OK, HEI in, Voltage not steady

[gdizzle]

Spent the better part of the day finally installing the HEI conversion in my 66 Slant Dart .

Yesterday installed a brand new VR128 (replacing the old Mechanical VR). Prior to installing the HEI conversion, I checked electrical, voltage was at a steady 14.4.
So got busy, replaced Dizzy with a OEM NOS Chrysler electronic distributor, reused my cap and rotor (CH303, CH410). Disconnected old coil, there is a small ground wire going to the alt bracket? not being used now.
Wired up the HEI module, ecoil etc...as mentioned in the instructions on the slant site. I disconnected the ballast and tied all those wires together. I ran a new ground from battery terminal to the radiator support. I connected grounds (1 for module, 1 for Relay) to the radiator support, all paint removed, bare metal, confirmed that ground is good.

Crossed my fingers and it started right up. Sounds alright, maybe needs to be re-timed, but more of a concern is the Voltage is now fluctuating 14.1 - 14.9 and all in between. And when I turn on the lights, or open the door, the entire lighting system - dome, headlights, dash lights etc... pulses in and out rather significantly. This was not something that was happening prior to today.

I know people say polarity might be switched on Dizzy, but would that have anything to do with what is happening?
HELPPPPPP????

 

[KitCarlson]

Have you checked the engine to body ground, and alternator ground? Use voltmeter from battery -, volts should be zero on other grounds, regulator case, and alternator case.

Also check voltage at the place where you joined ballast connection, that should be regulated, typically 13.8 to 14.2V. The difference between that, and the voltage at battery, is bulkhead voltage drop due to bad connections there. The voltage will be higher at battery. Get rid of bad connections, battery voltage will be very close to joined ballast point, or IGN1, on unmodified system.

 

[RPMagoo]

-- but more of a concern is the Voltage is now fluctuating 14.1 - 14.9 and all in between. And when I turn on the lights, or open the door, the entire lighting system - dome, headlights, dash lights etc... pulses in and out rather significantly. --

-- Not sure if this applies, since You eliminated the ballast resistor. -- But -- I had the same problem with My 65 Valiant. - Per a suggestion from this site - I ran a wire from the voltage regulator to the ballast resistor, and Presto - The problem went away. -- My post, a long series of posts, is here somewhere.

 

[KitCarlson]

-- Not sure if this applies, since You eliminated the ballast resistor. -- But -- I had the same problem with My 65 Valiant. - Per a suggestion from this site - I ran a wire from the voltage regulator to the ballast resistor, and Presto - The problem went away. -- My post, a long series of posts, is here somewhere.

Yes the voltage IGN terminal is connected, to IGN1,from the ignition switch. It was in original wiring, and still should be after conversion. We on the help side, have no control over your ability, to read, understand, or connect as necessary. I remember the ordeal.....

 

[RPMagoo]

-- Yes the voltage IGN terminal is connected, to IGN1,from the ignition switch. It was in original wiring, and still should be after conversion. We on the help side, have no control over your ability, to read, understand, or connect as necessary. I remember the ordeal.....

-- I understand what You are saying. -- I don't know the technical reasons why it worked -- But -- the lights stopped flickering, and no additional problems resulted.

 

[TrailBeast]

The distributor connections have zero effect on charging, and the reason the new wire connecting to the ballast fixed the problem is because the new wire allowed the regulator to get a more accurate voltage reading off the ignition system.
(Basically just jumping around something causing a voltage drop to the sense system of the regulator)

 

[gdizzle]

Ok I have bypassed the ballast so none of that makes any difference. For fun, I went ahead and tried running separate new wire from VR to ballast jumper, no diff. I also tried running a new separate wire from the Relay for the HEI from the other side of the old ballast (jumper) , no diff. Checked continuity of wires, all fine. Checked ground potential at battery and mounting of VR, 0.00.
I am getting fluctuating voltage at battery when running engine idle. anywhere from 13.7 to 14.8, no load other than running. When I turn on lights and heater fan, drops to 12.25 and stays very solid. At this point I noted that light pulse is almost gone??

