mrhollywood
Well-Known Member
Gonna be putting in a aluminum radiator after the new windshield is in.
Project Black Betty
- Thread starter mrhollywood
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mrhollywood
Well-Known Member
The windshield is in! I put in myself without breaking it and only had one minor leak that I fixed with a little sealant.
mrhollywood
Well-Known Member
Really only the top of the windshield was a little difficult ...if I ever have to do it again i'll make sure I have a fiber or nylon tool . I used a screen door tool like saw on the mopar muscle website..it worked ok.
wally_x
Member
This thread and Mrhollywood's progress is really inspiring me to keep my /6. Right now its a running bone stock 225 in a 1971 swinger. I'll start my own thread once I get my swinger back from paint, but just wanted to say thanks and look forward to digging into the project and sharing my progress!
Thanks dudes!
Thanks dudes!
It can be a lot of fun to take "the road less traveled."
Lots of grins to be had with the leaning tower of power!
Keep us posted, and don't forget the hairdryer...
:violent1:
mrhollywood
Well-Known Member
My brother who has been into cars longer than myself tried to talk me into swapping the slant out for a V8 but I would not be moved! Lol I told him that I didn't to be another dude swapping in a V8 ...I wanna be different and turbo this slant cause nobody my area has done it! Gonna turn some heads!
Well, there are no flies on a turbocharged slant six. I contend it's the cheaper way to get 500 hp (as an alternative to a normally-aspirated small block.)
Read this and tell me what YOU think:
Comparison of turbo Slant Six 500 HP build vs.
500 HP 318/340/360 small block build
The following is written in reference to the 225 motor. The 170 is a different kettle of fish.
It would seem that slant 6 motors (remember, this is about 225s,) were built (though, not intentionally,) to be force-fed air and fuel.
Whether it's done with a supercharger, nitrous oxide, or a turbo, it once-and-for-all, makes an end run around the built-in breathing problem that slant sixes suffer from birth. Because of their small bores, they can never have the kind of breathing that will deliver horsepower in the 1.75 hp-per-cubic-inch range. Not with that original, cast-iron, 2-valve head, at least.
The engine is rpm limited because of the long (4-1/8") stroke, so it's never going to deliver the goods at 8,000 rpm. That's the rpm where most small-block Chevys that are really "built" seem to make big power. I'm talking the small-displacement, short stroke models.
RPM's? Forget it. Too much piston speed.
Because of the fact that the original plans for the slant 6 included an aluminum block (and, the fact that that aluminum isn't as strong as cast iron,) the basic specifications for the slant 6 block were robust, to say the least; they had to be... aluminum needs more mass to be as strong as it needs to be for reliability, than cast iron. Well, the engine that went on to live in Mopars of various descriptions for many years, turned out to be cast iron.
But, the changes in the cast iron version, from the aluminum parameters, were minimal.
That meant that the resulting engine was an unusually strong critter, not unlike a Diesel, in basic construction.
A forged steel crank with mains the size of a 426 Hemi’s made for an equally-strong bottom end.
Along the way, someone a whole lot smarter than I am, realized that what this all meant was, you could boost the s**t out of this little motor without hurting it. Boost = performance increases!
Tom Wolfe (Shaker223 on FABO) and another FABO member whose name is Ryan Petesron built the prototypes for the engine that is in the '64 Valiant that Freddie and I plan to run. We bald-facedly copied their lead, and we are HOPEFULLY going to run within a second of their cars. There are only minimal differences in their "recipe" from ours. But, they did it first; we're just copy-cats.
In this diatribe, I am going to try to justify why anyone would want to go this route, ($$$$$$$$$$$,) and perhaps point out a few reasons why it might not be such a good idea, after all...
There are (at least) two kinds of people out there; those who just want to go fast, and those who want to go fast and prove something in the process.
