Need Help with Vinyl Roof Disease on '72 Scamp

[harrisonm]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The problem with rust is that you usually don't see all of it. I bet that all the places Demonic mentioned are shot as well. Ask yourself this, where did the water go that all those huge holes by the rear window go? Into the trunk! So here is the deal, (I've said this before also), If you are a competent welder and you can fix all the damage yourself, then by all means go for it. If, however, you need to pay someone for this, sell it to cut your losses and start off with a nicer solid car.
Also, not quite sure what you meant by, "after I cleaned it up a bit, I realized it was a LOT worse than I thought when I bought the car". All the dirt in the world would not have covered up those rust holes. if you can't repair rust damage properly (welding in new metal) by yourself, then you REALLY need to start off with a much nicer car.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Did the swiss cheese car have a roof in as bad a shape? Let me splain why everyone says to flush a car with a roof like this one.

I am sure you know how a roof is put together on one of these. Maybe you aren't thinking about it, so let me remind you. First, there's the inner roof skin. Then there are many reinforcing braces spot welded to that. Finally, the outer roof skin. That's a three layer sammich. I bet that roof has rust between the braces and outer skin, the braces and the inner skin, all the way down the sail panels, into the trunk (he's just not found it yet), into the rear quarters, all the way down the A pillars, and even into the cowl area and into the front fenders. That car is hiding a LOT more rust than meets the eye. I ga-roan-tee.

I'm kinda surprised at some of the reactions here. Everybody was telling the kid with the Swiss cheese cuda to go for it. You've got a bum lid and everybody's telling you to bail. Scamps are rare and cool, fix it.

Put up a wanted add on here for the Dutchman panel. You'll have one pretty quick and it's easily shippable. You don't need quarters to get the sail panel legs. There's cars getting parted out on here every day and most have rotted lower quarters. Somebody will gladly cut out the upper section for you and it too will ship easily. The roof skin will take a little longer to find locally. They're around though.

A used welder and a spot weld cutter and you're in business. You can learn quick enough to do that. It's not like welding bridge supports. It's only tack welding.

 

[72bluNblu]

Did the swiss cheese car have a roof in as bad a shape? Let me splain why everyone says to flush a car with a roof like this one.

I am sure you know how a roof is put together on one of these. Maybe you aren't thinking about it, so let me remind you. First, there's the inner roof skin. Then there are many reinforcing braces spot welded to that. Finally, the outer roof skin. That's a three layer sammich. I bet that roof has rust between the braces and outer skin, the braces and the inner skin, all the way down the sail panels, into the trunk (he's just not found it yet), into the rear quarters, all the way down the A pillars, and even into the cowl area and into the front fenders. That car is hiding a LOT more rust than meets the eye. I ga-roan-tee.

Inner roof skin?

Uh, no. There is no inner roof skin.

The roof skin on an A body is one layer thick. It’s spot welded in about 200 spots, 50 or so spots per edge. Across the front windshield channel, in the drip rail area on both sides, and across the rear window. It sounds like a lot, but it’s a couple hours with a spot weld cutter.

The only places where there are multiple layers is where the roof skin overlays the pillars, window channels, and hard top structure. And it’s really just the thin flange where the skin is spot welded on. But the parts that are rusted out in the pictures are all the single layer roof skin. Same rust damage as on my bronze Dart GT. Most of that rust can be taken care of with the roof skin replacement. You do need a donor for the roof skin though, they aren’t reproduced.

Pascamp has it right too, you don’t need full quarters. Someone will have those upper quarter/lower C pillar panels. The Dutchman you can buy if you can’t find it.

That’s not a parts car. My bronze GT has a very similar rust damage pattern. Roof skin because of the stupid vinyl top (worst idea ever), some small areas of the upper quarter because of the vinyl coverage there, and the spare tire well. And nothing else. I got a parts car and removed the roof skin, it’s not a big deal at all. Just spot welds to put it back on.

From my parts car (car is long gone, I only have the skin and patches I need for mine now)
Roof skin (single layer of sheet metal)

Structure underneath

 

[RustyRatRod]

What's that on the sides where the sail panels are? Imagination? Who left it your job to run around the site correcting me all the time? Lay off me. I'm not in the mood anymore. There ARE spots on the roof TWO layers thick.....was my point.

Inner roof skin?

