Power or manual brakes? Which MC?

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72Valiant4Door

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I am in the process of finishing my 73+ disc swap from 72 manual drums, I should be picking up my K-frame from the welder on Monday or Tuesday.

I have the Calipers, MC and Power Booster cores, and will be cashing them in on new units... but there is a huge debate on FABO about power or manual brake swapping...

My questions are, since I am looking for a safer & more modern feel, should I go power brakes, or stay manual? Which master cylinder should I get? Which brake hoses? A or E body?

Originally I was just thinking of a simple complete swap over from the donor car, with new hoses and hardware.

But I don't want to miss an opportunity for better.
 
Manual disc brakes worked great from the factory, so I would only go with power brakes if I really needed them for personal comfort. With power brakes, if you hop up the engine with a wilder cam, then you may or may not have adequate vacuum to operate the power brake booster.

The standard MC diameters for that system were 15/16" for power and 1-1/32" for manual but you can use either on the manual system. The 15/16" MC will give you more braking leverage, i.e., more brake torque for a given pedal pressure; it gives 20% more system pressure for a given pedal pressure than the 1-1/32" MC. It requires a bit more brake pedal movement to operate.

FWIW, for racing, manual typically brakes give better brake modulation, but I have raced on both (rallying). My son and I put the 15/16" MC on manual brakes in his '65 'Cuda, upgraded the front pads to a higher coefficient of friction material, and it operates and feels like any new car brakes. (Actually better!)

If you want the 15/16" MC, then NAPA has the NMC M2122. There are other sources too.

As for the upgrade, look at you lines carefully before re-using. You're in the south so they may be fine. But be sure to go with new rubber lines as a the old ones rot on the inside. And get new wheel cylinders or kits for your rear whee cylinders.

One thing you may need is a proportioning valve; the old drum/drum brake system did not have one. There are some options on that:
- fixed ones like were used on the original cars
- some folks use a variable aftermarket one
- upgrade the front pad material with a higher CoF materila for better balance and better front braking power (especially for the 11" rear drums)
- or with the smaller 9" and even 10" rear drums, some folks are just not using one.

What size rear drums do you have?
 
I was wondering about swapping new model parts on also.


My drums are 10", I do have the prop valve, lines are fine but need new hoses.
 

Get a power booster you wont regret it at all.

Yes, I do. I round filed that sucker first chance I got.

Manual. If you don't like it, boost it. IMO all it does is make the pedal spongy. We don't need any more of that in our cars.
 
I was wondering about swapping new model parts on also.
Not sure what you are asking. There is nothing really new in the general physics of brakes. Some materials have improved. But the principles are the same and the old '73-'76 setup is pretty good.
- ABS in everything is the only thing really 'new' in brakes (but actually ABS existing 30 years ago...)
- The newer large brakes have an advantage in heat capacity but that takes large wheels and do you really use your brakes all that hard?
- Multi-piston calipers have some advantages but really only are needed in very hard use.
- Rear discs add heat capacity, but the brake power that you can put in the back is limited by what you have up front, and the 10" and 11" rear drums have plenty of brake torque as they are. Drums don't like water in them, so rear discs would be good if you drive in a lot of deep standing water.

If you want anything better that you would feel for sure in daily driving, then you might consider using braided teflon soft lines rather than rubber. They do not flex/swell as much under pressure and you get an ever stiffer pedal and more precise brake modulation. And using better CoF (coefficient of friction) pad materials will improve stopping power, but going with much higher CoF pads up front with the 10" drums may put too much brake torque in the fronts and you will be out of balance without going to a different rear shoe lining.

Hope that answered what you were seeking.
 
I think the main issue with the power boosters would be an engine with no vacuum or that the ones for these cars have too much boost.

In general a booster would help you get more pressure out of the brakes, which would increase your ability to brake up until the point of locking. I have seen some dual diaphram booster kits on EBay, however, I have not seen anyone actually running them for feedback.

Due to the way the booster mounts for these cars, there really isn't much of an application where you could just junkyard swap it.

Not sure what you are asking. There is nothing really new in the general physics of brakes. Some materials have improved. But the principles are the same and the old '73-'76 setup is pretty good.
- ABS in everything is the only thing really 'new' in brakes (but actually ABS existing 30 years ago...)
- The newer large brakes have an advantage in heat capacity but that takes large wheels and do you really use your brakes all that hard?
- Multi-piston calipers have some advantages but really only are needed in very hard use.
- Rear discs add heat capacity, but the brake power that you can put in the back is limited by what you have up front, and the 10" and 11" rear drums have plenty of brake torque as they are. Drums don't like water in them, so rear discs would be good if you drive in a lot of deep standing water.

If you want anything better that you would feel for sure in daily driving, then you might consider using braided teflon soft lines rather than rubber. They do not flex/swell as much under pressure and you get an ever stiffer pedal and more precise brake modulation. And using better CoF (coefficient of friction) pad materials will improve stopping power, but going with much higher CoF pads up front with the 10" drums may put too much brake torque in the fronts and you will be out of balance without going to a different rear shoe lining.

Hope that answered what you were seeking.

I've worked in brakes for the last 11 years with the OEMs...There are certainly a few reasons to want some stuff beyond the 73-76 brakes. They are adequate but not really earth shattering (and I have the 11.75 front rotors).

