Order of operations

-

Hallzy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2017
Messages
262
Reaction score
267
Location
Alberta,Canada
Sorry if my questions seem dumb but i am a total rookie
I am doing a 2bbl to 4bbl swap also cam lifters and timing chain
I am assuming i should do the cam and timing first because i know my two barrel setup is running good and this would probably aid the cam break in if it do the intake and carb at the same time and don't get it right i will probably wreck a lobe or lifter or something is my line of thinking correct? Any advise is much appreciated
 
Agree . K.I.S.S. Break cam in with 2bbl is ok . I've done it with success. Just as easy is doing it all at once . the difference is gaskets and time . Do not let engine idle during cam break in .
 
Agree . K.I.S.S. Break cam in with 2bbl is ok . I've done it with success. Just as easy is doing it all at once . the difference is gaskets and time . Do not let engine idle during cam break in .
I'm just worried that if I don't get the carb bang on the first go it could lead to problems on the break-in
 
this a v8?

personally i'd do it all at once..

gotta pull it all anyway to do the cam. may as well put the 4 bbl on when buttoning it up. only have to rev to 2000 rpm or so durin breakin so i doubt it will be that far out. i'd be more worried about the oil i used to break in the cam..
 
I would do it all at once as well, but I understand the caution for someone not that familiar with doing it.
 
this a v8?

personally i'd do it all at once..

gotta pull it all anyway to do the cam. may as well put the 4 bbl on when buttoning it up. only have to rev to 2000 rpm or so durin breakin so i doubt it will be that far out. i'd be more worried about the oil i used to break in the cam..
Yes 318
 
Oh-Oh

got headers? and duals and a freeflowing exhaust. Do these first, then the 4bbl.
I would leave the cam for some other day. It doesn't take much of a cam increase and the bottom end gets soggy. Then you will need a TC to get over that, and then the little teener will need some rear gears.
So to recap, Any performance cam more than about 2 sizes bigger than what you have, will need to be accompanied by a TC and gears.Otherwise you will be in for disappointment.The only cure for this is more compression.
>Once you have the exhaust system installed and the 4bbl, the next thing I would recommend is a 2800 TC. And the next is at least 3.55s with a 2.45 low tranny; or if you have a 2.74 low tranny, then 3.23s. Now you are ready for a cam. Easy does it!

>I installed TTIs and full-length 3 inch duals, with a small-port C.I. intake and a Thermoquad. I used the A999 and 3.55s,And the rest of the combo as above. I absolutely loved it.It was my winter combo for 5 years running. Awesome little torquer.Oh yeah I swapped on some 360 springs and 273 rocker gear, and revved it to 5000 or occasionally 5500.
>Any cam you put into it will trade away low rpm torque,( which you by that time will have become very enamored of), for high rpm power, which your heads are not set up for. There are a couple of cam sizes that kindof cover both ends, but IMO, try the above recipe first.
>And no you don't need the dual 3s. Those were already in my chassis for my 367 summer-stormer.And no, with the factory cam, you might not need headers either, But you are looking ahead to the day you might want a bigger cam and then you will need them, or else the bigger cam will not only destroy the bottom end torque, now it will also not make much more on the top.And in the meantime, the headers in conjunction with the freeflowing exhaust will show a nice punch in the midrange, and with adequate spring control, will continue to help as the Rs climb. But if you choke the headers with straws well then, they are kindof a waste of money.
What I'm saying is, in my experiences since stuffing teeners into everything since 1975ish and mixing and matching 340 parts to them, the best combo I ever had was this lowly, low-compression, 73 teener, huffing through that max-flow exhaust, with nothing more than a TQ and small-port dual-plane. intake.
>And the worst combo was when I put a complete 1969 340 top end and cam, into a teener, and stuffed that into a 1971 Monaco with 2.94s and it's 727
And the second worst was same engine into a 73Swinger with 2.73s, and a 904.
>Swapping the other way; I once put a compete teener top end and cam, onto a 340 with 2bbl and all, into a 65 V200 longroof with fenderwell headers,a 904, and whatever miserable 7.25 gears were in that baby.That was an awesome city pkg. I ran 2.25 straight pipes to a pair of Thrush shorties ,under axle pipes, and straight back to under the rear bumper.Smash the gas pedal right at idle and light 'em up.I always refer to that engine as my big-bore teener, cuz effectively,that was what it was.
 