Uh, no. There is no inner roof skin.

The roof skin on an A body is one layer thick. It’s spot welded in about 200 spots, 50 or so spots per edge. Across the front windshield channel, in the drip rail area on both sides, and across the rear window. It sounds like a lot, but it’s a couple hours with a spot weld cutter.

The only places where there are multiple layers is where the roof skin overlays the pillars, window channels, and hard top structure. And it’s really just the thin flange where the skin is spot welded on. But the parts that are rusted out in the pictures are all the single layer roof skin. Same rust damage as on my bronze Dart GT. Most of that rust can be taken care of with the roof skin replacement. You do need a donor for the roof skin though, they aren’t reproduced.

Pascamp has it right too, you don’t need full quarters. Someone will have those upper quarter/lower C pillar panels. The Dutchman you can buy if you can’t find it.

That’s not a parts car. My bronze GT has a very similar rust damage pattern. Roof skin because of the stupid vinyl top (worst idea ever), some small areas of the upper quarter because of the vinyl coverage there, and the spare tire well. And nothing else. I got a parts car and removed the roof skin, it’s not a big deal at all. Just spot welds to put it back on.

From my parts car (car is long gone, I only have the skin and patches I need for mine now)
Roof skin (single layer of sheet metal)
View attachment 1715145326
Structure underneath
View attachment 1715145327

 

[Dartnut]

It looks like the car is fixable, but not by you.
Under your own admission, you don't have the tools, knowledge, or experience to tackle this repair by yourself.
You have 3 ways to go here, either get the tools and skills to do this job properly, hire someone with experience and pay them to do it, or sell it to someone who has the skills and patience to do the repair so you can cut your losses and look for a better body to start with.
Be honest with yourself and make the decision on what to do from here.
As posted previously, it isn't that difficult really to repair and replace the roof skin and other rusty areas, however, for a first timer it could be very difficult and overwhelming.
Another point that nobody has mentioned yet, is that the roof skin and body as a whole is a major structure that works together as a unit and makes the car strong and safe to drive.

Whatever you do, DON'T just seal the holes with bondo and foam etc. just so it looks better and think it is safe.
It isn't.

This happened to me about 10 years ago.
I had a nice 99% rust free '70 Dart 4 door.
I was driving at about 60 mph and hit some black ice and barrel rolled the car twice in the ditch.
The windshield popped out, but the rest of the glass stayed in. The roof was crunched in here and there, but not badly.
I was wearing the factory lap belt and was unhurt other than a small cut on my face from the glass.
The car was driveable after this and in fact i drove it about 80 miles home in the middle of winter no less.

If i was driving a 2 door hard top with a rotted roof and did the same thing, i doubt that would have survived the crash at all, and wouldn't of course be typing this.

Food for thought.............

 

[barbee6043]

I vote bail also. Be smart and logical. IF after you have acquired, equipment, tools, experience, skills, parts cars. then attempt if so desired. Find a better example. Pay $1000 shipping if need be, and at least get a car worth doing!???
For every pond of rust you see, there are 10 ponds of hidden rust most every time!! Sand down what looks like rrust free sheetmetal, and many times you al least find pin holes where it rusted from the inside. Then multiply that by 50

 

[Dartnut]

^^^^^^^^Agreed...........

 

[Princess Valiant]

This isn't as bad as it looks ...I did this same repair on a duster many moons ago.

with guidance from this website and reference from countless build threads that show similar repairs ....you should be able to do it.

If I can do it, anyone can.

These cars are not being made anymore and once they die, they are gone forever. We are a privileged few to own these cars in 2018, so to throw this away over a roof wouldn't be an option for me.

The money you put into it now wont mean anything 5 years from now when the car will be worth a lot more anyway. The time you put in is worth a million miles of fun. You will know what is around you when you drive it , if you build it yourself. When you buy a "done" car, who knows.

I would build it for sure

 

[MoparMike1974]

If the rest of the car is truly as clean as you say, why not pass the car on to someone who does have the skills, equipment and desire to fix it. Chances are real good that there is plenty of rust hiding on the bottom half as well. At minimum the trunk floor is shot and floor pans. Not a big deal but I think you should take a real good look over the whole car and evaluate if its worth fixing.

