenty of questions, dig into the answers so we actually have a discussion of what will be done and how it will be done. If it is a shop I have not worked with I will want to review the equipment and gauging. I always get a written estimate that describes what is to be done and the price and the timeframe.
To the OP, you discussed with them, not once, not twice but three times that you wanted the pistons size matched, that you wanted the final hone done with a torque plate and you never agreed to the re sizing of the mains.
I would be having a face to face with the MS owner and what I would be expecting is for the MS to replace the block. I would definitely take the work on that replacement block else where.
It’s not a question of ‘will the motor run?’ It certainly will. The question is, why do folks do as they want and then expect top dollar payment, especially considering the fact that the OP gave the MS at least three opportunities to explain why a torque plate is not needed and final bore hone does not need to be sized matched to the pistons.
Concerning pistons, cast, hypers, forged will all have different clearance requirements. I know one can assume that the piston mfg made the pistons to a nominal size, but I would rather not be guessing on something as critical as piston clearances.Did you actually read what I posted? I didn’t excuse the shop for not using the plate. I explained that the OP isnt a machinist and he has no business tell the shop how to fit a piston. And he doesn’t. If he knew what was what, he’d have known pistons today aren’t like what we had years ago. You can finish a bore to nominal size and it will be right unless the pistons are poorly made. Then you send the pistons back.
I’d be pissed they didn’t use the plate. But there is no unscrewing that now, because putting the plate on and honing it again will certainly make the bores too big. That’s why I said just run it unless he wants to send the pistons out to be coated to make up the clearance. Or start with a new block.
You have to be pragmatic about the situation. It is what it is.
Possibly they
Concerning pistons, cast, hypers, forged will all have different clearance requirements. I know one can assume that the piston mfg made the pistons to a nominal size, but I would rather not be guessing on something as critical as piston clearances.
Wonder what kind of finish the MS put on the cylinder bores. It is different depending upon moly vs chrome rings.
The same thing goes for the head deck finish. A multilayered gasket wants a different finish than a composite gasket does.
If the customer does not specify what he wants a good machine shop would ask.
You don’t have to assume or guess the piston clearance. You can measure the bore and the piston. Or have the shop measure them if you don't have the tools . It would be nice to have the piston before hand but you still have options. If a piston is out of spec either before or after the block is machined you can send the pistons back. I think you will find todays pistons are pretty consistent but if they're not send them back. When he gets his pistons he can have whoever measure both pistons and bore and if both were both done correctly he is good to go. I wouldn't assemble without measuring. If you did then you are assuming or guessing.Possibly they
Concerning pistons, cast, hypers, forged will all have different clearance requirements. I know one can assume that the piston mfg made the pistons to a nominal size, but I would rather not be guessing on something as critical as piston clearances.
Wonder what kind of finish the MS put on the cylinder bores. It is different depending upon moly vs chrome rings.
The same thing goes for the head deck finish. A multilayered gasket wants a different finish than a composite gasket does.
If the customer does not specify what he wants a good machine shop would ask.
Do you have pistons yet?Hello all!
Long time no see here, still have my ol 72 Dart though. I would like to get a temp check on my engine situation as it stands right now. Just had some machine work completed on my 76 440 short block. It's taken over a year, but I told the guy I wasn't in a hurry, so no worries there. They call and tell me it's ready to pickup. This confused me a bit, because when the engine was dropped off, the plan was to get pistons in hand for the final hone. I brought this up, and the shop owner says that modern high end pistons like I would use have clearance "built in", and if I order .30 over pistons, they would fit fine. He said when I got the pistons he would check clearance to be sure. -I thought- clearance was determined by piston material and intended usage, but I don't have a machine shop. I ask how much I owe, and he tells me $1200. That cost is for: Hot tank trips/sonic check/magnaflux, square decks, bore and hone cylinders, cam bearings, freeze plugs, galley plugs/bushings. No line hone, etc. And turning the crank, which I did not want done, as this was going to be a stroker build. (This was discussed when the motor was dropped off also.)
Also, he didn't have a torque plate, so there's that. I was planning on getting one to him when I brought the pistons in, but as stated, I never got that call.
