Painless wire harness install (MORE PROGRESS)

[younggun2.0]

thanks mad dart. the reason i am wanting to do it that way is because i am mounting the starter relay inside the car. this way all i have going thru the fire wall is the start signal wire off the starter relay.

 

[67Dart273]

Why do you have a separate 8 ga running from the trunk to under the dash?

Bear in mind that the reason the starter relay was originally under the hood was to help keep the starter relay to solenoid wire somewhat short, and normally it should be no12/ no10

and.............The starter relay was originally intended to just be a handy junction point, that is, the battery stud.

I don't like to get too much junk on the starter post. There's a lot of vibration down there (engine movement) and the more cables on it, the more force there is trying to loosen the nut.

I would find a good big insulated junction bolt to mimic the original starter relay stud. I would run ONE cable from the battery to that stud, mounted somewhere on the firewall near the starter.

Run a wire from the stud to the starter

Run a wire from the stud to the alternator

Run a wire from the stud (no8 or so) to the interior junction

What do you have for a battery disconnect, anything? Or are you not planning on any racing.

 

[varlo]

you sir have done an outstanding job. I am planning on going the same route. Thanks for the pics and progress updates I will be watching.

 

[younggun2.0]

Why do you have a separate 8 ga running from the trunk to under the dash?

Bear in mind that the reason the starter relay was originally under the hood was to help keep the starter relay to solenoid wire somewhat short, and normally it should be no12/ no10

and.............The starter relay was originally intended to just be a handy junction point, that is, the battery stud.

I don't like to get too much junk on the starter post. There's a lot of vibration down there (engine movement) and the more cables on it, the more force there is trying to loosen the nut.

I would find a good big insulated junction bolt to mimic the original starter relay stud. I would run ONE cable from the battery to that stud, mounted somewhere on the firewall near the starter.

Run a wire from the stud to the starter

Run a wire from the stud to the alternator

Run a wire from the stud (no8 or so) to the interior junction

What do you have for a battery disconnect, anything? Or are you not planning on any racing.

Here is what i have for parts and my plans, these are all plans and have not been installed yet.

I have a yellow top ultima battery with top and front posts mounted in a box in the trunk. I am running the 1/0 power to the B+ lug on the starter.

I then plan to run two separate 6-8ga.wires from the front mounted posts on the battery to a power and ground junction box (black boxes mounted on the second panel i made) up under the dash of the car. this way i can have direct power and ground for my msd ignition and fuse panel without having to run the power supply wires thru the fire wall and to the starter relay post.

with the junction box on the inside passenger kick panel my wire from the starter relay to the starter will be shorter than if the relay was in the stock location.

doing things this way i will only have 2 wires on the starter post. the power in from the battery to starter and the charge wire coming off the alternator to the starter post.

does the post on the starter relay even do anything besides provide a power junction point? is that where the signal wire gets its power?

I plan to run a power cut off switch in the rear bumper area. this is where i would connect both power wires going to the front of the car. this would kill the power to the fuse block and the ignition system.

I am open to all input. I have never done this so i am all ears. just trying to make this as clean as possible with out setting the car on fire.

I thank you all for letting me bounce my idea's off of you.

 

[younggun2.0]

you sir have done an outstanding job. I am planning on going the same route. Thanks for the pics and progress updates I will be watching.

thanks man! i appreciate the kind words. the car has been apart for 10yrs now and im getting sooooooo close to having it done. i cant wait to have power again.

 

[67Dart273]

Ok your last description clarifies and "sounds better."

I don't think you need the no8 ground, though, just use the body.

You need a good at least no 10 from a battery source to the starter relay stud, that is one of the contacts, so when the relay is "made" the contacts close and send that power down to the solenoid.

The coil or "signal" as you call it for the starter relay is the two push on terminals. Makes no difference which is which

I lost track if you have a stick/ stick with clutch safety switch, or automatic

If you have a clutch safety switch or auto, either of the push on terminals of the relay must go to the center terminal of the NSS, providing a ground in park or neutral, or when the clutch is depressed.

If you have a stick with no clutch safety, just permanently ground either of the starter relay terminals

The remaining one of course goes to the start terminal of the IGN switch, originally yellow off the switch.

What are you using for an ignition switch, and do you understand how to handle the IGN1 / IGN2 switch circuits, that is, the ballast bypass?

Page 17 of your manual shows a diode for that purpose, but if you are still using a Mopar switch, there is no reason to do that.

 

[younggun2.0]

Ok your last description clarifies and "sounds better."

I don't think you need the no8 ground, though, just use the body.

You need a good at least no 10 from a battery source to the starter relay stud, that is one of the contacts, so when the relay is "made" the contacts close and send that power down to the solenoid.