 

[72bluNblu]

What's that on the sides where the sail panels are? Imagination? Who left it your job to run around the site correcting me all the time? Lay off me. I'm not in the mood anymore. There ARE spots on the roof TWO layers thick.....was my point.

The metal on the sail panels, the c-pillar structure, has a gap of about 1” or more to the roof structure. It’s only in contact with the roof skin at the very edge where the skin is spot welded, like I said before. The majority part you see in that picture isn’t attached at all.

Thr roof skin rusts because of the moisture trapped by the vinyl top against the roof skin. The inner structure isn’t sandwiched against the roof skin, so, it doesn’t rust like the outer skin. It’s not like a double thick layer where moisture can be trapped, there’s an air gap. The OP’s car could be worse than mine, but it doesn’t appear to be. The inner structure on my car is completely solid with the same kind of rust to the outer skin.

As far as following you around and correcting you, give me a break. I couldn’t care less about you personally, it’s not some vendetta. Stop putting bad information out there and you won’t get corrected, simple as that. I posted here because I’ve personally removed a roof skin to do the same repair, and it’s not as hard as most people seem to think, not just to argue with you. And what you described in your post simply isn’t true.

 

[GeorgeH]

Did the swiss cheese car have a roof in as bad a shape? Let me splain why everyone says to flush a car with a roof like this one.

I am sure you know how a roof is put together on one of these. Maybe you aren't thinking about it, so let me remind you. First, there's the inner roof skin. Then there are many reinforcing braces spot welded to that. Finally, the outer roof skin. That's a three layer sammich. I bet that roof has rust between the braces and outer skin, the braces and the inner skin, all the way down the sail panels, into the trunk (he's just not found it yet), into the rear quarters, all the way down the A pillars, and even into the cowl area and into the front fenders. That car is hiding a LOT more rust than meets the eye. I ga-roan-tee.

Did the swiss cheese car have a roof in as bad a shape? Let me splain why everyone says to flush a car with a roof like this one.

I am sure you know how a roof is put together on one of these. Maybe you aren't thinking about it, so let me remind you. First, there's the inner roof skin. Then there are many reinforcing braces spot welded to that. Finally, the outer roof skin. That's a three layer sammich. I bet that roof has rust between the braces and outer skin, the braces and the inner skin, all the way down the sail panels, into the trunk (he's just not found it yet), into the rear quarters, all the way down the A pillars, and even into the cowl area and into the front fenders. That car is hiding a LOT more rust than meets the eye. I ga-roan-tee.

Pretty clear you don't remember how these cars were built either. Time to hang it up buttercup!

 

[GeorgeH]

Pretty clear you don't remember how these cars were built either. Time to hang it up buttercup!

I'm not singling anyone out here but I also get a kick when the experts show and demonstrate how clueless they are.

 

[ScamperTom]

Wow, thanks for all the responses, y'all! It's super helpful to hear all these points of view!

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The problem with rust is that you usually don't see all of it. I bet that all the places Demonic mentioned are shot as well. Ask yourself this, where did the water go that all those huge holes by the rear window go? Into the trunk!

Also, not quite sure what you meant by, "after I cleaned it up a bit, I realized it was a LOT worse than I thought when I bought the car". All the dirt in the world would not have covered up those rust holes.

The problem is, I see no indication of serious rust elsewhere whatsoever. The previous owner, after removing the vinyl top, has had the car garage kept for the last 15/20 years, (Without attempting to fix the rust!!??) so there hasn't been water pouring in or anything.

A little rust in there, but surely nothing that would damage the integrity of the car? As for seeing this before I bought it...well, it was definitely my fault. The seller had a patch on it, but I could easily have caught it had I looked more closely.

That car is hiding a LOT more rust than meets the eye. I ga-roan-tee.

For every pond of rust you see, there are 10 ponds of hidden rust most every time!! Sand down what looks like rrust free sheetmetal, and many times you al least find pin holes where it rusted from the inside. Then multiply that by 50

That is the main worrisome point... But again, the pictures I've posted show literally all the visible rust on the car. Can car killing amounts of rust be hidden under perfectly smooth paint?

That’s not a parts car. My bronze GT has a very similar rust damage pattern. Roof skin because of the stupid vinyl top (worst idea ever), some small areas of the upper quarter because of the vinyl coverage there, and the spare tire well. And nothing else. I got a parts car and removed the roof skin, it’s not a big deal at all. Just spot welds to put it back on.