For kicks I put on my older mechanical VR, and it went up into the 15's. Still erradic, though light pulsing was less obvious. Also I thought I started to hear sounds coming from Alternator.

I put the electr VR back on. I drove it down to Oreilly and had them bring out their tester and tested it many times. At first the VR fails. But after 1 minute of running, the VR passes. I looked at the readout when he was doing it, and the voltage is much more steady than my tests. IT still dances around, but not as crazy. Maybe car was warmed up more?? Alternator passes, battery passes.

Other notes: the HEI Module gets super hot (bracket), yes it is on heat sink with thermal paste.
Wires are not getting very warm, neither is the relay for the HEI. BTW I already have headlights on their own relay.

Any ideas?

 

[KitCarlson]

Read post #2.Check voltage at ballast connection. It will indicate if regulator is working. The voltage between ballast connection and battery will indicate if there is voltage drop in bulkhead or other wiring including ignition switch. Dropping voltage to 12.25V indicates poor connections or more problems.....battery, loose belt . ...
Also check battery to alternator stud voltage for drop.

 

[gdizzle]

I just tried the tests in #2, ground strap to block is good. Other gronuds are good. Real hard to determine is there is any drop at the ballast jumper, as the voltage is hopping around 13.8 to 14.9. However it is very close to the same numbers when I test at battery. The jumper at ballast may be .2 lower, but on average it looks the same.
The electronic Voltage regulators, are they designed to either work, or not work? Or is there times where it could be dying or not working 100% accurately? My assumption is the electronic voltage reg should hold voltage steady within .1 or .2, right?
I also am seeing other threads that mention using the 2 wire volt reg with the triangle plug, and that those regulate the opposite leg of electricity? Any truth to that? Can I use that newer style VR on my 1 wire alternator? They sure are cheaper than the vr128.

I have now reinstalled my original alternator (35a from 1963) and it is giving me more volts, closer to 15, however lighting is still pulsating at idle. Idle is at 800.

The entire reason I changed alternators was because I didnt like that my old one was running on the high side 14.8 - 15.5

What next?

 

[BigBlockMopar]

The module getting warm is normal, especially at idling. But it shouldn't really get too hot to touch. If it does, like recently happened with mine, it will crap out shortly.
Last week I just got stranded on the side of the highway because of this, after spending time in heavy, slow moving traffic.
My HEI module was a DynoMod high performance module and I'm running a MSD Blaster SS coil.

I've now added a second HEI module as spare under the hood, and even went through the trouble of using computer CPU fancoolers to cool the HEI module.

My alternator is a modern Ford 3G alt, which normally puts out a very steady 14.4v at idle. Only recently I've noticed the charging voltage went up to 15volts, which might have caused the ignition module to fail as well.
All grounds are checked and good.

I think you need a better VR, and actually a better (newer) alternator as well, perhaps one with an internal VR.

 

[KitCarlson]

Regulators control the field current, that regulates the alternator output. The regulator has a sense input, labeled IGN, on the original unit. When the IGN voltage is under 13.8 V, the regulator switches the field "on". With the field "on" the alternator increases the voltage, when it is slightly above 13.8V, the field is turned "off". It switches field quickly, and the inductance of the field winding averages the current, and the current value is related to the duty cycle or percent of time "on", and "off". It works very much like the thermostat on a heating unit, when temperature is below setting, furnace is on, when the heat increases, the furnace shuts off. The colder it is, the more the furnace runs to keep up with heat lost in insulation. The difference is the house has large inertia, and the on-off cycles are several minutes, the alternator regulator is quicker by thousands.

The regulator switches field on, and the power comes from the IGN circuit, the same power that comes from the ignition switch, and also powers the HEI, and coil + terminal. If that power feed is soft, due to poor connection, as the field is powered, the voltage drops, and the regulator demands more .... poor connections can result in instability, and varying voltage.