So my questions are:
Boring AND finishing cylinders without pistons, is it acceptable in this instance?
Is it too late to get a torque plate for this block? I know I'll need measurements first, but .
Is $1200 for this work an average going rate for this in the rural southeast area? I don't mind paying good money for good work, but I don't like feeling like I am not getting what I asked for, or what was discussed up front. This is a performance engine shop, and he has a good reputation in the area, but he is a Chevy guy. I've known him a long time, and there aren't any other viable options within 2 hours any direction. I'm not bashing, just haven't had a block done in a long time so I'm asking those with more expertise. The block (and nicely turned cast crank, lol) are still at the shop now.
Thanks ahead for any info/reflections/help/"your stupid" comments.
I agree with what your saying but most piston manufacturers have moved towards making the bore size standard and the piston size to suit the material it is made of. Still I would prefer to have the pistons in hand before machining but that's not always possible. Some pistons have a coating on the skirts that doesn't allow you to measure them. The manufacturer just tells you the finish bore size.One thing to think about is piston alloy as well. There's no way to finish hone a clearance without knowing what you're going to run, some need tighter clearance, some loser, the application matters, a boat with cast piston will need much more clearance, a drag car clearance will be different from which forged alloys used, hypereutectic wants tight a few tenths to half a thousandths. I'm still learning but I've learned this doing it over the last couple weeks.
Yep, true.I agree with what your saying but most piston manufacturers have moved towards making the bore size standard and the piston size to suit the material it is made of. Still I would prefer to have the pistons in hand before machining but that's not always possible. Some pistons have a coating on the skirts that doesn't allow you to measure them. The manufacturer just tells you the finish bore size.
A WELL balanced and prepped cast crank will stand 550 plus hp. So there's THAT. Chrysler, like Ford used nodular iron in their casting process, which is MUCH stronger than regular grey cast iron. It's good the shop is going to make it right. I do hope it ends up right. Good luck!Hey all; thank you for all the help/info. Oldmanmopar, I appreciate that last post. I've been reading and studying the stroker situation, and I've almost scared myself away from that. Its been on the back burner for a few years, so maybe I had my head in the clouds from all the bs magazine articles. I know, the internet is always right, (lol) but it seems a stroker kit, when built proper to justify it, really needs a good aftermarket block. Seems the consensus is, by the time you 4 bolt cap/girdle a block, plus short fill(shouldve done that already smh), plus all the other stroker "insurance" prep, its not a -huge- stretch from a good aftermarket block that would be- much- better for the engine I had in my head.
On to the machine shop...I was kind of hot on the way over, and halfway there I realized I needed to chill. Its hard earned money, but I figured Id be shooting myself in the foot going in hot. So I walked in, nobody was there but the owner and his employee, and I kindly rehashed the same concerns I've shared here.
The machinist was -very- apologetic, and he happily agreed to re bore/hone the block with a plate. no charge. I'll buy the darn plate. I'll use it again/sell it/whatever. Still cheaper than taking it somewhere else at this point, right? He also had just cleaned up the decks, but didnt square them to crank/cam datum as he didnt have a fixture for that either. sigh. BUT he is ordering a bunch of new tooling and said he will get a 440 decking fixture also and throw it back on free of charge and square it right. I found out my bro in law has bore gauges to check taper, so Ill follow up myself. The crank was $150, so I kept it. Prolly about all its worth, but its fluxed and turned .010/.010. It also seems many people use cast cranks with lighter pistons to get the bobweight down? I have questions about this Ill ask in another thread to keep it on topic. Gonna leave this open ended for now, until I get hands on block and follow up with more numbers.
As was mentioned earlier, this may be "another one bites the dust", but If I can build a nice 440 out of this yet, Ill consider my stupid tax relatively low. Should've found a more "Mopar" shop, but this is where I'm at today. I expect even a 500hp 440 will be a chore to hook asphalt in a 72 Dart Swinger, so I will have other things to worry about. Anyone thats been following this, Ill appreciate your input in my other thread so I can order what I need. Cheers till next time.