Last edited:
Oh-Oh

got headers? and duals and a freeflowing exhaust. Do these first, then the 4bbl.
I would leave the cam for some other day. It doesn't take much of a cam increase and the bottom end gets soggy. Then you will need a TC to get over that, and then the little teener will need some rear gears.
So to recap, Any performance cam more than about 2 sizes bigger than what you have, will need to be accompanied by a TC and gears.Otherwise you will be in for disappointment.The only cure for this is more compression.
>Once you have the exhaust system installed and the 4bbl, the next thing I would recommend is a 2800 TC. And the next is at least 3.55s with a 2.45 low tranny; or if you have a 2.74 low tranny, then 3.23s. Now you are ready for a cam. Easy does it!

>I installed TTIs and full-length 3 inch duals, with a small-port C.I. intake and a Thermoquad. I used the A999 and 3.55s,And the rest of the combo as above. I absolutely loved it.It was my winter combo for 5 years running. Awesome little torquer.Oh yeah I swapped on some 360 springs and 273 rocker gear, and revved it to 5000 or occasionally 5500.
>Any cam you put into it will trade away low rpm torque,( which you by that time will have become very enamored of), for high rpm power, which your heads are not set up for. There are a couple of cam sizes that kindof cover both ends, but IMO, try the above recipe first.
>And no you don't need the dual 3s. Those were already in my chassis for my 367 summer-stormer.And no, with the factory cam, you might not need headers either, But you are looking ahead to the day you might want a bigger cam and then you will need them, or else the bigger cam will not only destroy the bottom end torque, now it will also not make much more on the top.And in the meantime, the headers in conjunction with the freeflowing exhaust will show a nice punch in the midrange, and with adequate spring control, will continue to help as the Rs climb. But if you choke the headers with straws well then, they are kindof a waste of money.
What I'm saying is, in my experiences since stuffing teeners into everything since 1975ish and mixing and matching 340 parts to them, the best combo I ever had was this lowly, low-compression, 73 teener, huffing through that max-flow exhaust, with nothing more than a TQ and small-port dual-plane. intake.
>And the worst combo was when I put a complete 1969 340 top end and cam, into a teener, and stuffed that into a 1971 Monaco with 2.94s and it's 727
And the second worst was same engine into a 73Swinger with 2.73s, and a 904.
>Swapping the other way; I once put a compete teener top end and cam, onto a 340 with 2bbl and all, into a 65 V200 longroof with fenderwell headers,a 904, and whatever miserable 7.25 gears were in that baby.That was an awesome city pkg. I ran 2.25 straight pipes to a pair of Thrush shorties ,under axle pipes, and straight back to under the rear bumper.Smash the gas pedal right at idle and light 'em up.I always refer to that engine as my big-bore teener, cuz effectively,that was what it was.
Thanks for all the good info
My Car is already dual exhaust 2 1/4 just cats stock manifolds went with a real easy cam summit 6900 with a performer intake and an eddy 1406 I may have a lock on some 302 casting swirlport heads as for rear end it's a 8.25 not sure of the gears yet but it likely is granny gears which I will be changing for sure thinking for tc probably 2400
not looking for a rocket just a decent little runner
 
Cam Style: 6900; Hydraulic flat tappet
Basic Operating RPM Range: 1,200-5,000
Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift: 204
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift: 214
Duration at 050 inch Lift: 204 int./214 exh.
Advertised Intake Duration: 278
Advertised Exhaust Duration: 288
Advertised Duration: 278 int./288 exh.

This cam may be small on performance, but it ridiculously effective at blowing torque away. Check out the slowest ramps ever; 278-204=74 degrees. And all those degrees do is bleed compression. I urge you NOT to install that thumper.
An ICA of 65* with an Scr of 8/1 will blow the Dcr into lawn-mower territory at 6.25/115psi corrected to 1000ft altitude. This cam will be so soggy you will regret the day you ever saw it. And the worse thing is that it will just start to wake up when that teener runs out of revs. I hate to be harsh, but IMO, that is about the worst cam in the world,according to the printed specs.
You might also consider that your engine might not be making even 8/1 Scr. And if it is tired it will be yet worse.
That cam will require nearly 11/1 compression to run decent, but because it is just a 204@050, it really won't make much power at all. Send it back,immediately!
Again, sorry to sound harsh

not looking for a rocket just a decent little runner
Then follow the combo. Forget about a cam for now.
 
Cam Style: 6900; Hydraulic flat tappet
Basic Operating RPM Range: 1,200-5,000
Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift: 204
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift: 214
Duration at 050 inch Lift: 204 int./214 exh.
Advertised Intake Duration: 278
Advertised Exhaust Duration: 288
Advertised Duration: 278 int./288 exh.

