Money vs Horsepower

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I'm hoping to get into the 11s with mine, and I'm sure some laughing gas might get me a little lower...and I'd just be over the$5K mark with my engine. Not cheap parts, just good deals and being at the right place at the right time.
 
Crane Golds don't like big spring pressures........one vote for solid.
I'd give serious thought to a hyd. roller.
They are doing good things with them recently.
You're buying springs and pushrods for any of them.........maybe not the solid , but I would.
Hyd. roller will cost somewhere in between a solid and solid roller , but the put them away wet aspect is a big plus.
 

1970Duster said:
I don't baby anything I own and my 340 is hyd roller setup. Plus it really depends on what you're doing with the car and if it's a stick or auto. Mines an auto so sticking a solid and revving it to 9000 Rpms is pointless when the auto limits how high you can go. Plus I dont have adjust my valve train all the time.
Click to expand...

If you use good quality parts the valve adjustment issue with a Solid is a Myth. Guys like to act as if the Valve covers will be off every weekend or something, such is not the case.
My personal preference is a Solid because of Lifter Failure due to pump up issues and Valve Float. Also I hate the sound of a Hyd set up after it sits for a few weeks on start up with a healthy camshaft. Klackety Klack until the lifters pump back up. Sounds like the motor is going to come apart. I wonder how many people have had their pushrods fall out of the cup or ball of the Rocker Arm while this is going on??
 
ha! I know what your talking about louis!! my 318 did that at first start up...scared me. lol. i think one day, i would like to upgrade to a solid flat tappet. doesnt have to be big, just a mild solid cam sounds good, i like all lifter noise they make. neat.
 
No matter how good the parts are, there is no way a hydraulic lifter of any type can make equal power to a solid of the same type. It's because part of making power is the rate of lift off the seat, and the closing rate. Because of the shock absorption of a hydraulic plunger, and the fact that eventually the required spring pressure will collapse them, they just can't be made "the same". And because of that, they will always be a little short. Hydraulic roller lifter engines lose lift, lose stability, and lose rpm simply for the pleasure of running those lifters. The rpm loss is the only really "feelable" loss, but loss they all are. Coupled with the cost of buying them and the cam I rarely use them. They definately have thier place, but certainly not the be all end all.

Just out of curiosity - and maybe for a new thread... The guys that have hydraulic rollers and had thiers dyno'd... what was your highest output per cubic inch in terms of naturally aspirated hydraulic roller engines? Please give basic engine build stats too.
 
The hyd. roller is definitely not the be all , end all ....... but they show a lot of promise in GM stuff. The " if theirs can do it , so can mine " logic applies to a certain extent.
Thelifters are heavier , they are hydraulic and our options are limited with a MoPar.
But this doesn't sound like a spin it to the moon type of issue.
But for what the O.P. is up to , I think it would be a nice choice.
Given budgetary constraints , it doesn't sound like he is after a maximum effort.
Good power and reliability , cruising and occasional track use.
For the average Joe , this can easily be done with shelf parts and with minimum maintenance.
Each step up the performance ladder has a price tag in dollars and effort.
5k a second may sound extreme , but it isn't ridiculous.
Given the LA platform is the weapon of choice here , the inherent constraints in the valve train are already a limiting factor.
You can make them go really fast , but it sure isn't cheap.
 
Hyd rollers can EASILY turn 7K with proper valve train components. I've blasted the stock rollers that high with no float. I know MANY people that have underestimated the power a hyd roller can put out from very mild duration grinds, including a bunch on this board! I know of one 360 that sounds more mellow than a XE268H cammed 360 and puts out 100+ more HP. Sounds like granny should be driving it.

Nice to know that an auto trans is the limiter on rpm, never knew that... please note sarcasm... Guess the guys running cup engines in the 9500+ range better pull those 904's.

Want to run hyd rollers, run them. Want to go solid rollers, go with it. Want to run a solid flat tappet, have at it. ALL can be built to make good power. I know when I have a hyd roller block, that's my first choice in cam selection because of ease of use.