This isn't as bad as it looks ...I did this same repair on a duster many moons ago.

That's how it appears to me. Thanks for the encouragement, y'all!

You have 3 ways to go here, either get the tools and skills to do this job properly, hire someone with experience and pay them to do it, or sell it to someone who has the skills and patience to do the repair so you can cut your losses and look for a better body to start with.
Whatever you do, DON'T just seal the holes with bondo and foam etc. just so it looks better and think it is safe.
It isn't.

The more I think about it, the more I think you're right about the safety factor. It would be a considerable job to glass it all up "properly" anyway, so I might as well go the welded option.

Selling the car is definitely a distant third for me. It has a pro built 318, and... I kinda love it. I would be willing to learn how to do the repair correctly and/or farm out some of the work to a professional.

Sorry for the long post, and thanks again everyone!

 

[72bluNblu]

Wow, thanks for all the responses, y'all! It's super helpful to hear all these points of view!



The problem is, I see no indication of serious rust elsewhere whatsoever. The previous owner, after removing the vinyl top, has had the car garage kept for the last 15/20 years, (Without attempting to fix the rust!!??) so there hasn't been water pouring in or anything.

View attachment 1715145498
View attachment 1715145499

A little rust in there, but surely nothing that would damage the integrity of the car? As for seeing this before I bought it...well, it was definitely my fault. The seller had a patch on it, but I could easily have caught it had I looked more closely.





That is the main worrisome point... But again, the pictures I've posted show literally all the visible rust on the car. Can car killing amounts of rust be hidden under perfectly smooth paint?





That's how it appears to me. Thanks for the encouragement, y'all!



The more I think about it, the more I think you're right about the safety factor. It would be a considerable job to glass it all up "properly" anyway, so I might as well go the welded option.

Selling the car is definitely a distant third for me. It has a pro built 318, and... I kinda love it. I would be willing to learn how to do the repair correctly and/or farm out some of the work to a professional.

Sorry for the long post, and thanks again everyone!

Happy to help!

The thing with vinyl top induced rust is that the top rusts out under the vinyl. Sounds obvious, but what that really means is that the integrity of the metal can actually go away before the vinyl does. So the whole idea of there being worse damage doesn’t necessarily pan out. The vinyl will keep a lot of water out of the car even if it’s over metal with holes in it. I didn’t know how bad the roof skin on my bronze car was until I peeled the vinyl off and it took metal with it. The damage you have to the trunk pan happens all the time on cars that don’t have holes in the roof skin.

As far as learning how to do it, it may look like a daunting task, but replacing the roof skin probably requires the least amount of skill of all the repairs needed. It will take the most time because of the size of the repair. But drilling out one spot weld is the same as another. 200 takes time, but it doesn’t require any more skill than 1, or 5, or 20. And with the roof skin, all of the spot welds are hidden. Under the windshield and back window in the gutters, and under the seam sealer in the drip rail gutters. Even the roof/quarter seam was designed to be filled. So your welds don’t have to be beautiful, they just have to be solid. The edges clamp right to the hardtop structure so it’s easy to locate the roof skin, and it’s hard to warp the panel because of that structure as well. Everything is edge bound except for the quarter seam. So yeah, it takes time, patience, and labor, but not a ton of skill.

The hardest part to fix will actually be the tops of the quarters, because you’ll have a sheet metal-to-sheet metal butt weld on the quarter side of those patches. You can minimize warping by choosing the size and shape of the patch well, but you’re going to be working in the middle of a panel for part of it. And they’re only getting covered by paint and bodywork, so warping it a little has big bodywork consequences. The smallest repair area you have requires the most skill.

The way I see it, you aren’t risking much trying to fix it. The car as a whole with that damage isn’t worth much. If you part it the money will come from the mechanical stuff, the shell by itself will be hard to get more than scrap value for. If you fix it, awesome. If you start into it and do find more rust, you’re only out your time. And if you do some of the work and farm out the hard stuff, you’re still no worse off really. You can buy another car and lose out too, there’s a lot of bondo queens out there.

If you have time and patience, are even a little mechanically inclined, and are willing to take the time and practice some skills, you can tackle a lot of what you need to do.