This cam may be small on performance, but it ridiculously effective at blowing torque away. Check out the slowest ramps ever; 278-204=74 degrees. And all those degrees do is bleed compression. I urge you NOT to install that thumper.
An ICA of 65* with an Scr of 8/1 will blow the Dcr into lawn-mower territory at 6.25/115psi corrected to 1000ft altitude. This cam will be so soggy you will regret the day you ever saw it. And the worse thing is that it will just start to wake up when that teener runs out of revs. I hate to be harsh, but IMO, that is about the worst cam in the world,according to the printed specs.
You might also consider that your engine might not be making even 8/1 Scr. And if it is tired it will be yet worse.
That cam will require nearly 11/1 compression to run decent, but because it is just a 204@050, it really won't make much power at all. Send it back,immediately!
Again, sorry to sound harsh
No worries I appreciate your knowledge I had read multiple times that was a good cam to go with. As far as all the numbers go it may as well be written in Klingon as I have no idea what it all means honestly.
 
And that sucks anybody in Canada wanna buy a new cam never been out of the box shipping it back to summit will be half the cost I paid for it
 
Subscribed. I did a little search here on FABO of threads about 318 cams and came up with a whole list. Like AJ said it doesn't take much of a cam before you need a converter and/or gears. I have the 6900 Summit cam on the list and the more I read the more I am understanding about this kind of cam. From what I know I would never use a 278°-288° cam in a almost stock 318 but the @.050 numbers and how they work together is where it's at. I read in a post somewhere not to use a cam with more than 220°@ .050 with a stock converter and less than a 3.23 gear. Like a dummy I put 255 60 15's on my Swinger to magnify the issue with my 3.23 gear. I have a LD4B and a 600 Edelbrock waiting in the wings. I thought some 340 manifolds and a nice exhaust system might work good. I'm just a little shaky on changing the cam. A lot more work and expense for something not much bigger than what I already have. Rusty seems to like the Comp 265 DEH.
211-227
265-276
.442-464 110°

Similar but a little more.
 
Howards has a HRS-711381-10 that looks interesting. 208/214 255/261 .479/.494 110°
 
IF
You go shopping for a cam, and
If
you are gonna NOT bump up the compression
then your options are limited.and
then you want the cam to have the fastest ramps ever.
If
you are stuck with flat-tappets, that limits your choices even more.
> there are FTH cams available with ramp allowances down to about 40*.
The factory teener cam IIRC is a 240/248/114 advertised. This well get you a Dcr of 6.74@128psi, with an Scr of 8.0. Now you already know how this performs from idle to 2400 rpm where that cam is making close to peak torque, right? Decide for yourself how much of that torque are you willing to give up, cuz any cam bigger than that 240*, with no other changes, is gonna give some of that away, that is just how it works.
I do not know the 050on that cam, but I suspect it is about 196*. That would mean the ramp allowance is 240 less 196 is 44 degrees.
So assuming a 6* change is one cam size, and you went up 2 sizes from 196 to 208@050, then in order to maintain the current bottom-end torque your ramp allowance would need to be 240 less 208=32*. That won't happen with a FTH cam. But you might be able to get a custom cam with ramps down at 40*. That would get you an advertised of 208 plus 40=248*. If you then tightened up the LSA to 112 and installed it so that the ICA was 54*, then the Dcr would be 6.74@128. Now that is magic.You now have the exact same advertised duration,which keeps the low-speed characteristics, and an advertised that is about 2 steps greater, which will push the power peak up about 300 rpm. What does that mean in terms of horsepower? not much, but it's better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick!
Keep in mind that I guessed at the 050 of the factory cam. If it is less than 196 then the advantage to fast ramps is even greater.
This is another time when a custom cam can be worth it's weight in gold. If you or anyone is willing to give up some lift,to get some 050 duration, I think it would be possible to grind a really fast rate of lift, on a really small advertised lobe to get a lot of 050. Maybe as fast as a solid. The penalty might be lift,rpm,or lobe life with a lot of spring pressure. But I tell you what; I would try it. So what if the rev-limit was 5000 or say 5200, that is all the heads are good for anyway. I would tighten up the LSA to say 106, and just crank grinder to maximum overdrive and spit out a cam something like this; 252/258/106 in at 102. With an 8.0 Scr, and an ICA of 48*, the Dcr would come in at 6.95@ 133psi. Check it out! More Dcr! and 2 sizes bigger on the advertised. If the ramps were to be down at say 38*, this would get you a cam that is 252 less 38 =214 @050! That's gonna spin some tires!
Finally 214* compared to 196* is about 2.5 sizes bigger. This cam because of the same short advertised will be fairly happy with the stock TC and the stock gears; it will just accelerate a whole buncha faster. But If you did increase the TC and/or gears, it would just be so much quicker....
Now, this is all so much theory! Call a cam-grinder and see what he is willing to cut for you. See if theory can become a reality.
I realize that this kind of stuff is kindof mumbo-jumbo to some, if someone were to translate this into reality, I think there would very quickly be a bunch of teener cams like this being sold, instead of the ilk that is out there. Of course they might sell fewer TCs and gears,lol.
 