Metalidart, those two cams you posted won't run close to each other at idle with a +15 at .050 duration on the solid flat. They might make the same power up top, but, the idle will be much more mellow on the roller.

Pick your parts, pay your money.
 
StrokerScamp said:
I'm not trying to argue, but the guy I work for does it MUCH cheaper with all Mopar.......and one Buick. He's been racing almost thirty years. I don't care how "right" it is, if it costs 5K per second, somethin's wrong.
Click to expand...

Agree. This is ridiculous,asking a customer to spend 5k to go from a 14 sec bracket to a 13 sec bracket. Not even if he averaged the money over a 5 second gain,IE; 50 grand to go from 15 seconds to 10 seconds.Now do you see the rippoff?

Still a retarded amount of money,especially seeing how a mopar can run in the 10's for about 5-6 grand if you do all the work and get some deals.
 
I figured one of the drawbacks on the solid flat would be the idle, but I don't mind that so much. I have never ran anything on my mopars but mild hyd flat cams and stock rockers, so even though I've been tinkering with my engines for almost 20 years, this is a fairly steep (and expensive) learning curve for me.

I bought the shortblock used (barely) for less than the price of a cast stroker kit, so I can't complain. But, were I to build it, it would have been the typical build with less compression, and no bushed lifter bores.

As for not using a hydraulic, I understand all the arguements. All the information here has been super-useful to me. I guess they all have their shortcomings and limitations. Honestly, I'd rather just use a hyd flat and put it together and drive it...but I'm a sucker for learning something new.

I can't use a hydraulic, be it flat tappet or roller, because of the bushed lifter bores (at least that is my understanding...)

I'm thoroughly enjoying this thread tho. Keep it going! I am pretty set on the solid flat tappet at this point, but, I have the roller cam still, so who knows...
 
Hughes drop in lifters will work. You don't have to but it doesn't hurt (as long as the oil holes are put in them). I have the Hughes drop in hyd roller lifters with no problems.

Now as far as the auto tranny limit Rpms, it's all about what you're doing with it. Seeing how mine is a setup for street use, I don't need a drag tranny with shift points at 9000 that's just stupid and a waste of fuel, not saying that there is a time a place for them but for the most not needed. It also helps that my e-curve dizzy is set at 6500.
 
Well Mopar as Crackedback can attest to my hydraulic roller turns 524 hp at 5600rpm and 527 ftlbs at 4300 rpm ,which with any stroker is pretty much right were you want to make your power in my book , cranking a stroked small block to 9grand on the street is both retarded and a waste of a good motor when it grenades and at those rpm`s it won`t be long, If your building a 9000rpm strip motor then yes for sure go solid but on the street and on a budget reliability is more important than valve float at an rpm level you`ll never reach .
PS this is only my opinion and not an attack on anyone else`s opinion
4" crank
0.040 over pistons at 10.2:1
custom grind IMM hydraulic roller
RHS heads -IMM ported
RPM Airgap
Holley 950hp
 
Cannucky,very nice.Many people forget a stroker pulls the rpm points of being streetable.
 
If the oil holes weren't drilled in the lifter bushings before being installed I don't think you'll be able to drill them. Run the solid flat tappet, sell what you have. Sorry though the cam is kind of small for me. I'm still thinking about the lifters but you might be able to make a better deal with someone as a package. If you don't sell them let me know. I don't need them right now so it's not a big deal but having spares is always a good idea.
 
Guitar Jones said:
If the oil holes weren't drilled in the lifter bushings before being installed I don't think you'll be able to drill them. Run the solid flat tappet, sell what you have. Sorry though the cam is kind of small for me. I'm still thinking about the lifters but you might be able to make a better deal with someone as a package. If you don't sell them let me know. I don't need them right now so it's not a big deal but having spares is always a good idea.
Click to expand...

