PLEASE help - 72 Duster - "Mystery Wires"

[Old Country]

I am hoping the guru's of this terrific site will help me, please.
Car I'm working with: 1972 Duster, 340 4bbl 4-spd H-code car.
The previous owner installed an MSD 6AL, and left all un-nessecary stock wiring just hanging. This car has been thru a few hands, and has seen 3 different engines. WhenI got it, I wanted/needed to inspect, clean-up all the wiring and also clean-out un-needed wiring (very carefully, and cleanly). Unfoutunately 'project creep' very quickly got WAY out of control on this one. I had intented to conclude the project within a month, so I marked only a few wires.... and that was 15 months ago!! I'm now (finally) putting this puzzle back together, and it's going quite well. That said, EXCEPT for the wires pictured below. These MUST have gone to something (I am assuming), otherwise I wouldn't have installed new terminals.... but I can see nothing they belong to. I've wire diagrams for a 1970 Valient (which I'm told is the same as a Duster), but some things are not matching at all... plus mine is 72 and not a 70. Due to this I can't fully trust this wire diagram (yes I should pony-up for one, but me-B-po, ha..).

I beg your indulgence and ask that you study the 4 pics below. They show my mystery '3 wires' (red, brown & green) on a common terminal. I do NOT know what these are for...HELP!
1) The green wire is soldered to a blue wire which connects to the alternator (see pics). At the solder-joint there are 2 other wires: a darkish-green wire which ends in the Alt Regulator plug, and a darkblue w/white stripe wire ending at terminal 'N' of the center firewall connection plug (guessing for the Alt guage..?).

2) The Brown wire, according to the 1970 Valient wire schem., goes to terminal 'Q' of the center firewall connection plug. It is ID'd as wire J3-14BR and 'apparently' goes to the steering column harness blade plug, connected to function: 'Ignition-2" .... What the heck is Ign 2..? It's dubious that it's that way on my Duster... but I do not know.

3) The red wire...geez..?..I honestly have no idea what the short red wire is for, but it appears to be a power wire for something, if the blue one from the alt is a hot wire.

Due the the relitively short length of these wires, they can't reach the Starter Relay,..which is basically the only thing in the area that these might connect to. The Ballast wiring is in a different harness and is fine.... and the coil connects to the MSD...so I'm stumped. If anyone who has the proper wire diagram for a 72 Duster or knows what I need to know, pleae PLEASE share that wisdom. I'm angry enough at myself for not marking every wire, but live & learn... even at 52, ha..:sad11:

I thank you very kindly and will check for / hoping for...responses in a couple days...

 

[clhyer]

Your firewall sure looks nice!
I cannot help you directly with the wires, my '72 had just about every wire cut, spliced into, torn apart, etc.
Here is a link, though, for a '72 FSM. Perhaps your answer will be found in that. Good luck with it.
C
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=132309&highlight=1972

 

[Mr Hemi]

looks like the ammeter wiring to me

 

[daredevil]

Ign 2 is the wire that feeds the coil. ign 1 feed it when the key is turned all the way to start and when released ign 2 kicks in. These feed the trigger wire for the msd box. Blue I believe is the hot alt field wire and the red I believe is the power to the msd box. mymopar.com has wiring schematics.

 

[67Dart273]

Ign 2 is the wire that feeds the coil. ign 1 feed it when the key is turned all the way to start and when released ign 2 kicks in. These feed the trigger wire for the msd box. Blue I believe is the hot alt field wire and the red I believe is the power to the msd box. mymopar.com has wiring schematics.

Other way around

IGN1 is normally dark blue and is "ignition run." This feeds the ignition, the regulator "ign" terminal, the alternator field, probably the choke heater if used. It may feed the distributor solenoid on those equipped, not sure

IGN 2 is normally brown and is the one of which you speak. It goes to coil positive and BYPASSES the coil resistor as well as providing startup voltage when the key is in "crank" or "start."