Last edited:
IF
You go shopping for a cam, and
If
you are gonna NOT bump up the compression
then your options are limited.and
then you want the cam to have the fastest ramps ever.
If
you are stuck with flat-tappets, that limits your choices even more.
> there are FTH cams available with ramp allowances down to about 40*.
The factory teener cam IIRC is a 240/248/114 advertised. This well get you a Dcr of 6.74@128psi, with an Scr of 8.0. Now you already know how this performs from idle to 2400 rpm where that cam is making close to peak torque, right? Decide for yourself how much of that torque are you willing to give up, cuz any cam bigger than that 240*, with no other changes, is gonna give some of that away, that is just how it works.
I do not know the 050on that cam, but I suspect it is about 196*. That would mean the ramp allowance is 240 less 196 is 44 degrees.
So assuming a 6* change is one cam size, and you went up 2 sizes from 196 to 208@050, then in order to maintain the current bottom-end torque your ramp allowance would need to be 240 less 208=32*. That won't happen with a FTH cam. But you might be able to get a custom cam with ramps down at 40*. That would get you an advertised of 208 plus 40=248*. If you then tightened up the LSA to 112 and installed it so that the ICA was 54*, then the Dcr would be 6.74@128. Now that is magic.You now have the exact same advertised duration,which keeps the low-speed characteristics, and an advertised that is about 2 steps greater, which will push the power peak up about 300 rpm. What does that mean in terms of horsepower? not much, but it's better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick!
Sounds like I should just do the intake and carb and then follow up with manifolds and exhaust. It doesn't look like there are any magic bullets for cams. LOL
 
Ironmike
I added some stuff to post 16. You could be the guy, the first guy, the pioneer. Order up a custom cam with really really fast ramps, on a really tight LSA, and report back. That 252/258/106 is just an example, but it wants headers cuz the overlap is up around 43* same as a 340 cam, and they responded well to headers. The overlap period is an event unto itself and can be exploited to add quite a bit of power. Now as overlap goes, 43* ain't much, but it is over twice what the factory teener was. A 284/292/108 cam for instance, has 72* and makes that cam come alive!,compared to the same cam on a 112LSA, which had just 64*.
Make the call Mike! Be the first!Don't forget the headers! Run 3inch pipes into 3 pass muffler with 3" inlets and anything at all for tps.I would do it but I don't do teeners anymore,lol. For sure run a crossover of anykind.

Use extreme caution, your results may vary,lol
 
Last edited:
Ironmike
I added some stuff to post 16. You could be the guy, the first guy, the pioneer. Order up a custom cam with really really fast ramps, on a really tight LSA, and report back. That 252/258/106 is just an example, but it wants headers cuz the overlap is up around 43* same as a 340 cam, and they responded well to headers. The overlap period is an event unto itself and can be exploited to add quite a bit of power. Now as overlap goes, 43* ain't much, but it is over twice what the factory teener was. A 284/292/108 cam has 72* and makes that cam come alive!,compared to the same cam on a 112, which had just 64*.
Make the call Mike! Be the first!Don't forget the headers! Run 3inch pipes into 3 pass muffler with 3" inlets and anything at all for tps.I would do it but I don't do teeners anymore,lol. For sure run a crossover of anykind.

Use extreme caution, your results may vary,lol
Thanks for all the help here for both of us. Naw, I have a hard enough time getting a project done without having to do it over again. If I was to go with headers (which I don't want to deal with) I would just build a 360 or a stroker and then the converter and gears would be a whole package. I have a roller block 318 and some 302 heads in the garage.How much trouble would I get in if I used those 302's on my 70 teen block?The 70 teens are supposed to have 9:1 static. How much does the closed chamber heads raise the compression? Danger zone?
 