Anybody can stick a big engine into a light car with easily predictable results: It's gonna be F-A-S-T!!! Those 440+ cubic inch A Bodies are hard to outrun... and, with good reason! Ma made it pretty easy to drop an RB engine into an A-Body, and beyond getting it to hook, the problems in getting it to go fast are not actually what you'd call "insurmountable." Whoever said, "There's no substitute for cubic inches," said a mouthful!
Senor' Schumacher has made the task of installing a big engine into a Dart or Duster a lot easier, with his motor mounts and custom-fit big-engine-in-a-in small car headers. The appeal is almost overwhelming, if you love "speed."
Some folks, though, look at that operation and say, "Ho Hum... It SHOULD be fast; big block in a small car.... so what?"
Some of those detractors want to produce a fun car with a smaller engine, but not TOO small.. There are the 318/340/360 guys who don't want the hassles that go with the installation of a third-member-breaking big block, but would still like to trim a few Corvettes.
To them, a small-block is the answer; they don't want to mess with a slant six, because 1. They don't like the way they sound, and 2. it's hard to build one that will outrun most Corvettes. They probably have never SEEN an 11-second slant six car. Or, a 12-second one; thirteen second slant six cars are not even that plentiful.... so, they know that they can stick a set of headers on a 340, raise the compression to 11.5:1, go with any one of a hundred different solid lifter cams, and presto," a low 12-second car that will embarrass most street driven anything, Corvettes, included.
Enter the slant 6 turbo, the type of engine that most regular-guy Mopar enthusiasts think is an oddball, weird combination that yeah, may be pretty fast, but has to be expensive!!! Right? I mean, you don't get 2+ horsepower per cubic inch out of a slant six without a ton of costly, cutting-edge technology!
Well, that's just not true.
Let me point out what ~I~ have found out about this turbo six business that has made me wonder whether it might not be actually CHEAPER than building an equal-power small block. Especially, if you already HAVE the /6, but will have to buy a V8.
Here are a few ways that the turbo slant six can be a cheaper alternative to an equally-powerful small block.
For purposes of apples-to-apples, let's compare two 500 horsepower engines; one normally-aspirated 360, with time-honored, normal hop-up mods to produce 500 flywheel HP and a turbocharged slant six with equal power.
Lets start with acquiring a rebuildable engine "core."
People give away slant 6's all the time. The one we are attempting to build was, in fact, given to us. It was on its way to the dump, if we didn’t want it. “Free” is always good…
That scenario is also possible with small blocks, but not as easy... and virtually impossible to find a "free" rebuildable 340. But, you don't HAVE to start with a 340; it can even be a 318... but that won’t be as easy. A 500-horsepower 318 is not hard to imagine, but probably would need some pretty good heads, and 12-1 compression. It would also need to be rpm capable, to a large degree. (7,000?)
Not so hard with a 360, but they are not as much in abundance for free, I think. Could be wrong about that. More like $150 for a rebuildable "core."
Advantage, slant 6.
There is more of everything to buy for 8 cylinders compared with 6. Pistons, valves, bearings, rings, valve springs, HEADS... retainers, keepers...
Advantage, slant 6
The driveability of a turbo slant 6 is not much different from a stocker, in that the main thing(s) that destroy driveability, are radical cams with a fast, ragged idle, and big ports that allow the fuel to fall out of suspension (at low rpm) in the ports, due to low velocities brought on by the size of the ports. The turbo slant six cams don't have much more duration than a stock one, and the ports, even in ported heads, aren't very big.
Advantage, slant 6.
The slant six's that have been turbocharged with high-boost (over 20 pounds,) don't seem to like rpm's and don't NEED rpm's to deliver the goods. Tom Wolfe and Ryan Peterson, the two examples I am citing here, both contend that their engines have a de-facto red line of about 5,500 rpm. With such a low red line, the reciprocating stresses, even with a 1-and-an-eighth-inch, stroke, are low enough that these engines will never fail due to bearing loads brought on by excessive piston speed, That is MY opinion; nothing more. Making 500 horsepower from a normally-aspirated small block is going to require that you spin it, probably fast enough to put engine life in jeopardy, if you do it very often.