It is important to realize that IGN2 is a different wire and a different contact than the "start" (yellow) which fires the start relay. If you were to wire these together (turn them into one wire) The ignition would "backfeed" back into the start relay during run, on those cars with a grounded relay, or when an auto car is in park or neutral.

Many of what you have pictured is added. Not knowing what they had rigged up, hard to say. Just go by what you "know" back at the bulkhead.

You obviously have that figured out and have a good diagram.


Also, that bulkhead connector looks damaged. You might want to read the Mad electrical article on the pitfalls of bulkhead connectors, and consider doing the "bypass." Yeah, I know. No ammeter. I like 'em too. You CAN just drill out the bulkhead and run larger wiring straight through the connector, then hook back up under the dash.

http://www.madelectrical.com/electrical-tech.shtml

This article in particular

http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/amp-gauges.shtml

 

[69Post]

Did you take out the MSD? Looks like a cobbled MSD wiring attempt. Proper wiring is: From the ballast 2 brown (1 from coil+, 1 to cavity O), 2 blue (1 from cavity N and alternator field, and 1 the regulator I} and 1 wire to the red on the MSD are all connected to each other, no ballast.
John

 

[Old Country]

I just thought I'd take a peek and lookie there!

Thanks much for the responses, tips and web links. Thx to your input and the wire schem's in mymopar, I see now what's going on here.

I've an electric fuel and I marked the +wire ("to RED wire from MSD")... when it's actually to the short red wire in that bundle of 3...all of them get connected to the MSD via that common connector. I recall there were wires dangling all over and I cleaned'm up and cut-to-length...DOH! The red mystery wire dangles out of the connector and connects to the pump wire. The Brown wire 'is' to Ign 2, and the green wire brings + juice to the whole bundle via being soldered to the alt wire... That must be it, yea it's gotta be... cuz if it's not...:sad11: what the heck then.?

Lord what a gaggle, but that's it then. Whew!

And YES; I'm quite unhappy with the bulkhead connectors, as they're pretty trashed...but that'll have to wait until next year's honey-do. OH and thx for the compliment on the paint. It's old school style...ie: grey splatter paint with black & white specks... pretty cool look'n.
See before & after pics below

Thank you again. A-Bodies Only (FABO) does it again. Many thanks my friends.:thumrigh:

 

[Johnny Mac]

the above guys are more educated than 1 on the factory colors of wiring and such. but one thing to keep in mind is that once u wire in a box like that MSD. the only thing the factory harness does is charge the battery, and start the car. your wires to the coil, tach, dist. are all right to the box. so some of those wires may be plain and simply not used. i threw my balast r in the trash along with the factory ignition box plug. but it looks like u do have alot of someone elses backyard splicing to sort through. good luck!

 

[Old Country]

I appreciate all inputs. I had a conversation today with member '69post' and learned a LOT about wiring on this car. Yea indeed I've more exploring to do, but it appears that the MSD install is what has created 99% of my confusion. It appears (you're correct) that a few relics of the factory wiring is why things don't look quite right.

I'll know what's what and what works or doesn't once the car is back together and I can apply power.

Many thanks to all.:thumblef:

 

[daredevil]

Other way around

IGN1 is normally dark blue and is "ignition run." This feeds the ignition, the regulator "ign" terminal, the alternator field, probably the choke heater if used. It may feed the distributor solenoid on those equipped, not sure

IGN 2 is normally brown and is the one of which you speak. It goes to coil positive and BYPASSES the coil resistor as well as providing startup voltage when the key is in "crank" or "start."

It is important to realize that IGN2 is a different wire and a different contact than the "start" (yellow) which fires the start relay. If you were to wire these together (turn them into one wire) The ignition would "backfeed" back into the start relay during run, on those cars with a grounded relay, or when an auto car is in park or neutral.

Many of what you have pictured is added. Not knowing what they had rigged up, hard to say. Just go by what you "know" back at the bulkhead.

You obviously have that figured out and have a good diagram.