Last edited:
Mike
You are in a unique position with a roller block. Roller cams can be ground with exceptionally fast rates. This means that you might not need a tight LSA cam. You might be able to do it all on the lobes and with a greater LSA.
Mike, as to compression, I am of the opinion that this should be worked out last. I think the #1 priority is to choose where you want the power to be, and how wide the powerband needs to be.
An automatic car needs a different cam from a stick car, simply because of the different gear ratio spreads each one runs. Chrysler knew this back in 68 when they spec'ed different cams for 340 stick cars from autos. The following year, after the 340-excitement had died down, they snuck the auto cams into the stick cars.
So once those two have been decided, there is no going back, so choose carefully. Then once those are written in stone, and all the other various engine parameters are known, and the altitude at which the engine is going to be operating in are known; THEN you can plug these numbers into the Dcr calculator, which will the spit out a Scr number that you want to target.But before that you need to decide what fuel you are going to burn and What Dcr to target. And if you screw up the Dcr choice,you screw everything up.So this is, if you are interested in optimum performance, the most important decision of all.
If you just want something to DD, or cruise around with, then running on the edge is of a lessor importance, cuz the majority of the time the engine will be heavily throttled and the Effective Dcr is gonna be in the basement anyway.
But if you want to run hard, then the Dcr choice becomes much more important.
If you are gonna be tracking it a lot, then the Dcr can go one of two ways. You can throw it out the window and just pump up the Scr to the max that racegas will support and go have fun. Or you can optimize it right on the ragged edge and run the best locally available pump-gas. You may not be the Quickest car out there, but hey, you drove it there, and hopefully the engine survives the day, and then you get to drive it home. While all the 12.5ers are on trailers.
>But if you already have money in the old LA, then a custom cam is,IMO the way to go. The lazy stuff that is out there on the shelf, really needs higher compression than the factory teener has to offer.And when it comes to pistons,or longer rods, I would pay double for custom parts to Zero deck it, than to start machining every thing in sight.
 