Advantage, slant six (my opinion)
Because of the relatively low rpm operation of the turbo slant six, the valve train can remain, with stock pushrods and rocker arms, due to the low valve spring pressures required. The money you DON'T have to spend on needle bearing, rollerized rockers, special, heavy-duty pushrods and roller lifters is money saved.
Advantage, slant six.
The rear axle ratios in the two quickest A Body turbo slant six cars that I have seen evidence of, are 2.76:1 for the strip AND for the street. The turbo motors are weird, in that the car slows down with normally-"steep" rear gears, such as the 4.56:1 units often found in small-block cars. The turbo motor seems to make more power (not unlike a "fuel" motor) when it is "held back" and not allowed to increase rpm quickly. The significance if this is, the turbo motors also can use the same ratio for highway driving AND drag strip action. The small block "built" motor wouldn't think much of a 2.76:1 rear end on the drag strip, nor would it perform up to its potential, with a 4.56:1 on the highway. So, if you build a small block and it does double duty, you really need two sets of gears; one for the drag strip and one of the highway. No problem; you can change third members in a couple of hours (or, less.) But, they don't give away 8.75" A-Body housings these days, and neither is it cheap to buy and maintain two sets of third members, with different ratios; one for racing, blah, blah, blah...
The turbo slant six car can easily make do with a "one-ratio-fits-all" rear end. A late model, A Body 8.25" rear end from a junk yard will be lots cheaper (or, one out of an Aspen/Volare car) and will come with highway (and drag strip) gears already in it.... and is plenty strong for this application. More money saved.
Advantage, slant six
Because a high-stall converter is neither desirable nor necessary, turbo slant six converters are going to be cheaper than a 4,000-5,000-rpm unit that would be probably necessary for a wildly-cammed small block. Once again, the street driveability issue comes to light. The tighter slant six converter would not create as much heat as a high-stall, small block unit would, in daily driving.
Advantage, slant six
I BELIEVE that a turbocharged slant six motor is about 80-100 pounds
lighter than an iron small block. Can't prove that, but I'd bet on it.
Advantage slant six
The "bling" factor at shows might be of interest to some. A nice-looking small block has a LOT of competition at car shows and usually needs to have something really special, in cosmetic appeal, to win an award, just because there are so many... But, a slant six with a turbo on it is such a rarity, judges HAVE to pay attention.
Advantage, slant six
Then, there are the negative factors... and, there are some!
You can always put a turbo on a small block and go much faster than you could EVER hope to go with a slant six
Advantage, small block
No roller cams are available for slant six engine (no available roller-tappet cores) so, the ZDDP issue is always a problem.
Advantage, small block
You REALLY need both an intercooler AND a chemical intercooler (alcohol injector) for a hi-boost turbo slant six, and they don't give these away. None is needed on a normally-aspirated small block,
Advantage, small block
I don't think that a turbocharged slant six is a very good bracket car for drag racing, because of problems with turbo-spool on takeoff, and consistency. We are not building our car to run brackets; if we wanted to win bracket races, we'd build something else.
Advantage; small block
Detonation under boost will destroy a turbocharged motor on boost, quicker than you can say "turbo." So, fuel of sufficient octane is always going to be a problem. E-85 would be the perfect hi-octane fuel, but the quality of it at the pump is so iffy, you just can't trust it when it comes to boosted motors. The normally-aspirated small block, with high-compression pistons is choosy when it comes to octane, too, but the results from normally-aspirated detonation are usually not as "catastrophic" as when it happens with, say, 25 pounds of boost. So, I have to say that the turbo slant six is a problem child in that area. Bear in mind that I originally said a "500-horsepower" turbo slant six. That's what we are talking about, here, But to be realistic, the great bulk of whatever turbocharged slant six motors come to pass, MOST will never see boost levels that high, and the picture changes greatly at 7-10 pounds of boost. But, that wasn't the argument, here. Soooooo...