Also, that bulkhead connector looks damaged. You might want to read the Mad electrical article on the pitfalls of bulkhead connectors, and consider doing the "bypass." Yeah, I know. No ammeter. I like 'em too. You CAN just drill out the bulkhead and run larger wiring straight through the connector, then hook back up under the dash.

http://www.madelectrical.com/electrical-tech.shtml

This article in particular

http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/amp-gauges.shtml

damn dyslexia. apologys to the original poster for the bad info. I dont understand how power can backfeed though since the switck isnt in the position to let the current flow thru it. Seems if it did your starter would stay engaged.

 

[GMachineDartGT]

Looks like a botched Mallory ignition attempt judging by the colors.

 

[67Dart273]

damn dyslexia. apologys to the original poster for the bad info. I dont understand how power can backfeed though since the switck isnt in the position to let the current flow thru it. Seems if it did your starter would stay engaged.

What I was poking at here is sometimes folks try to rewire (or use aftermarket harnesses) that do not contain the original "start" AND ign2 circuits.

What happens if you try this:

After you start the car, the key is in run, feeding power to the ignition to the "top" of the ballast resistor, juice goes through the resistor, to the coil, where it's now dropped way down at the coil positive.

BUT if you are tryin' to use the IGN2 and START as the same wire, NOW you have the coil + connected to the starter relay!!! The dropped voltage from the resistor--feeding the coil--is going right to the start relay. IF the car is in neutral/ park, the start relay is now putting a load on the ballast. There may / may not be enough power there to pull in the relay.

If it does -- the starter will run.

One of the guys explained an incredible backfeed here awhile back---

No key------

you turn on either left or right turn signal, the 4 way flasher, and step on the brake pedal and hold it.

NOW you can run the wipers, radio, any other accessory that needs the key in run or accessory

'S all done with unintentional backfeeds

 

[Old Country]

All of you input is really intreguing, and makes sense, based on what I've shared. I had a good conversation with a fellow FABO yesterday and together we figured it out.... we think.

The previous owner had an MSD-6AL installed (as I said), and I'm not removing it. This install removed the ballast (gone), and the BROWN wire that use to go to the ballast (IGN 2) is the Brown wire in this cluster of 3 in question... which is exactly what the MSD instruction say to do. They also removed the Clutch safety switch, thus the Relay 'will' engage the starter even if in gear (4 spd)... thus nothing is connected to the two blade terminals on the Relay. There is other weirdness as well... but it all makes sense once one figures out what the install shop was trying to do.

BUT the fat lady won't sing until the car is back together, which will be in about 3 weeks or so. I just installed the leaf springs a few hours ago. I'm comfortable, knowing this: The car started and drove just fine with this wiring, plus all the old factory stuff dangling in there, so it should work ... time will tell. The under-dash area is a horrible rats-nest of wires... but the interior is on next years budget. Moma says I need to sell off some of my gun collection to pay for further 'Duster stuff', so that's now added to the equation...ha, ... it's always something.

Anyways - Thx again, and let's keep these old A-Bodies roll'n !!:cheers:

 

[67Dart273]

thus nothing is connected to the two blade terminals on the Relay.

That is not right. The purpose of the starter relay is to NOT ONLY act as part of the neutral safety (auto) or clutch safety circuit, but to also reduce load on the ignition switch circuit when operating the starter solenoid, which draws a fair amount of current.

You need to identify the original start signal from the ignition switch (yellow or some combo of) and wire it to one push on at the start relay, then permanently ground the other terminal.

Then the big square terminal on the relay goes down to the S terminal on the solenoid.

This is exactly what the stick cars "did" before the clutch safety switch came along.