I'd be willing to bet that a guy could put the holes in with the kit for the R-3's
My block wasn't drilled so I used it and got creative with the drill.....the fixture is set up for a 3/16ths bit , but I took a #2 center drill to start them and finished with a .093 ( 3/32 " ) and it worked like a champ.
The fixture will drop in a .904 bore and the geometry should be close from the top of the bushing compared to the top of the taller R-3 lifter boss.
 

Attachments

I wanted to add..........5,000.00 to go from 14 to 13 is silly.
I can't argue that.
To go from 12.0 to 11.0 is going to cost you more.
11.0 to 10.0 .......now we're talking real dollars.
To build a 10 second car for under 10 k requires a magic wand........period.
To build a safe , reliable 10 second car starts around double that , and that is starting with a roller.
If you can show me the car , the time slips and the receipts that prove I am wrong , I'll freely admit it.
I do everything but the machining and If it was that cheap , I would have been done two years ago.
 
tubtar said:
I wanted to add..........5,000.00 to go from 14 to 13 is silly.
I can't argue that.
To go from 12.0 to 11.0 is going to cost you more.
11.0 to 10.0 .......now we're talking real dollars.
To build a 10 second car for under 10 k requires a magic wand........period.
To build a safe , reliable 10 second car starts around double that , and that is starting with a roller.
If you can show me the car , the time slips and the receipts that prove I am wrong , I'll freely admit it.
I do everything but the machining and If it was that cheap , I would have been done two years ago.
Click to expand...

Thank you,...That said, I recommend this part of the conversation go to another thread, I think we prolly should not have hijacked the cam guys thread.
 
Speed costs, how fast do you want to go?

Using the cam card specs really doesn't describe the benefit of a roller cam. The two cams may have similar specs but the roller cam, once it begins to open the valve, opens it faster and holds it open at maximum or near maximum lift longer.

Here's a pic from Lunati's website that clearly shows the benefits of a roller cam. In my view, if your budget can afford a roller cam, you should run a roller cam. The benefits are significant.
 

Attachments

Thought on the HYD Subject. Does oil weight play a big roll on how stable the valve will be at Higher RPM's?? I would think thicker oil say Straight 30 or 40 weight or maybe 20/50 would help when choosing to use a Hydraulic wether flat tappet or Roller. Seems you would still loose some lift/stabilization from the plunger but it would be less with the thicker oil. Maybe pump up issues would be less for the guys that are worried about it?

Example of what happened to me.....

I missed a shift in my 70 340 4spd into 2nd gear with a Hyd Flat Tappet, the top end was fresh, New 484 Purple Cam, New Springs, Fresh Valve Job, Head Gaskets etc. The engine revved to about 7200RPM or so, the Valves Floated. It dropped a Valve, took out a cylinder wall, broke 2 pistions put a hole in the block and twisted up a Rod to where you could not tell what it was.
Yeah I know I should have had a REV Limiter but I didn't. This is why I don't like HYD set ups.
 
I agree with going with a Hughes Cam if you're a guy on a budget. They produce the best power in a flat tappet and there's nothing wrong with a hyd cam if you don't plan to spend alot of time above 6500 rpm. You may need to make some mods to accomodate the additional lift, so if that's not in your scope either, then a mopar purple shaft also produces very good power. These cams are designed to get the most out of the large Mopar tappet, whereas most others are a copy of a Chevy grind. If you're going to change the cam, buy one specifically designed for a Mopar and you will get the best performance.

One note for those who think you can just look at duration @0.050....... That does give you a consistant number that can be compared directly but doesn't really give you a picture. Advertised duration is measured at different points on different types of cams and vary from manufacturer, that's why some say to disregard adverised duration, but you can have two cams with 226 duration at 0.050 and be two totally different animals. You can have one that is near 285 duration measured @.006 (as most hyd cams are) and another that's only 270 @.006. Both engines might make similar top end horsepower numbers but the 270 is going to have much more low end horsepower and torque as well as be much more streetable. Basically, the ramps are steeper on that cam allowing more efficient cylinder and the valves are closed longer allowing the engine to better utilize the power. I suggest reading up on the effects a cam has on dynamic compression prior to purchasing a cam.