Last edited:
Ok how about some theory, to see how this works.
Say you just want a sharp teener, that gets great hiway mileage, will only run the track long enough to see just how fast she is, and want the automatic to kick down at 30 mph and light up the tires. How does that sound?
OK we already have several parameters written ,some in stone.
#1 is the automatic. The ratios are 2.45-1.45-1.00. The splits are 1.45/2.45, and 1/1.45, these work out to .59 and .69. On a streeter this doesn't mean much yet.
#2 we need torque at 30 mph, and we want to run 3.23s for the hiway, and we are gonna run 255/60-15s at 27inches tall. Sound familiar? Ok so what are the rpms gonna be at 30mph. The math says 1203 in drive.1750 in second and 2950 in first. All are plus TC slip
Ok We are gonna cruise in second and blow off the tires in first. Sounds like a plan,right.
Ok then We need power at 2950.
Where else do we need power? Well to cruise this baby will be 65=2608 plus slip. So to get great mileage we are gonna need torque at that rpm.
Anything else?Well lets say we put this into a 70Swinger that soaking wet and with driver, weighs in at 3400lbs. Lets say for now, that we will target 250 hp with a little 4bbl and HO manifolds, Sound reasonable? Then 3400/250 gives us a P/W (power to weight ratio) of 13.6. This little number translates to13.6 in the qtr with unlimited suspension, or about 14.1 with the street stuff we are gonna be running. This magic number also translates to about 96 mph. Well we are gonna need power at or slightly earlier than 96mph.But first let's see how those 3.23s are gonna work. 96 mph is 3850 in drive,5590 in second. Both plus slip. Well 5590 @ 5% slip is nearly 5900 going through the traps. This is not the kindof engine we want to build. So how about in drive? 3850 plus slip is about 4050 thru the traps. That sounds better. So that means we need power at 4050 or a little sooner, perhaps as early as 3700.
Now a plan is emerging. We need 250 hp and power at 3700.And torque at 2608, and 2950. Now remember this is for an optimized pkg. Now the question is can it be built.
The answer is yes, And no. The P/W assumes running all three gears, optimized to trap well.
And you are not gonna build a teener to make 250hp at 3700. At least not this one. So, we are gonna have to sacrifice something.
To hit 96 in drive,at a sane for a 250hp teener, 5200, will require a 4.10 rear. Are you gonna sacrifice fuel economy and hiway comfort? Answer no, the 3.23s are staying! Ok now we are getting somewhere, we don't care how fast she is in the qtr.So that rules out the requirement of power at 3700.
So next, lets look at what we have left; the torque requirements at 2608 and 2950. Well the 2608 was for hiway. Let's talk about that one.To cruise this 3400 pound aero-mobile at 65mph,might require about 30 hp. At 2608 this is about 40 ftlbs. Shoot, the teener can do this at idle, so this is a non-issue.
Finally then we need lotsa torque at 30 mph/2950 rpm. Well it's gonna be hard to better the factory cam, which IIRC makes peak torque at 2400rpm, or at least was marketed at that number. Back in the day the old girls were advertised at 340ftlbs@2400, while the 340s were advertised at 340ftlbs at 3200. See, you already have matched a 340s torque at 2400rpm. And pay attention; the 340 took 800 more rpm to match the teener torque. The teener had a 240/112 cam, while the 340 had a 268/114 cam. Are you seeing the pattern? Put the 340 cam into the teener and watch the disappointment on the drivers face, as the torque takes a dump. Even if you pumped the compression to the moon, that little teener will have a hard time recovering from that torque loss. The only thing that will work is to band-aid the teener with a higher stall TC to allow the engine to spin up to a higher rpm, where more torque lives. So this takes us back to cruising the hiway. Earlier we found that the cruise rpm was gonna be 2608 plus slip@ 65mph, or about and up to 2738@5%slip. But more likely is 1 or 2 % slip, so lets call it 2650cruise.Since we are after fuel mileage too, I would consider this to be the maximum stall, for cool running of the tranny-oil.
Ok now we have established the stall at 2600.
And the rpm of peak torque required is 2950, just about perfect.
Now we get to choose a cam, finally.
Waitaminute. This has become a one gear car. What about second at least. Well 65mph in second is a tic under 4000slip included, and you better shut down if you value your license. So if we had peak power say at 3600 to 3700, we would be good to go, right?
Are you seeing what I am seeing?
That's right the factory teener cam hits both of those targets just about bang-on!
But you say I need mo-powah.
Well it won't come from the cam.
Oh dear :( what then?
Well first, lets analyze this; the 3.23s and 2600TC give us the torque at the right rpm, and those same guys give us the power peak at the rpm that we need it to be at. So...... It's the gears that have established the other parameters!
Ohhhhhhhhhhh.
So if we put say 3.91s in there then the rpms would rise 3.91/3.23 = plus 21%. So then the new rpms at 30 and 65 will also be plus 21% or 3571 and 4420. Now you can choose a new cam for 3.91s!
Of course 4.10s are a new cam, and so on. Also this kills hi-way economy/comfort, so another sacrifice has to be made.
But getting back to the 3.23s, which were written in stone. Now the cam is also fixed.So how to get more power? Well the secret to power is and has always been airflow. The more air into the engine, the more fuel you can jam into that extra air and the more power you will get. And it works at any rpm.
Ok but you can't afford super charging or are afraid of it. Fair enough. What are some other alternatives?Well the first option is compression. 8 point OH has got to GOH. My references say that from 8.0 to 11.0 is about 5.2% power and about double in economy. Well plus 10.4% economy translates to an easy 1.5 to 2..0 mpgs, not too shabby. And plus 5.2% on top of 250hp is 13 horsepower. But that number doesn't tell you about the torque increase at stall. But the economy number sure does. If economy at 65mph goes up 10.4%, you can bet it's because the torque has risen, also, by very near to that amount.Earlier we figured out that it takes about 40 ftlbs to cruise at 65. So now perhaps we will get 42 ftlbs at the same throttle setting. No big deal you say. True that, but if those extra 2ftlbs are with the throttle nearly closed, what's happening at peak torque? Well, plus 10% say at a peak torque of 340ftlbs is 34 ftlbs.That's not much you say. Oh yee of little comprehension. It would take about 3.55s to match this in road torque; are you awake now?
But you may say that is impossible!
Fair enough lets run the numbers. Say you have that 3400 ftlb engine now plus 34 ftlbs, and 3.23s and a 2.45 low gear. The math says (340+34) x 3.23x 2.45 = 2960ftlbs into the rear axles. So lets go back to the 340 ftlb engine, and swap to 3.55s. Here is that math; 340 x 2.45 x 3.55 =2957ftlbs. So, we see that the jump from 8/1 to 11/1 is equal to one rear gear upsize in terms of added torque output.
Ok now how about the A999 gear swap. Well I'll tell you another secret, this stuff is all math. The 2.74 low is 2.74/2.45=11.8% torque increase! 11.8% you say? Hyup this is the equivalent of going from 3.23s to 3.23x 1.118=3.61s. You can also multiply the original 340 ftlbs by that same 1.118 to get the equivalent feeling as 40 extra ftlbs. Forty! By now you are seeing that these little numbers mean big increases. By the same token, you can trade them around.
Say you picked those 3.23s to keep the rpm down on the hiway, but they were a compromise for torque to turn tires. Well since we know the teener can make enough torque to cruise 65mph at idle, why are we spinning it to 2700ish. If we bumped the compression, and swapped in the A999, we could reduce the hiway rpm and not lose any road torque at 2400 rpm. How would that work?
Well, earlier we figured out the roadtorque to be 340 x 3.23 x 2.45 in low=2690 ftlbs to the axles,right? ? Lets say we were happy with that but wanted a lower cruise rpm. So we are gonna add the compression first, then divide it by the new low gear to get a new equivalent rear gear.
So then; 2690/{ (340x1.10) x 2.74}= the new gear ratio of 2.625, and these would cruise 65=2140slip included.. And first gear would still make 2690ftlbs to the rear axles. That is a hiway rpm reduction of 2700 less 2140=559rpm. Imagine what that will do to your fuel consumption!
Okay but let's say you'd be willing to trade away some of that economy for a bit more go power. Remember we found out that little numbers mean a lot? And we saw that 34 ftlbs was worth 1 gear change? Well, lets go to the other extreme and leave the cruise at 2700slip included.
Ok so the 3.23s have to stay. And we'll keep the A999, and the compression to, cuz it's worth about 2 mpgs. Now then what kind of road torque increase might we see? 340x 1.10 x2.74x3.23=3310. And we earlier had 2690. This is an increase of 3310/2690= 23% Are you kidding? 23%? Hyup. this is about the same as increasing the size of that teener 23% or to 391 cubes, This is rather simplistic, but you get the idea. We are still on the stock cam,iron log manifolds and a 2bbl, cuz that is how the factory rated them in up to 1972, when the 340 ftlb number was published. Plus 23% is pure math. It doesn't care how many actual ftlbs your engine is making, Just add 23% to it.
So what have we learned? Fun with math! You can take a stock slow-poke teener, dress it up with compression and a lower gear ratio, and go out and have a blast. And if you do it right, you can get better fuel mileage too.
Oh, we didn't go there did we? Well, what was I thinking? There is no reason to go from one extreme to the other.
Lets try it with 2.94s. The rpm at 65 is 2400, and first gear road torque could be 3013ftlbs, an increase of 3013/2690=12% , making your teener feel like a 356 cuber.
Or with 2.76s. 65=2250. And the roadtorque to the axles is 2828; an increase of 2828/2690=5.1%, making your teener feel like a 334cuber.
A one up-size in cams might equal 4% or 14ftlbs. making your teener feel like a 331.
Now what are we spending to get all this mythical increase? It ain't cheap. 11/1 compression is pistons for sure, and total chamber volumes down to 65cc; totally doable. Then there is the A999. And gaskets,Badaboom! Plus gears if you want to strike a balance. The fuel mileage savings will take years to pay for this, so forget that. But say you went with the 2.94s, and between the 300rpm cruise reduction and the 10 % increase in economy, your mpgs might climb from what?, 18 to 22. Because you find the new cruise rpm of 2400 so much more comfortable, you are eager to drive it everywhere, all the time. Suddenly your annual mileage is climbing to 12000 miles. At 18 mpgs this would cost you 667 gallons. At 22mpg,just 545 gallons. Simple math I know but it illustrates the point,right? So what's a gallon of gas cost you? say 4 bucks. That would be an annual savings of 4 x (667 less 545) =$448 bucks. Ima thinking you can do a lot with $448. But let's say a gallon costs just 3.50 today. That's still an annual savings of $427. But what if it goes to $5 a gallon? The savings then would be $610.
So, let's recap;
We left the engine completely alone except for bumping the compression. We installed an A999, and maybe swapped in some 2.94s. We are gonna expect 10% more torque, everywhere cuz that is what compression does. And we are gonna expect 2% more torque multiplication from the gear swapping, and the fuel economy might rise 22%; Hey, it's just math. And you can expect a performance increase similar to adding 38 cubic inches, IN FIRST GEAR, which with proper valve springs and the 2.94s might rev to 5400, and take you to 54mph. Kicking the tranny down at 30mph will get you about 3150rpm slip included.
And we never put a steengkeeng cam in in it yet.
Now I just gotta say this to protect my AZZ;
your results may vary
 