 

[barbee6043]

I don't think anyone wants to rain on your parade, just be aware of pitfalls that will show up as you get into it.

You will have to obtain a good roof. Someone has to get off the donor some way, and the spot welds on the donor roof will have to be drilled out before you can be it of course. (how many?? I would guess 60). Then remove the rusted roof, and go from there. All rust on this puppy will have to either cut out, sanded off / ground off, then the pitted metal needs to be acid washed to kill the rust in the pits, ( unless it was sandblasted in which case you would have little left.....use weld thru primer, epoxy primed, etc etc.... )

But you are saving another old Mopar, that's great! And learning some great skills along the way. Keep us informed.

 

[72bluNblu]

I don't think anyone wants to rain on your parade, just be aware of pitfalls that will show up as you get into it.

You will have to obtain a good roof. Someone has to get off the donor some way, and the spot welds on the donor roof will have to be drilled out before you can be it of course. (how many?? I would guess 60). Then remove the rusted roof, and go from there. All rust on this puppy will have to either cut out, sanded off / ground off, then the pitted metal needs to be acid washed to kill the rust in the pits, ( unless it was sandblasted in which case you would have little left.....use weld thru primer, epoxy primed, etc etc.... )

But you are saving another old Mopar, that's great! And learning some great skills along the way. Keep us informed.

Man I wish it was only 60!

It was 200 on the roof skin I removed. Not exaggerating, I counted. It’s ~50 spot welds per edge, give or take a couple obviously. Just look at the two edges you can see in the picture I posted above of the roof skin

 

[barbee6043]

Man I wish it was only 60!

It was 200 on the roof skin I removed. Not exaggerating, I counted. It’s ~50 spot welds per edge, give or take a couple obviously. Just look at the two edges you can see in the picture I posted above of the roof skin

One thing about this site it is always educational. I agree with ealier comment , this roof exchange is great place to begin to learn to weld. NO ONE will worp anything here. \\




Some floor repairs, new quarter shins, fix some rust that will appear after DA ing on bottom of fenders, doors, rockers, a little frame repair , GOOD as new!!

 

[Dartnut]

Happy to help!

The thing with vinyl top induced rust is that the top rusts out under the vinyl. Sounds obvious, but what that really means is that the integrity of the metal can actually go away before the vinyl does. So the whole idea of there being worse damage doesn’t necessarily pan out. The vinyl will keep a lot of water out of the car even if it’s over metal with holes in it. I didn’t know how bad the roof skin on my bronze car was until I peeled the vinyl off and it took metal with it. The damage you have to the trunk pan happens all the time on cars that don’t have holes in the roof skin.

As far as learning how to do it, it may look like a daunting task, but replacing the roof skin probably requires the least amount of skill of all the repairs needed. It will take the most time because of the size of the repair. But drilling out one spot weld is the same as another. 200 takes time, but it doesn’t require any more skill than 1, or 5, or 20. And with the roof skin, all of the spot welds are hidden. Under the windshield and back window in the gutters, and under the seam sealer in the drip rail gutters. Even the roof/quarter seam was designed to be filled. So your welds don’t have to be beautiful, they just have to be solid. The edges clamp right to the hardtop structure so it’s easy to locate the roof skin, and it’s hard to warp the panel because of that structure as well. Everything is edge bound except for the quarter seam. So yeah, it takes time, patience, and labor, but not a ton of skill.

The hardest part to fix will actually be the tops of the quarters, because you’ll have a sheet metal-to-sheet metal butt weld on the quarter side of those patches. You can minimize warping by choosing the size and shape of the patch well, but you’re going to be working in the middle of a panel for part of it. And they’re only getting covered by paint and bodywork, so warping it a little has big bodywork consequences. The smallest repair area you have requires the most skill.

The way I see it, you aren’t risking much trying to fix it. The car as a whole with that damage isn’t worth much. If you part it the money will come from the mechanical stuff, the shell by itself will be hard to get more than scrap value for. If you fix it, awesome. If you start into it and do find more rust, you’re only out your time. And if you do some of the work and farm out the hard stuff, you’re still no worse off really. You can buy another car and lose out too, there’s a lot of bondo queens out there.

If you have time and patience, are even a little mechanically inclined, and are willing to take the time and practice some skills, you can tackle a lot of what you need to do.