Instead of measuring IGN, and battery voltage separately, and saying they are nearly the same, is not the same as measuring the drop, between IGN, and Battery + terminal. That will give measure the voltage drop, at same instant of time. A good reading should be near zero, no drop. If there drop, more than 0.1V or so, that varies, that is the problem.

The early alternators had one field connection grounded to case, the green is powered by the regulator as discussed above. The later alternators bought both field connections out. When new regulator is used one one field is directly connected to IGN, and the regulator switched the other field connection to ground, completing the circuit. In electrical terms early regulators are high side switched, later switch on the low side (ground). There are good technical reasons for the change, but solid-state early replacement regulators work fine.
A late alternator can be used with a early regulator if one field connection is grounded at alternator, same electrically as in early alternator.

 

[gdizzle]

OK, I redid test #2 with engine warmed, but off with key on. Battery was reading 12.57, jumper at ballast was reading 12.16. I didnt disconnect the jumper, I just jammed in probe into the back of one of the jumper terminals where there is 2 wires coming from ignition.

 

[KitCarlson]

Was car running? If it was, the alternator is not working. There is about 0.4V drop, any loads on?Why are those different than before. I think I am near the end of my help. Please read, and try to understand post #11. Ask questions.

 

[gdizzle]

Was car running? If it was, the alternator is not working. There is about 0.4V drop, any loads on?Why are those different than before. I think I am near the end of my help. Please read, and try to understand post #11. Ask questions.

Hi thanks for all the help. Those readings I was giving was with car not running, but key turned to run.
So more tests:
Test 12:
Engine cold, Key at Run position, Old alternator, new Elect VR, Battery reading 12.4, reading at Ignition wire at old Ballast junction to ground is 11.83.

Test 13: Engine cold, Key at Run, New alternator, another new Elect VR, Ran new ground connecting VR, Battery, Alt and HEI, ran a new jumper at VR for ignition Blue wire going direct to Starter relay stud, Battery reading 12.23, reading at Ignition wire at old Ballast junction to ground is 12.17

note the Ballast junction test, I disconnect the jumper so it is not running to the relay.

Lights are still flickering with the new setup, but not as drastic. And seems to improve and engine warms up.

now what?

 

[KitCarlson]

Here are some observations, the best I can. Test #12, car off, but really need car on. You have about 0.6 V drop, too much for lightly loaded. My guess bulkhead connections are poor. I was expecting car to be running and, measurement made between battery, and bypass point. I guess somehow that was missed.

#13 Hooking blue wire to starter stud, will power with ignition off, and run battery down.....

Best of luck, hope others help, I am not good at using my words.

 

[gdizzle]

KitCarlson, dont give up on me yet, you are my lifeline. Good catch on the running battery down thing, you were right, I disconnected in time so it didnt die on me. At this point, I have now run new ignition wire from HEI relay to the jumper at ballast, I have installed another new VR128, I have run a new ground wire connecting VR, Alt , HEI and battery ground terminal. I also installed new Spark plugs with a .45 gap.
I am at a bit of a loss, as I had none of these issues when I was running Points.
Last night I started it up, turned on lights and heater, checked voltage at battery at it was sitting at a very consistent 14.4. If I revved it up lights dim/bright, but at idle it is not flickering. hummm...

Then tonight I witnessed, driving for a bit, at idle no flickering lights, but while driving, a nice steady dim pulsing in all lights.
I parked and let it keep running with lights, checked voltage and it was at 15.5 - 15.7.? So I then revved it up and it went down to 14.7 - 14.9 and stayed. Then turned off lights and it went to 14.4 and then bounced around 14, through 14.9.
Then something interesting, I got in car (still running) at idle and with lights off noticed that the car is pulsing (headlights off, interior lights on) I can hear the pulse, I turn on the headlights and the pulsing stops and the lights (interior and heads) do NOT pulse.
What in the heck can that mean?

When it is pulsing, it is like it is dim, then starts to get brighter steadily, then dips down dim again, this continues over and over.This happens 2 times per second.

Head lights are on their own relay BTW.