Last edited:
Ok how about a theoretical, to see how this works.
Say you just want a sharp teener, that gets great hiway mileage, will only run the track long enough to see just how fast she is, and want the automatic to kick down at 30 mph and light up the tires. How does that sound?
OK we already have several parameters written ,some in stone.
#1 is the automatic. The ratios are 2.45-1.45-1.00. The splits are 1.45/2.45, and 1/1.45, these work out to .59 and .69.
#2 we need torque at 30 mph, and we want to run 3.23s for the hiway, and we are gonna run 255/60-15s at 27inches tall. Sound familiar? Ok so what are the rpms gonna be at 30mph. The math says 1203 in drive.1750 in second and 2950 in first. All are plus TC slip
Ok We are gonna cruise in second and blow off the tires in first. Sounds like a plan,right.
Ok then We need power at 2950. Where else do we need power? Well to cruise this baby will be 65=2608 plus slip. So to get great mileage we are gonna need torque at that rpm.Anything else?Well lets say we put this into a 70Swinger that soaking wet and with driver, weighs in at 3400lbs. Lets say for now, that we will target 250 hp with a little 4bbl and HO manifolds, Sound reasonable? Then 3400/250 gives us a P/W (power to weight ratio) of 13.6. This little number translates to13.6 in the qtr with unlimited suspension, or about 14.1 with the street stuff we are gonna be running. This magiv number also translates to about 96 mph. Well weare gonna need power at or slightly earlier than 96mph.But first let's see how those 3.23s are gonna work. 96 mph is 3850 in drive,5590 in second. Both plus slip. Well 5590 @ 5% slip is nearly 5900 going through the traps. This is not the kindof engine we want to build. So how about in drive? 3850 plus slip is about 4050 thru the traps. That sounds better. So that means we need power at 4050 or a little sooner, perhaps as early as 3700.
Now a plan is emerging. We need 250 hp and power at 3700.And torque at 2608, and 2950. Now remember this is for an optimized pkg. Now the question is can it be built.
The answer is yes, And no. The P/W assumes running all three gears, optimized to trap well.
And you are not gonna build a teener to make 250hp at 3700. At least not this one. So, we are gonna have to sacrifice something.
To hit 96 in drive,at a sane for a 250hp teener, 5200, will require a 4.10 rear. are you gonna sacrifice fuel economy and hiway comfort? answer no, the 3.23s are it! Ok now we are getting somewhere, we don't care how fast she is in the qtr.So that rules out the requirement of power at 3700.
So next, lets liik at what we have left; the torque requirements at 2608 and 2950. Well the 2608 was for hiway. Let's talk about that one.To cruise this 3400 pound aero-mobile at 65mph,might require about 30 hp. At 2608 this is about 40 ftlbs. Shoot the teener can do this at idle, so this is a non-issue.
Finally then we need lotsa torque at 30 mph/2950 rpm. Well it's gonna be hard to better the factory cam, which IIRC makes peak torque at 2400rpm, or at least was marketed at that number. Back in the day the old girls were advertised at 340ftlbs@2400, while the 340s were advertised at 340ftlbs at 3200. See, you already have matched a 340s torque at 2400rpm. And pay attention; the 340 took 800 mor rpm to match the teener torque. The teener had a 240/112 cam, while the 340 had a 268/114 cam. Are you seeing the pattern? Put the 340 cam into the teener and watch the disappointment on the drivers face, as the torque takes a dump. Even if you pumped the compression to the moon, that little teener will have a hard time recovering from that torque loss. The only thing that will work is to band-aid the teener with a higher stall TC to allow the engine to spin up to a higher rpm, where more torque lives. So this takes us back to cruising the hiway. Earlier we found that the cruise rpm was gonna be 2608 plus slip@ 65mph, or about and up to 2738@5%slip. But more likely is 1 or 2 % slip, so lets call it 2650.Since we are after fuel mileage too, I would consider this to be the maximum stall, for cool running the tranny-oil.
Ok now we have established the stall at 2600.
And the rpm of peak torque is 2950, just about perfect.
Now we get to choose a cam, finally.
To be continued
thanks for all your great insight on this thread keep it coming our ears are open
 