The coil or "signal" as you call it for the starter relay is the two push on terminals. Makes no difference which is which

I lost track if you have a stick/ stick with clutch safety switch, or automatic

If you have a clutch safety switch or auto, either of the push on terminals of the relay must go to the center terminal of the NSS, providing a ground in park or neutral, or when the clutch is depressed.

If you have a stick with no clutch safety, just permanently ground either of the starter relay terminals

The remaining one of course goes to the start terminal of the IGN switch, originally yellow off the switch.

What are you using for an ignition switch, and do you understand how to handle the IGN1 / IGN2 switch circuits, that is, the ballast bypass?

Page 17 of your manual shows a diode for that purpose, but if you are still using a Mopar switch, there is no reason to do that.

I am using my OEM ignition switch in the dash. I managed to get the original connectors out of the plastic bulk head and am going to be re-using it with the new wire harness.

as for the ign1 and ign2 i am a bit lost. I am running a MSD ignition and that will delete the ballast.

my msd box has the following wires:

Heavy Red = to + battery
Heavey Black = to - battery
red = ignition hot
white= not used
orange = + coil
black = - coil
magnetic pick up = pre wired pig tail on MSD distributor
gray = tach output

to me it seems that all i need is an ignition keyed hot from my switch and im good? or do i have to splice the ign 1 and 2 together off the switch and then hook it to my msd red wire?

I am running a 727 auto trans. for the NSS i just run the wire from the NSS post on relay to the middle prong on my switch on the trans right? is that all it is?

 

[67Dart273]

With the factory switch, you connect the IGN1 and IGN2 together. Here's how they originally worked:

Mopar is the only US manufacturer that used this system, Ferd, GM, etc, all used an "I" contact on the relay/ solenoid to bypass the ballast for starting.

The reason you must interconnect them with no ballast is that MOST (all?) Mopar switches, the IGN1 (run) contact goes COLD during "start." This means that without IGN2 effective, it would never start, except by accident, sometimes letting off the starter it would catch.

I don't think Painless addresses this, which is irritating. As I said, they are showing a diode between the "start" wire and the ignition, which does work, although you have the additional drop of the diode junction.

Right on the NSS. Either of the "push on" relay terminals goes to the center of the NSS. The remaining relay "push on" terminal goes to the start contact of the IGN switch.

How big is your alternator, how big is the charging wire, and how is it routed?

 

[Mad Dart]

I like how you are mounting everything in the car and keeping the engine compartment super clean. I will be doing mine like that also. You can mount the starter relay right above the gas pedal or in that area and probably get away with 1 foot of wire to hit the starter which is alot closer than stock. Even mounting it on the passenger side kick panel like you plan should not be a problem, just make sure the wire you use on that connection is Mucho Grande/more than the stock wire was for the additional length and you will be fine.

 

[younggun2.0]

With the factory switch, you connect the IGN1 and IGN2 together. Here's how they originally worked:

Mopar is the only US manufacturer that used this system, Ferd, GM, etc, all used an "I" contact on the relay/ solenoid to bypass the ballast for starting.

The reason you must interconnect them with no ballast is that MOST (all?) Mopar switches, the IGN1 (run) contact goes COLD during "start." This means that without IGN2 effective, it would never start, except by accident, sometimes letting off the starter it would catch.

I don't think Painless addresses this, which is irritating. As I said, they are showing a diode between the "start" wire and the ignition, which does work, although you have the additional drop of the diode junction.

Right on the NSS. Either of the "push on" relay terminals goes to the center of the NSS. The remaining relay "push on" terminal goes to the start contact of the IGN switch.

How big is your alternator, how big is the charging wire, and how is it routed?

alt. is what ever the factory would have put on the car. i just have a stock replacement. it was enough when i had the car going before and i had a HUGE stereo in the car at that time. i was planning on running the charging wire from the alternator lug to the starter lug because this is where the battery + wire was going. i planned on using a 8ga wire.

 

[younggun2.0]

tonight i got the new carbon cover plate done for the driver side fuse box mount.

then i finished the passenger side mount and got it up in the car. now that they are all fab'd up i can take em back out and have the bases powder coated. im really happy with the way the passenger side box lines up with the kick panel perfectly. they both tuck up nice and high behind the dash board. now that all the mounting is done i can spend the weekend running wires. here are some pictures.

 

[younggun2.0]

With the factory switch, you connect the IGN1 and IGN2 together. Here's how they originally worked:

Mopar is the only US manufacturer that used this system, Ferd, GM, etc, all used an "I" contact on the relay/ solenoid to bypass the ballast for starting.

The reason you must interconnect them with no ballast is that MOST (all?) Mopar switches, the IGN1 (run) contact goes COLD during "start." This means that without IGN2 effective, it would never start, except by accident, sometimes letting off the starter it would catch.

I don't think Painless addresses this, which is irritating. As I said, they are showing a diode between the "start" wire and the ignition, which does work, although you have the additional drop of the diode junction.

