ProComp/Speedmaster aluminum heads

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Hemioutlaw said:
Been in the market for some small block aluminum heads for a 408' single turbo build and been following all of the threads on the SPEEDMASTERS, I don't have the luxury of owning my own flow bench and honestly wouldn't know WTF I was doing anyway. Since everybody and their brother claims to own a bench why it seems like it'd be easier to split atoms in the garage then obtain flow numbers for the SM ported heads is beyond me. I'm not a bare budget guy but ain't afraid to save a buck either if I can and i've (rightfully or wrong) come to the conclusion that the castings seem to be fine. Though I've been talking to someone that has been running their ootb springs,valves and retainers for going on five years now the valvetrain hardware is where i'm tentative and will end up buying name brand stuff and It will assuredly end up costing me more but will allow me to feel a little more secure when I stand on it.

The tariff stuff has definitely impacted overseas goods but we can't have it both ways and sacrifices need to be made so i'm cool with that because we finally got more than an empty suit in the oval office. Talked to Speedmaster just fkn Wednesday and even mentioning Black Friday got offered $1400 Bucks, today via their site pair of ported heads to the door $965 bucks so their on the way. Not real thrilled with the salesmen I spoke with since it's a HUGE price difference but it is what it is and that's a good chunk of Dinero to save.
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Because there is more to making power than a stupid flow number. Much more.

Flow numbers don't impress me unless I see some other numbers with it.
 
What the poster before and after myself and probably many others is how these heads flow. Most places show there results of there flow bench testing of the head there selling.
 
rumblefish360 said:
What the poster before and after myself and probably many others is how these heads flow. Most places show there results of there flow bench testing of the head there selling.
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My question is what is that number telling you?

I've seen heads that had a legit 30 CFM more than the exact same head and make less power. Seen that many times. There is no way to quantify things like turbulence, localized reverse flow and many other things. So really, looking at flow numbers only is just for marketing.
 
I’d be surprised if there wasn’t flow numbers for cnc’d SB heads posted earlier in this very thread.

And.......If not this one, then in one of the other ones.
 
yellow rose said:
Because there is more to making power than a stupid flow number. Much more.

Flow numbers don't impress me unless I see some other numbers with it.
Click to expand...

Agree completely,
Sometimes less is more but Still wanna know......call it curiosity.

Since my current build is a new one in an entirely different direction i'll have no baseline to compare it with.
 
Just my two cents and I'll get my licks in hitting this dead horse. I put on a set of Pro Comp heads on my 340 4 years ago as cast heads. I did have problems with one Helicoil on a manifold bolt. I used 50 thousandths steel shim head gaskets with a KB243 piston I measured 18 thousand out of the hole on the piston . after expansion and Rock I figured my squish to be 30 thousandths my cranking compression ended up being 165 I would have liked it a little higher, but my camshaft comes in at at 241 at fifty on intake and exhaust. Overall I have been very happy with the performance of these heads. I have plans to take them off this winter and open them up
 
Bottom line, people are curious. They want to see/know. And that’s that. From here, feel free to preach until your heart bursts, or your fingers give out. I really don’t care and I don’t have a dog in this fight nor am I going to get into this. I’m curious like other people. And that’s that.

If you feel the need to express yourself and explain things, tell it to everyone.
Rock on bro, the limelight is yours to shine in or make excuses and/or complain.

yellow rose said:
My question is what is that number telling you?

I've seen heads that had a legit 30 CFM more than the exact same head and make less power. Seen that many times. There is no way to quantify things like turbulence, localized reverse flow and many other things. So really, looking at flow numbers only is just for marketing.
Click to expand...
 
I guess it’s classified information that is above our pay grade. I realize some of these guys make their living by porting heads. Maybe it’s a simple fact that when they hand port the heads they can’t get the numbers CNC porting can get or their numbers are better,if they have 1 to compare it to. Wheather they compare to an Eddy is anybody’s guess. Kim
 
That’s a good point and what YR hints about. Numbers aren’t everything and for fact can be misleading and a poor choice if chosen strictly by the numbers.
But I’d still like to know them.
I guess nobody flow tested them.

oldkimmer said:
I guess it’s classified information that is above our pay grade. I realize some of these guys make their living by porting heads. Maybe it’s a simple fact that when they hand port the heads they can’t get the numbers CNC porting can get or their numbers are better,if they have 1 to compare it to. Wheather they compare to an Eddy is anybody’s guess. Kim
Click to expand...
 
oldkimmer said:
I guess it’s classified information that is above our pay grade. I realize some of these guys make their living by porting heads. Maybe it’s a simple fact that when they hand port the heads they can’t get the numbers CNC porting can get or their numbers are better,if they have 1 to compare it to. Wheather they compare to an Eddy is anybody’s guess. Kim
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Your assumption that CNC means good. Far from it. Very few CNC ports I have seen were worth running. The TF porting I looked at was about the best out of the box CNC I have seen.