 

[KitCarlson]

Yes, I know your voltage is not steady. I have tried to help tell you why, a few times, post #11 a good example. You could confirm the problem if you make a couple voltage measurements, and I have asked before.

1. With car running measure voltage of IGN terminal of regulator, with voltmeter, red lead on IGN, black lead regulator ground. I expect to see around 13.8 to 14.2V. That would be normal, suggesting regulator is good.
2. Then move black lead to battery +, keeping read lead where it was. I will expect to see a negative voltage that varies, and ranges between about few tenths, and a 2V. That variation is not good, it means the battery voltage is higher than IGN terminal, only a few tenths is OK. It is the drop between the IGN terminal, and the battery. To get there from the battery there are a number of connections. I will try to list them, battery terminal to solenoid stud, to bulkhead Z terminal, to ammeter, on to main junction, to J1 of ignition switch, then to J2 of "run" key position to terminal Q of bulkhead, that goes to ballast terminal also IGN terminal of regulator.

You have a drop, due to faulty wiring, or connection. Or something like a flasher, or circuit breaker shorted to ground in that path consuming significant pulsating current. I only say the latter because there is an accessory circuit breaker shown feeding from ammeter, and a turn signal flasher fed from the "acc" terminal of ignition switch, you would hear those, and the period could be at the 1/2 second intervals.

 

[gdizzle]

I printed that instructions KitCarlson, and had time to run that test before I left to work.
1. Battery reading cold - 12.46
2. Battery reading when key to Run (engine still off) - 12.25 and slowly drops 100th of volt every 30seconds.
3. Battery reading car started and warmed up (idle), 14.6 to 15.3, never steady just bouncing around that range.
4. IGN term(at VR) and reg ground (still running), 14.3 - 15.1, never steady just bouncing around that range.
5. Black lead to battery +, red lead still on IGN, -.1 to -.4
Now same tests with load headlights, heater:
3A. Battery reading (still running), 14.5 - 15.4, never steady
4A. IGN term(at VR) and reg ground (still running), 13.7 - 14.9, never steady
5A. Black lead to battery +, red lead still on IGN, -1.0 to -.3

I also noted that when I loaded the system with headlights, I began to hear a faint whirring sound (like a pulse) coming from the alt area. Switching lights off, the whirring ceases.

Also i tried unplugging the Flasher, and no difference.

I am curious what might happen if I removed belt from Alternator, however since HEI is powered from Alt stud, not sure how I would then power the HEI? temporarily of course.

The battery is 1.5yrs old, though I have never had it tested. Never had a problem with not starting.
The alternator is 1 week old (reman) single field, 55a, it is the 3rd alt this month.
The VReg is VR128, and is brand new, 2nd one this month.

Ammeter has been bypassed (long ago) by simply cutting the wires and taping them together.

Is there a way for me to basically run temporary new wires around the bulkhead for each of the wires needed for the car to run? Like somehow bypass the ignition switch? possible?

 

[TrailBeast]

Here's a couple of simple explanations that might ease your mind.
1. Alternators whine when put under a load (especially our older ones)
2. The lights flicker because by using relays for lighting and such, you have taken some of the amp load off of the 30 feet of wiring it used to run through.

Result = an electrical system that was made for those amp draws to steady the load on the electrical system and regulator and now doesn't = bouncing volts.
My car and craploads of other cars do the same thing after all the same things you did, and I am going to live with it
Personally I think it's more that the OE style regulator isn't made to regulate so low of a draw on the system, but I'm sure others have other opinions.

My charging system worked perfect until put the headlights on relays and started using LED lights.
What changed?
Less amp draw through OE wiring.

 

[BillGrissom]

I always tell young engineers at work that when erratic electrical issues are mentioned in a meeting, just say, "must be a ground problem", and they will turn out to be a genius 90% of the time. How did you ground the case of your VR? I hope not relying on a rusty sheet-metal screw into the painted body like the factory did. Worked OK thru the warranty period, but not 50 yrs later. Evaluate if each component is doing its job. The VR strives to regulate a pre-set voltage from its case to the IGN wire (by modulating current flow on the "field" wire). If you measure that is steady, it is doing its job. Your job is to make the voltage drop from VR case to BATT- very close to zero. A jumper wire might do better than a mounting screw. Ditto, the HEI module must have its case solidly grounded, though I agree unlikely that the HEI and Vreg interact, unless your wiring is really funky. BTW, you can buy a relay base to better manage those individual wires on the relay (looks like a future problem).