Right on the NSS. Either of the "push on" relay terminals goes to the center of the NSS. The remaining relay "push on" terminal goes to the start contact of the IGN switch.


How big is your alternator, how big is the charging wire, and how is it routed?

when i connect the ign 1 and ign 2 wire together coming out of my ignition switch, they go to the small red wire on my msd box? the small red wire on the msd box if for the keyed hot wire.

 

[67Dart273]

Yes, and this is your only "switched ignition" wire. So it must also branch off to the gauges power, the regulator "I" terminal (blue), and one of the field connections on the regulator, and anything else that you want on only with ignition. On mine, I used that wire to fire a relay, and then the loads run off the relay. Not necessary unless you have quite a bit of load. The MSD small red is a very small load, IE it switches the MSD box and uses either a mechanical relay or solid state switch.

It is EXTREMELY important that the regulator ground and the regulator "IGN" (blue) see exact battery voltage, or the charge voltage will be added to the voltage offset.

That is, if say, the ground at the regulator is .2V above battery, and the regulator IGN terminal sees a .2V drop from the battery positive, that total of .4V will be added to whatever the regulator setpoint is.

 

[younggun2.0]

Yes, and this is your only "switched ignition" wire. So it must also branch off to the gauges power, the regulator "I" terminal (blue), and one of the field connections on the regulator, and anything else that you want on only with ignition. On mine, I used that wire to fire a relay, and then the loads run off the relay. Not necessary unless you have quite a bit of load. The MSD small red is a very small load, IE it switches the MSD box and uses either a mechanical relay or solid state switch.

It is EXTREMELY important that the regulator ground and the regulator "IGN" (blue) see exact battery voltage, or the charge voltage will be added to the voltage offset.

That is, if say, the ground at the regulator is .2V above battery, and the regulator IGN terminal sees a .2V drop from the battery positive, that total of .4V will be added to whatever the regulator setpoint is.

this has me a bit confused. i was under the impression that the voltage regulator was meant to meter the output voltage of the alternator in order to not create too much voltage going back? the wiring instructions from painless show me running the white wire (#914 Alternator Exciter) to the field terminal on the distributor and then running a wire from that same field terminal and thru the voltage regulator and then to the other field terminal on the alternator. I thought that the regulator was isolated to the alternator field terminals?

i was planning on having a ground wire run from the voltage regulator body to the negative battery terminal junction box. would that be sufficient? would you also recommend that i run a larger than normal wire from the alternator to the regulator in order to limit the resistance?

sorry for all the questions and lengthily responses but you have so much information to share and i have learned alot from chatting with you.

 

[67Dart273]

This is why I don't like Painless's documentation, "no diagram." Wire 914 SHOULD be same as "switched ignition" IE ignition run or IGN1 You should check that when you can power it up.

The way the factory is wired, and they way this should be wired, is both the alternator field (blue) and the regulator IGN terminal are connected to the (factory) IGN1 "run" buss.

If you read some of my threads, again, referring to factory, a problem guys have is voltage drop in the harness supplying the regulator

The original path is battery -- fuse link -- bulkhead connector -- ammeter -- to in harness splice -- to ign switch connector -- through switch -- back out switch connector (dark blue) -- back out bulkhead -- and to

ignition run side of ballast

alternator field on 70/ later

regulator "IGN" terminal

electric choke if used

distributor solenoid or other smog stuff on some cars

So on original cars, the possibilities for a volt drop problem is anywhere along that described path

Any drop in that line causes overcharging, as the regulator needs to SENSE battery voltage, NOT alternator voltage.

(This is one reason I dislike "one wire" integral alternators -- unless the charging wire is OVERsized, whenever the battery is low and loads high (as in winter truck, lights, heater(s), etc,) then the drop across the charging wire means that the integral regulator IS actually sensing alternator output INSTEAD of the battery, so system voltage will sag until either the battery "comes up" some or else some load is removed.

In other words, the older external sense systems like Mopar are far superior when working right.

Hope my rambling is not confusing. The point is that the blue regulator wire (and it's ground) must see very close to battery voltage to properly regulate.

Which leads to.................

Once you get this wired up close enough to power up some things you should CHECK the voltage drop to the regulator

To do that, take a scrap piece of wire long enough to reach back to the battery, clip it to the positive battery connection, and bring up front and clip to one probe of your meter.

Take the remaining meter probe and hook as close as you can to the regulator IGN terminal. DO NOT unplug the regulator connector in order to do this -- you need to have the load of the field current on the system, IE you need the alternator field connections wired up.

What you are directly measuring here with this hookup is the voltage drop all the way from the battery, through your new harness connections, through the ignition switch, and up to the regulator

You are hoping for a low reading, the lower the better. Zero would be perfect. If you measure more than .2V I would be looking for "where" the drop is. Most likely suspect, with your new parts, would be the ignition switch connector or the switch itself.