 

[Old Country]

Weeeell... dang it anyway...
Did I mention that thing has one of those mini-starters..?... does that change anything? If it does, then forgive my ignorance. I just examined tthe starter and it has nothing id'd as an 'S' terminal. It has a std threaded copper post (w/nut) and a single wire 'plug' recepticle. The wire for the male plug attaches to the second post on the starter relay (same as the yellow wire from Ign 2) AND I now see there's a wire from the battery + post attached to the top post on the starter relay...and can still find nothing 'looking like' it should go on either of the blades terminals, and there are no more wires left to attach, ha, ha... :sad1: (Don't mis-understand - I do appreciate & trust your advice)

I see no female blade terminals connections on any wiring... so I do not know what to think, based on what my FABO experts are sharing vs what I'm seeing. I do know that this is how it was wired when I bought it & drove it home, BUT that doesn't mean it's wired correctly.

I guess the jury is out until the car has battery power... once I'm there, I'll know what's what and will let you know.
Many thanks to all, truly :thumbup:

 

[Old Country]

The engine is IN, starter is on, battery is in, wiring is all hooked up... so I thought I'd just click the key to make sure the starter did what it's suppose to..... and then!! :angry5:

With the key in IGN 1 (run), suddenly the starter motor starts spining.....? Daaaamn!! :banghead: Additionally; It seems to be spinning slower than it should, maybe 2/3's speed, but it shouldn't be getting power at all on IGN 1. I didn't dare click the key to IGN 2 (start) ..thinking if the solenoid worked it would slam that spinning gear into the teeth on my flywheel.

So now I'm in the 'what the hell stage'...
It's been a marathon weekend working getting the engine installed, all hooked up and here it is 11:14 at night... 15 minutes since this discovery.... I'm tired, trying very hard to ignore what just happened so I can sleep tonight, not wanting to think about what this means and the endless crap I'm going to have to endure trying to find the answer, searching the web, calling here & there... posting HERE..... what the heck...

Basic recap: It has an MSD 6AL and it 'appears' to be wired as per the MSD manual, thus no ballast, and it's wired to the coil, the starter relay has nothing on the bottom two male blade connectors...

I'm a motor guy, and know only minimal 'basic' auto electrical stuff... and since this rig came with a rats nest of old (pre-MSD) wiring I had to clean-out...I obviously screwed up something during that process.

I'd be more than happy to post pictures if you'd let me know what you want a picture of. Help please if you can... I am completely stuck. I was going to check all this before I put the engine in...but just got stupid...

...so tired... head'n for bed. night./ :sleepy5:

 

[67Dart273]

Weeeell... dang it anyway...
Did I mention that thing has one of those mini-starters..?... does that change anything? If it does, then forgive my ignorance. I just examined tthe starter and it has nothing id'd as an 'S' terminal. It has a std threaded copper post (w/nut) and a single wire 'plug' recepticle. The wire for the male plug attaches to the second post on the starter relay (same as the yellow wire from Ign 2) AND I now see there's a wire from the battery + post attached to the top post on the starter relay...and can still find nothing 'looking like' it should go on either of the blades terminals, and there are no more wires left to attach, ha, ha... :sad1: (Don't mis-understand - I do appreciate & trust your advice)

I see no female blade terminals connections on any wiring... so I do not know what to think, based on what my FABO experts are sharing vs what I'm seeing. I do know that this is how it was wired when I bought it & drove it home, BUT that doesn't mean it's wired correctly.

I guess the jury is out until the car has battery power... once I'm there, I'll know what's what and will let you know.
Many thanks to all, truly :thumbup:

I'm confused here. Both starters should have two terminals,


1 the large main battery terminal

2 a smaller "S" (solenoid) terminal.

The problem is, if you eliminate the starter relay, and run the yellow start wire coming from the bulkhead/ ign switch directly to the starter solenoid, there is NO WAY to incorporate a neutral safety switch (or are you running a stick?)