There's a heck of a science behind this all. I grew up in the 70's and when somebody would come in to the speed shop and they didn't have any idea what they needed we just sold them a cam for what they were going to do with the car. There weren't too many choices back then. TRW had a couple TP performance cams, Crane had the Fireball which was a $50 piece and like most cams of that era, had duration but not much lift. Nice enough street cam and easy on valve train. The bigger Cranes were reserved for the racers only. Comp Cams was just becoming popular so there was a learning curve there. I am listening intently. It's good to be able to figure out ahead of time what you need instead of just shooting from the hip. tmm
 
A lot of info....really way too much... What exactly are you working with ? Year/make/model ? Original engine? any mods done ? mileage on heads/valve springs ? The more that we know about what we are working with, the more specific the recommendations can be made. Otherwise you are getting way too much info. Walk before you run. Little by little so you can understand what is happening. Do a lot of reading on something close to your combo. Really determine what you are expecting with each step and your end goal. Grocery getter. Weekend toy. Hiway cruiser ? Research just like you would before buying an HD TV, stereo or anything else that you would shop for. Educate yourself.
 
The OP needs a drink, and you guys have a fire hose shoved down his throat on full blow. You're killing him with details, and no disrespect to the OP, he's questioning the order to do the change.

There is no reason to pull the intake twice unless you have no idea. If that's the case, don't be embarrassed or ashamed. Find someone who KNOWS what they are doing and get their help.

As to all that math and ****...forget it.

The OP needs to call several of the cam companies I have listed and let THEM pick his cam. He will spend less time, less money, incur much less frustration and have a better ride when he is done then trying to do the math. Screw the math. He can learn that **** when he is out using his rig, instead of spending time on the interweb trying to learn something he may never use again.


And I want to be clear...I agree 100% with AJ's math. But for someone like the OP it's a bunch to chew in one or two bites.

How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. Some one grab the OP a fork and let's help him without shoving dumbo down his dinner hole.
 
-
Back
Top