Most of it is acceptable and some of it is junk.
 
rumblefish360 said:
Bottom line, people are curious. They want to see/know. And that’s that. From here, feel free to preach until your heart bursts, or your fingers give out. I really don’t care and I don’t have a dog in this fight nor am I going to get into this. I’m curious like other people. And that’s that.

If you feel the need to express yourself and explain things, tell it to everyone.
Rock on bro, the limelight is yours to shine in or make excuses and/or complain.
Click to expand...


It's not an excuse or a complaint. It's a fact. Flow numbers will tell you very little about how a given head will make power.

The first thing I learned about flow testing was a straight flow test means very little.

That's why you can lose "flow" and gain power. Remember the old saw about "it's not about the size, it's about the shape"? It's true.

Two ports can flow the same at say 28" but one head will beat the other up on power. It's all about the shape and it starts with the valve job.
 
yellow rose said:
It's not an excuse or a complaint. It's a fact.
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No, you misunderstand. You can make the complaint or excuse not to type and explain to the people.

Flow numbers will tell you very little about how a given head will make power.

The first thing I learned about flow testing was a straight flow test means very little.

That's why you can lose "flow" and gain power. Remember the old saw about "it's not about the size, it's about the shape"? It's true.

Two ports can flow the same at say 28" but one head will beat the other up on power. It's all about the shape and it starts with the valve job.
Click to expand...

This is what you need or should be typing out to people. This above is the first sentence to what you would call a long and drawn out AJ type of response of how and why **** works or doesn’t. This is your call do so or not.
Thanks, but a lesson I don’t need. Though I’m sure it’ll be a good read. It would be worth reading if you can come up with a well written lesson.
Most people don’t understand the reason behind the port shape and the relationship of size and air speed on the size port for a given size engine on a limited or unlimited build parameter but just assume that more cfm is better and bolt something on there engine and then get smoked at the race.

You could do some exceptional work with pictures and comparisons between heads and even point to the Hughes Big Mouth heads as one example and work downwards in port size. Show why things work and not.
Get your assistant ready for pictures!
 
yellow rose said:
Your assumption that CNC means good. Far from it. Very few CNC ports I have seen were worth running. The TF porting I looked at was about the best out of the box CNC I have seen.

Most of it is acceptable and some of it is junk.
Click to expand...

Been in da game for 40 years now as a Die maker, Mold maker and now a Prototype Machinist, ran NC's and now a Yuuuuuge Mazak CNC Powermaster Lathe...all CNC means is Computer Numeric Control and once a program is written and stored in memory the machine is able to replicate said program and toolpath. "IF" it was a good porting process than it will be replicated, the same can be said for a bad porting process and personally I would think that if it was a "Good" process that it would still benefit from some hand smoothing and blending of the surfaces as even a 5-axis machine will still leave tool marks on a spherical surface.

There's nothing wrong with the notation of CNC and technology has come a long way, I can guarantee you that unless you are a True Masochist that wants to produce a cylinder head on a Bridgeport type mill, ALL CYLINDER Heads are going to see CNC time.
 
rumblefish360 said:
No, you misunderstand. You can make the complaint or excuse not to type and explain to the people.



This is what you need or should be typing out to people. This above is the first sentence to what you would call a long and drawn out AJ type of response of how and why **** works or doesn’t. This is your call do so or not.
Thanks, but a lesson I don’t need. Though I’m sure it’ll be a good read. It would be worth reading if you can come up with a well written lesson.
Most people don’t understand the reason behind the port shape and the relationship of size and air speed on the size port for a given size engine on a limited or unlimited build parameter but just assume that more cfm is better and bolt something on there engine and then get smoked at the race.

You could do some exceptional work with pictures and comparisons between heads and even point to the Hughes Big Mouth heads as one example and work downwards in port size. Show why things work and not.
Get your assistant ready for pictures!
Click to expand...


LOL. What I really need then is one of those programs that you talk and it types. I have one on this iPad but that thing hates the sound of my voice or something because I end up spending more time doing editing and correcting things than it would take me to just type it out.

OTOH...you might regret me getting a program that worked!! I'd just talk and talk and talk and I'd make AJ look like a piker with that thing!!!

Be careful what you wish for.
 
I swear procomp or speedmaster used to have flow charts on both stock and cnc heads but I cannot find them anymore.Not saying anything bad about the heads but maybe it wound up being more of a liability to them given all the variables.
 
yellow rose said:
LOL. What I really need then is one of those programs that you talk and it types. I have one on this iPad but that thing hates the sound of my voice or something because I end up spending more time doing editing and correcting things than it would take me to just type it out.