General rule of thumb, the more duration at .050 with the same advertised duration will have steeper ramps with more gross lift and will have a much flatter power curve. Just make sure that you are comparing apples to apples when comparing one brand or lifter type to another. Large roller cams sometimes cap the lift, making the lobe look more square than egg shaped and gross lift is less of an indicator.
 
If you are on a real budget..take a look at Howard Cams..they now offer cams based on the 904 lifter...at a lot lower price then Hughes...both hydraulic and solids...
 
Guitar Jones said:
If the oil holes weren't drilled in the lifter bushings before being installed I don't think you'll be able to drill them. Run the solid flat tappet, sell what you have. Sorry though the cam is kind of small for me. I'm still thinking about the lifters but you might be able to make a better deal with someone as a package. If you don't sell them let me know. I don't need them right now so it's not a big deal but having spares is always a good idea.
Click to expand...

No problem! I didn't really put them up for sale yet, but I probably will this weekend. Your thinking goes right along with mine, sometime in the future maybe I'll freshen the engine up and go with a roller. This year I'd just like to enjoy it.

tubtar said:
I'd be willing to bet that a guy could put the holes in with the kit for the R-3's
My block wasn't drilled so I used it and got creative with the drill.....the fixture is set up for a 3/16ths bit , but I took a #2 center drill to start them and finished with a .093 ( 3/32 " ) and it worked like a champ.
The fixture will drop in a .904 bore and the geometry should be close from the top of the bushing compared to the top of the taller R-3 lifter boss.
Click to expand...

I have to check, but I'm pretty sure my bushings weren't drilled. That looks like it would work pretty good, from my limited experience, but I'd have to say that I doubt I'd be comfortable doing it. I didn't even know there was a fixture like that! So many different ideas...

valiantwaterman said:
I suggest reading up on the effects a cam has on dynamic compression prior to purchasing a cam.
Click to expand...

That is a good idea. If I get the chance to tinker on the computer tonight, I will try some different ideas. I think my compression will work with the aluminum heads, but I will def have to watch the timing and octane.

The roller cam was specd according to what I told Bullet, and I think that from the info I gave them about my car they came really close to what I want. When you were talking about .050 vs advertised, thats basically how I try to picture the lobe in my mind according to the numbers and lift. The solid flat was specd according to the info I gave Lunati, and my plans did change a bit from the roller to the solid. Lunati seems to think that the solid would do good with my 11.5, edelbrock heads, victor 340, tti header, 3500 stall, and 3.55 or 3.73 gears. Not the optimum combo for the dragstrip, but I still highly doubt that with the stroker it is going to be soggy on low end. I didn't see this cam in their catalog until they showed it to me, otherwise I would have probably chosen it. It appears to be a new cam, on the Voodoo line, Summit doesn't even have a good listing on it.
 
I was facing a similar question because of my intended use and my combination.
Not a ton of R-3 / W-9 street cars out there , but I have made a lot of compromises to achieve what I want.
I did a lot of reading too , but the overwhelming advice was to call Bullet.
You can call Comp , but their phone techs are Chev centric and not what I'd consider pros.
I have no experience with Lunati , but they do make a quality part.
The only problem is that they are kind of generic in what they offer.......if it isn't in their catalog it might not exist in their world.
The guy at Comp had no idea of what I was talking about when I mentioned 48 degree lifter angles and they sell the blanks for these motors , so I had zero confidence in them.
More like zero patience , but I am not going to keep calling until I get the right guy.
Bullet asked the right questions ( weight , gear , flow numbers , compression , intended use , and he forced me to be realistic about that.:D ) and gave me a grind that was very close to what I envisioned....... a little tighter lobe separation , but we talked about that too. I am getting close to putting it on the dyno , but I am fairly sure I am going to be happy.
You will never go wrong by asking questions.....even if I don't like the answers , I learn.:thumleft:
 
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