If it is not too late, I would take the time to tear into the new fuse panel, make a drawing of the internal layout of the buss connections if visible, and draw out what hooks to what

If you cannot see into the back of the panel (Mine was open) I would sit down with an ohmeter or continuity tester and find out what wires connect to what buss.

(The Painless chart, which shows the "origin" of the wire as being the "fuse panel" is really useless, because it does not actually detail the connection)

 

[younggun2.0]

this is quickly getting more difficult. i was just going to wire up the voltage regulator according to the directions that painless gave me. I have to sit down and read you post again to wrap my head around it.

 

[67Dart273]

LOL

The short answer is, you indeed "should" be able to wire the alternator/ regulator as they detail. But do make absolutely sure that the regulator is seeing "same as battery" voltage with the key in "run."

And once again, this would be very simple if Painless would simply supply a diagram detailing the fuse panel connections.

 

[younggun2.0]

LOL

The short answer is, you indeed "should" be able to wire the alternator/ regulator as they detail. But do make absolutely sure that the regulator is seeing "same as battery" voltage with the key in "run."

And once again, this would be very simple if Painless would simply supply a diagram detailing the fuse panel connections.

ok thanks for making it simple for me to understand. lol would running a heavier gauge wire to and from alt. to regulator help with keeping the voltage equal?

 

[dodge71demon]

i really enjoy fabricating stuff. i am trying to keep the engine bay pretty much wire free. i like the look of a clean clutter free engine bay. hopefully this all works how i have it planned in my head.

Me too I used the EZ Wiring Harness----------Good Luck

 

[younggun2.0]

Me too I used the EZ Wiring Harness----------Good Luck

looks killer. where did you mount your relay and regulator? where do your wires come thru the firewall?

 

[67Dart273]

ok thanks for making it simple for me to understand. lol would running a heavier gauge wire to and from alt. to regulator help with keeping the voltage equal?

The painless wire gauge should be enough. The main voltage drop problem is not wire size, but connections, such as the (old) bulkhead, the connector at the IGN switch, and in the switch itself.

 

[joeboy]

Young gun,

lookin good. I actually built almost a identical panel for my passenger kick panel for the same stuff to clean up the bay just like you.

A few things I was gonna do:

for the kill switch and battery cables I was gonna get a 2 post switch and run the Batt+ to one side, and then off the other to my "power post" just as a junction for the fuse panel and whatever... then continue the batt cable from the post to the starter so that I only have 1 cable into the engine bay, not the fuse and starter relay wires as well.

For the ALT + I was gonna run it back all the way to the Battery side of the kill switch, (pre switch) so that when the switch is flipped it does not let the ALT to continue to provide power to the engine/fusebox. (necessary for tech inspection)

The Batt - I was gonna run straight to the block, and then a jumper back to the frame and to a ground post. (I am running EFI, so I wanna make sore the block has a really clean ground)

** I am not a guru at this by any means, so chime in if there something I missed**


JOE

 

[dodge71demon]

looks killer. where did you mount your relay and regulator? where do your wires come thru the firewall?

As you can tell I also removed the heater so all electronics are under the
dash where the heater box was.Brought the wire thru as low as I could just above the bell housing,

 

[younggun2.0]

Young gun,

lookin good. I actually built almost a identical panel for my passenger kick panel for the same stuff to clean up the bay just like you.

A few things I was gonna do:

for the kill switch and battery cables I was gonna get a 2 post switch and run the Batt+ to one side, and then off the other to my "power post" just as a junction for the fuse panel and whatever... then continue the batt cable from the post to the starter so that I only have 1 cable into the engine bay, not the fuse and starter relay wires as well.

For the ALT + I was gonna run it back all the way to the Battery side of the kill switch, (pre switch) so that when the switch is flipped it does not let the ALT to continue to provide power to the engine/fusebox. (necessary for tech inspection)

The Batt - I was gonna run straight to the block, and then a jumper back to the frame and to a ground post. (I am running EFI, so I wanna make sore the block has a really clean ground)

** I am not a guru at this by any means, so chime in if there something I missed**


JOE

dont know where i read it but i read that you want to keep your battery negative terminal ground short as possible. I saw on a ratrod forum board where a guy made a small 2"x2" square out of 1/8" steel plate. he welded a chunk of 3/4" round bar to that and drilled and tapped the inside for a 3/8" bolt. he welded the plate/post to the frame rail just below the batter box. this is what i plan to do. I think we have an advantage with grounding as our cars are unibody and not framed cars.

 

[younggun2.0]

As you can tell I also removed the heater so all electronics are under the
dash where the heater box was.Brought the wire thru as low as I could just above the bell housing,

you must have run your front light harness under the inner fender as well?