OTOH...you might regret me getting a program that worked!! I'd just talk and talk and talk and I'd make AJ look like a piker with that thing!!!

Be careful what you wish for.
Click to expand...
It's getting close to Cheeseburger time again...
 
lead69 said:
I swear procomp or speedmaster used to have flow charts on both stock and cnc heads but I cannot find them anymore.Not saying anything bad about the heads but maybe it wound up being more of a liability to them given all the variables.
Click to expand...
Did you pull the trigger??..
 
Hemioutlaw said:
Been in the market for some small block aluminum heads for a 408' single turbo build and been following all of the threads on the SPEEDMASTERS, I don't have the luxury of owning my own flow bench and honestly wouldn't know WTF I was doing anyway. Since everybody and their brother claims to own a bench why it seems like it'd be easier to split atoms in the garage then obtain flow numbers for the SM ported heads is beyond me. I'm not a bare budget guy but ain't afraid to save a buck either if I can and i've (rightfully or wrong) come to the conclusion that the castings seem to be fine. Though I've been talking to someone that has been running their ootb springs,valves and retainers for going on five years now the valvetrain hardware is where i'm tentative and will end up buying name brand stuff and It will assuredly end up costing me more but will allow me to feel a little more secure when I stand on it.

The tariff stuff has definitely impacted overseas goods but we can't have it both ways and sacrifices need to be made so i'm cool with that because we finally got more than an empty suit in the oval office. Talked to Speedmaster just fkn Wednesday and even mentioning Black Friday got offered $1400 Bucks, today via their site pair of ported heads to the door $965 bucks so their on the way. Not real thrilled with the salesmen I spoke with since it's a HUGE price difference but it is what it is and that's a good chunk of Dinero to save.
Click to expand...
You said you've been talking to someone who's been running out of the box springs and retainers for 5 years but you're not confident in them? Do they baby the car or do they drag race it?...
 
j par said:
Did you pull the trigger??..
Click to expand...
Still on the fence,I need them like a hole in the head but at that price its too easy to come up with reasons to buy a set. If I did I would probably buy the non cnc and get Yr involved and see what we could get out of them,I don't mind aluminum shavings nearly as much.
 
j par said:
You said you've been talking to someone who's been running out of the box springs and retainers for 5 years but you're not confident in them? Do they baby the car or do they drag race it?...
Click to expand...

It was ootb SM Big Block heads and it's actually in a boat, doesn't get ran too hard and lives its life under 5500 so was really an Apple's to Potatoes comparison. Reality is that once bolted/studded, heads essentially just sit there so not too afraid of them so long as threads don't start pulling......it's the moving and retention components in a head where I'll pony up the bucks and not cut corners and hopefully all will work out to get me where I want to be which is 6.50's with a 450 HP 408 w/9lbs of boost on 275's in a 2800 lb car w/ 3:23's or 55's. Buddy says don't be surprised if it runs Six O's.

Face it, most stuff is made out of Chinkonium anymore and they can make good stuff or cheap stuff and they surely make plenty of that. It's all contingent on what the specifications and parameters are of the party outsourcing the manufacturing so it's not Cholly who's to blame but moreso the greedy corporations that have gotten these FOOLS used to living in a Throw Away Society. If they require U.S. Steel they'll use it, A basically regulation free country with low labor costs is why everything has moved there in addition to the fact that NOT ALL but some Americans are just plain Fkn Lazy or refuse to do anything laborious. Their theft of our IP is my biggest problem with them and not sure if we'll get on top of that.
 
Hemioutlaw said:
It was ootb SM Big Block heads and it's actually in a boat, doesn't get ran too hard and lives its life under 5500 so was really an Apple's to Potatoes comparison. Reality is that once bolted/studded, heads essentially just sit there so not too afraid of them so long as threads don't start pulling......it's the moving and retention components in a head where I'll pony up the bucks and not cut corners and hopefully all will work out to get me where I want to be which is 6.50's with a 450 HP 408 w/9lbs of boost on 275's in a 2800 lb car w/ 3:23's or 55's. Buddy says don't be surprised if it runs Six O's.

Face it, most stuff is made out of Chinkonium anymore and they can make good stuff or cheap stuff and they surely make plenty of that. It's all contingent on what the specifications and parameters are of the party outsourcing the manufacturing so it's not Cholly who's to blame but moreso the greedy corporations that have gotten these FOOLS used to living in a Throw Away Society. If they require U.S. Steel they'll use it, A basically regulation free country with low labor costs is why everything has moved there in addition to the fact that NOT ALL but some Americans are just plain Fkn Lazy or refuse to do anything laborious. Their theft of our IP is my biggest problem with them and not sure if we'll get on top of that.
Click to expand...
3.23's- 55's..?.. interesting..
I was under the impression that the heads were cast over seas (likely for environmental reasons) and all the machine and assembly done here?..
 
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