The heat capacity could improve IF you have the larger rotors, but same sized ones from now vs the 73-76 have similar heat capacities...in fact these older rotors have significantly more iron so they are less likely to have judder issues. But the rotors aren't the main issue.

The calipers would seem like on paper that they would have really high capacity being such large pistons but the combination of very few pads with any type of friction coefficient rivaling todays brakes and their quite high slide force make them less than ideal. They also seem to have really high drag torque. I'm not sure if you're referring to "multi-piston" as only being opposed piston stuff like wilwood/brembo or the pretty basic twin piston jobs like you'd find on a basic mustang. The twin sliding caliper with a modern pin setup would be a real good setup for this car. If someone did a bolt on for an 11.75 rotor it would be a great kit to have for a general hobbiest. The twin has better force distribution, especially across a large-ish pad.

Rear disk brakes are great for another reason - they don't have the tendency to lock cold and immediately on a hard brake apply like you get sometimes with drums...and they can be modulated linearly.

If you don't mind larger (17"+ wheels), the Doctor Diff Mustang Cobra kit is a great option. If you do want to keep 15's and want some rear disks he has a kit that will work there too.

I wish we could easily retrofit ABS with Electronic Brake force Distribution to these cars. With a little tuning the car would be able to stop shorter and work better on different surface conditions.
 
Yeah, I was thinking of a 4 pot or more caliper. You make a good point on the mass of the old rotors; it add a lot of unsprung weight (so have a disadvantage for rough road handling in something like rally use), but they are indeed stable with heat. I gotta say that I have never noticed cold drums grabbing and have run rear drums as well as discs in rallying forever.... I wonder if this is more likely to happen with certain drum brake arrangements???

As for better brake pad material, the Kelsey-Hayes setup has a lot of different pad options from Porterfield, Hawk, etc. but I was despairing on finding anything for the stock Mopar calipers... until I finally ran across the EBC line. They do makes pads in a couple of grades for these, and we recently used the Yellowstuff grade in my son's 'Cuda with a CoF up around 0.5. That allowed us to balance the F to R with 11x2.5" rear drums with little or no prop valve reduction in the rear. LOTS of stopping power now!

I am not sure what the OP is seeking as for comments or upgrades. His car description reads like the car is fairly tame. OP, if you share what you intend to do with your car, then the info can be better focused. Will you spend a lot of time up on the 'Dragon' near Knoxville? If so, that calls for a much different mindset than drag racing for instance.
 
I gotta say that I have never noticed cold drums grabbing and have run rear drums as well as discs in rallying forever.... I wonder if this is more likely to happen with certain drum brake arrangements???

It's real common on small pickup trucks, but I have experienced it a bit on the Duster (11.75 disks front and 10x2.5 rear) that any time it's been sitting anywhere where it's damp the rears are crazy grabby and if you don't have ABS they will start getting into slip (wheels starting to lock) right away. Now, my car doesn't have a disk/drum combo valve, just an adjustable. My friend's 2004 Ranger has brakes that hilariously are 10x2.5" and look pretty much just like ours and it's absolutely ridiculous. My 2004 Colorado does it a little as well. Goes into ABS on the rear MUCH faster than on the front axle on both vehicles on the first hard stop.
 
I hate the OE power boosters on these cars. Too much boost, very little pedal feel. Always feel spongy even when properly bled and maintained. And the space they take up in the engine compartment is a factor as well.

I had power brakes on my Challenger until last week. I ran it with the stock sized master cylinder and stock booster, but had upgraded to 11.75" rotors and 11x2.5" rear drums. After driving my Duster with manual disks I had to change the Challenger over. I've run several set ups with the Duster, the stock 10.98" disks with the stock master cylinder, the 11.75 Mopar disks with the stock master cylinder, and currently Dr. diffs 13" cobra style kit with his 15/16" master cylinder. All of them were easier to control than the power disk set up. The 15/16" master is a great set up. Very good pedal feel and response, and surprisingly the pedal effort isn't bad at all. More leg than the power brakes require for sure, but not unreasonable. Worthwhile for the improvement in control, at least in my opinion.

The power booster does nothing for actual line pressure either. That's a function of the master cylinder bore and piston area. The booster just reduces the force needed on the pedal to achieve those line pressures. Sure, you can run a different bore size on the master without paying the pedal effort penalty by using a booster, but there are other things to consider too, like pedal travel, and that has an effect on control as well. Decreasing the pedal travel makes the brakes more sensitive to inputs, making it more difficult to modulate your brake pressure.
 
It's real common on small pickup trucks, but I have experienced it a bit on the Duster (11.75 disks front and 10x2.5 rear) that any time it's been sitting anywhere where it's damp the rears are crazy grabby and if you don't have ABS they will start getting into slip (wheels starting to lock) right away.
Ah damp, that I get. It was the cold part that did not make sense.
 
I hate the OE power boosters on these cars. Too much boost, very little pedal feel. Always feel spongy even when properly bled and maintained. And the space they take up in the engine compartment is a factor as well.

I've noticed a lot of this as well. Someone put the 73-76 power/disc front setup on my car. And the pedal is just insanely light. I actually can't feel it if I'm wearing work boots. Have to more judge how much braking is going on by feel of the car and speed. I've bled the brakes, fiddled with the pedal setting, everything. To try and get some more "feedback" from the pedal. To no avail. The giant pot is annoying as well. I'm considering going back to manual brakes. I don't really see the need for power brakes in a 3000 pound car. It really has no trouble stopping.
 
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