 

[KitCarlson]

Bill,
I tried to cover grounds in post #2, and in a separate thread by OP, about HEI wiring, suggested ground at HEI. I am done here, please help .....

 

[gdizzle]

I am eagerly printing all these posts. Thanks bill , I did already install a new ground wire going from VR screw(all paint scraped and new screw) to battery neg to alt case to hei module. The engine is strapped to firewall and checks out. I could run a new field wire from alt to vr.

 

[BillGrissom]

Great work. On the flip-side, if you measure dV from case to IGN at the VR is similarly fluctuating, that suggests the VR isn't doing its job. It could be defective, or more likely the alternator is involved. Perhaps its field requirements are too much for the VR so it is overheating and shutting down briefly. The alternator case ground could also be erratic.

Long ago I installed a rebuilt alternator in my 69 Dart and still no charging. I then ran a jumper cable from the alternator case to BATT- and it worked. The engine to BATT- ground was fine, it was just slight corrosion where the alternator bolted to the bracket (slant six), which a little sanding cured. I then put the original alternator back and got a refund, all that in the auto parts parking lot. BTW, that was in GA, not dry CA. Battery terminals also need regular cleaning to avoid strange things.

Finally, sounds like you eliminated the dash ammeter (post 18), but the alternator output (ALT) still routes thru the cabin to get to the battery (BAT). That bulkhead connector is a constant source of problems (many posts), except in 1963 & 1965 cars which ran those wires thru solid "buss bars". Yes, you can bypass that. Search "MAD Bypass". You simply run a thick wire (8 awg or larger) from the alternator output (big stud) to BATT+, which is easiest accessed at the big stud on the starter relay in a slant. Those with a small block can run it straight to battery across timing cover, as Magnum engines did. Also "taping them together" sounds iffy. Most put both wires on one ammeter stud. Keep those wires to feed the cabin fuse box (via ALT wire). My cars (64 & 65) also have a "fused junction" on that ALT wire. It isn't solder, but more of a quasi-weld that tends to corrode, and often needs attention. You will find it under the vinyl wrap.

 

[KitCarlson]

Ammeter has been bypassed (long ago) by simply cutting the wires and taping them together.

 

[gdizzle]

Been a few days, gave you guys a break
I did all of this:
For fun, bought a new 2 field (squareback) alt along with a new VR (triangle plug type), hooked it all up (did the proper wiring for field etc... as shown on MOPAR charging upgrade page). It made no difference. Same bouncy volts, and same pulsating lights as before. Took everything back for refund the next day.

Now I went ahead and cleaned the bulkhead (deoxit), then I cut the large wires and did the Ammeter bypass (already bypassed). I also cleaned the starter switch and sanded the terminals a little. I unwrapped the red/black wires where he had joined them (they were twisted and soldered and taped.) I retapped and put on 2 layers of heatshrink. I then joined the red/black wires near the inside bulkhead (after I cut them) and added a 10g wire and ran it out to the engine bay via a hole. Then I took that 10g wire and connected it to a 16g wire which is then connected to starter relay. I then disconnected the black wire at alt as it is no longer being used. Seeing as previously I had wired 2 10g wires with fuses directly from alt to battery +.

Started it all back up, and no difference. I did take the opportunity to wire in a new digital Voltmeter, so now I can see the volts bobbing around while I drive. There is one moment where, if I put it in gear, and keep brakes on, the volts drop down to around 13.3 and remain very steady.
Thanks for all your help guys. I think I now have peace of mind, and I feel confident that my car wont catch on fire. And I have to assume that the swtich to HEI is going to magnify the pulsating. I can live with it.
over and out