Also I do NOT know what the current draw of the solenoid is on a mini starter. It may be OK. One reason Ma used a stater relay was to ease current draw on the ignition switch -- the starter relay carries the load of the solenoid

So to recap some:

The battery feeds to the big stud on the start relay, also acts as a junction, and runs from there to the big stud on the starter

The second "square" exposed terminal should run down to the solenoid terminal on the starter

One push-on terminal should go to the yellow "start" signal coming from the key/ bulkhead

Second push-on goes to neutral safety switch (auto) clutch safety on stick (if used) or ground if no clutch safety is used. 69/ earlier cars with sticks had the second terminal soldered permanently to the side of the relay.

The key runs the relay, IF the neutral safety is grounded in park/ neutral, or the clutch pushed in.

The relay contacts close, which are hooked internally to the "big stud" and the "exposed square" terminal on the relay. This hooks battery to the solenoid, and fires up the starter.


It is starting to sound to me that you have some sort of backfeed from the yellow start wire to the ignition, causing the solenoid to try to engage.

You have dark blue, ignition 1 (ignition run) originally fed power to ignition RESISTOR

brown, ignition2 (start bypass) is a separate circuit from the key, feeds hot power to coil positive, bypassing resistor.

Using stuff like MSD, blue and brown should be tied together and fed to ignition

yellow start. The "crank" signal from the key, SEPARATE from the ignition circuits, runs ONLY the starter relay, which fires up the starter solenoid.

 

[Old Country]

Let me preface this by saying how very greatful I am to all those who chimed-in and offered their counsel, it was much appreciated. This includes the 3 members who did follow-up phone calls, it was a priveledge. I must confess the weekend is still a blur, with many ups & downs that installing an engine/trani/wiring..etc. can bring in a 2 day stretch with me and my 17 yr old wide eye'd helper (son).

Hey 67DART273 - Thank you very kindly for giving this so much thought and effort, HOWEVER: I must confess... after following the "unanimous advice" (including yous) regarding the "correct wire hook-up to the starter relay".... guess what: The motor still spun & spun & spun...DAMN! So I decided to have my wife sit in there & turn the key and I'd get under the car and watch the starter gear to see what's what. AND guess what? The gear wasn't spinning... matter of fact neither was the starter motor....DOH! Yes I banged my head fairly hard diving out from under the Duster to see exactly what the hell was making the noise ABOVE the engine. AND GUESS WHAT? It was the @#!%$# 'windshield wiper motor'!!! :shock: NO I haven't re-attached the wiper arm to the motor yet, so it was happily spinning away. Go ahead... snicker, laugh your butts off... how stupid is THAT? VERY stupid. :sad5:

Quickly kicking the wife out of the garage without explanation will require a few honey-do's, but I could NOT admit what I'd discovered....not yet.

Yes I know better, yes I 'usually' check to ensure everything is off and yes I've done this engine change/swap/install dance MANY times (20+ yrs ago). This is indicative of in too big a hurry, too late at night, working alone and making an in-correct conclusion...ie: I was listening for the starter and I heard a motor..MUST be the starter, right? Wrong..

Once the WS wiper motor was OFF, and re-checking ALL the other switches and knobs, I clicked the key to IGN2 and that starter spun that engine but quick (plugs are out and I've a new 890 AMP Battery). I turned her over 3 times just to be sure it's good to go, no smoke... and it's all good.. HOWEVER I now have a very small oil mess to clean-up... THAT'S RIGHT I hadn't hooked up the oil pressure tube yet. I had never intended to spin the engine that long, but I was so pumped everything was working as advertised.... well, you get the picture.

I do apologize for the waste of your wisdom my fellow FABO members, BUT belive me I DID learn much about the starting system of this car thanks to you, for which I am truly greatful. :notworth: AND that Relay is all connected just like it's suppose to be, many thanks.

AND whether or not the starter relay would have worked with the wires their original (wrong) positions... frankly I could give a damn... It stays as is. Here are some pics to close this saga. And YES, I will be relocating the negative cable vs across the top of the Battery (it was temporary).

Craig Taylor ~

 

[67Dart273]

Well, live and learn!! Gonna be a REALL nice ride when you're done, looks like.