That's the best advice you will get.
Honest, correct, and right to the point.
Now it's up to you to make your decision............

 

[ScamperTom]

Thanks to all! I'm gonna go with doing the repair the right way ASAP. I have contacts who are willing to help me with the welding and more difficult stuff, so that's a huge part of the problem relieved. I'll update y'all with pictures when I get it finished!

 

[1969VADart]

First, welcome from Fredericksburg, VA.

You essentially have three options:

1. Scrap the car and find a better body. That is probably the most common recommendation you will get with that kind of rust.
2. Find a good donor where you can strip a solid roof skin and just do a roof skin swap. You can do this yourself if you have someone who is generally knowledgeable about body/sheet metal work or if you are.
3. Do something radical like this: They Said It Can't Be Done...Or Don't Even Try.

My Dart roof was in about as bad a shape as yours. I just happened to get lucky and find a perfect donor car. I was also working with an experienced body man, so we tried this radical nonsense together. In the end, it worked. But I also reinforced the subframe because of the complicated body work that we did. As bad as that roof and rear section is, you have to just consider diving in if you don't want to really scrap it. Worse case, it is just time and money.

 

[ScamperTom]

First, welcome from Fredericksburg, VA.

You essentially have three options:

1. Scrap the car and find a better body. That is probably the most common recommendation you will get with that kind of rust.
2. Find a good donor where you can strip a solid roof skin and just do a roof skin swap. You can do this yourself if you have someone who is generally knowledgeable about body/sheet metal work or if you are.
3. Do something radical like this: They Said It Can't Be Done...Or Don't Even Try.

My Dart roof was in about as bad a shape as yours. I just happened to get lucky and find a perfect donor car. I was also working with an experienced body man, so we tried this radical nonsense together. In the end, it worked. But I also reinforced the subframe because of the complicated body work that we did. As bad as that roof and rear section is, you have to just consider diving in if you don't want to really scrap it. Worse case, it is just time and money.

Your car was one of the cases that inspired my to tackle this! I'm going to take the second option. If I could find a car that was that perfect, I think I'd just buy it rather than take it apart...

 

[1969VADart]

Your car was one of the cases that inspired my to tackle this! I'm going to take the second option. If I could find a car that was that perfect, I think I'd just buy it rather than take it apart...

Honestly, I would not recommend option 3 to anyone. That was just a crazy thing to do with people (me) who didn't have any sense having never done a car project before. Interestingly, that donor roof that I used was already cut off of a car. I bought it off of a guy in NC. I asked him why he would even cut up a car like that. He said the rest of the car was a complete wreck. I just can't even imagine given how perfect all that donor material I had was.

 

[ScamperTom]

Honestly, I would not recommend option 3 to anyone. That was just a crazy thing to do with people (me) who didn't have any sense having never done a car project before. Interestingly, that donor roof that I used was already cut off of a car. I bought it off of a guy in NC. I asked him why he would even cut up a car like that. He said the rest of the car was a complete wreck. I just can't even imagine given how perfect all that donor material I had was.

He just didn't want you to know his hot rod project started with a perfect body! I bet y'all had fun tho. No better way to kill time than by (basically) creating your own vehicle!

 

[Frodee]

He just didn't want you to know his hot rod project started with a perfect body! I bet y'all had fun tho. No better way to kill time than by (basically) creating your own vehicle!

that's all fun till you get down to all the work you have to do. I have not followed the trend you started, just went through it real fast so please I mean no harm just want the best for you and your project. Iv'e been a body man all my life over 40 years and I'm not bragging there are a lot of better people to give you advice on this forum than me. BUT With all the rust that I see you better look at the frame, remember it is unabody that means not only that I spelled it wrong but the whole car is the frame including the roof so if you try and glue it and bondo it and seal it, then go and put an engine in there that makes good power. Please don't put your wife and kids in the car and try to go 100 mph or what ever. like I said no harm intended you do what you whant

 

[harrisonm]

This isn't as bad as it looks ...I did this same repair on a duster many moons ago.

with guidance from this website and reference from countless build threads that show similar repairs ....you should be able to do it.

I totally disagree. The OP said he was short those skills, and this is NOT a job for a novice. I am highly experienced at this type of rust repair, and I wouldn't want to touch it. All the help and suggestions in the world won't help if a person lacks the skills and tools to do a job.