Advantage, small block
The sound of a well-tuned, high-revving small block at full song, is music to almost everyone's ears. Slant sixes with turbos are quiet: the turbo impeller sort of homoginizes the sound waves... They sound sort of like a UPS truck on steroids...
Advantage small block
Due to the very-limited rpm range (less than 5,500rpm, tops, usually) the slant six turbo motor doesn't need a high rpm ignition system like a high-winding, 500 HP, normally-aspirated small block. A stock distributor will work fine, with no worries about effective spark at 7,000 rpm... 'cause, that boosted slant 6 is never gonna see even 6,000 rpm, much less 7,000...
Advantage, slant six
There are no aftermarket (aluminum, or otherwise) cylinder heads for the slant six, so the best you can do is to port the original head, and add some cheap 1/75"/1.5" valves (some folks have used 318 valves.) And, there's only ONE head to deal with, so there's just no place to spend money (of the quantity the V8 car can absorb) on the head. A complete ported head for a slant 6, ready to run, will be cheaper than a pair of aftermarket V8 heads that will support 500 horsepower, I believe.
Advantage, slant six
I hope that after reading this meandering post, I have made a case for it being actually cheaper to build a 500 HP turbo slant 6 than it is to make the same amount of power with a normally-aspirated, small block V8.
You pays your money and you takes your cherce...
Good luck!!!
cmpierce-1
Well-Known Member
I am listening to this conversation scratching my head. I was going to look at a small block 318 for my 1964 Dart this morning but could get a hold of the guy. Now I'm not so sure.
Can someone give me a general idea of where to get & what items I would need to build my 225 /6 into a turbocharged driver.
View attachment Dart4.jpg?
Can someone give me a general idea of where to get & what items I would need to build my 225 /6 into a turbocharged driver.
View attachment Dart4.jpg?
Nice-looking Dart!!!
To build a street car making about 200 HP (that will get you into the fourteens, probably) you won't need much...
Here's what I would buy, initially:
A junkyard Buick turbo in decent shape. The Buick guys take them off to replace them with bigger units when that want to go faster, which is all the time... check the Grand National forums...
There's a variety of ways to mount a turbo to a slant six exhaust manifold, but a FABO member whose FABO name is "PISHTA"figured out what I believe is the best way to do it, and has pictures on here, somewhere. He takes a 2.5" U-BEND that is mandrel-bent on a very short radius, and attaches a flangeto each end; a turbo mount flange on one end and a flange that will mate to the exhaust manifold outlet on the other end.
In that way, there is no welding necessary on the cast manifold. That is good, because slant six manifolds aare very prone to cracking, and welding on them makes them MORE prone.
I think you'll need a Super Six 2bbl intake manifold and a Holley 350cfm 2bbl carb, modified for blow-thru. There is a lot of information available for this procedure, but if it scares you (as it does me) there are people who will do it for you for a little cash. I don't believe a low-boost (say, 10 psi) setup will require much in the way of carb mods.
Ten psi may not get you into the 14's but I'd bet it will be close.
You won't need an intercooler, or a Boostmaster ignition retard usit from MSD, but a Snowperformance Boost Cooler alcohol/water injection unit might be nice. It might allow you to run enough boost without detonation to trim a bone-stock 340...:?
A 3" exhaust system (single) with a straight-thru mufffler should cap this system off, without having to even pull the head. The stock cam will work well.
I'd seriously consider installing an 8.25" rear from a '73-up A body, because that 7.25" that's in there won't live long. Might require than you shorten the driveshaft a little.
This WILL be a PREMIUM gas engine, but then, so would a decent-performing 318/340/360. in all probability.
It should have great street manners and will be geared ffor the hiway, so driveability under alll circumstances, should be good.
Have fun! :cheers:
I have the picture that your referencing here (hope he doesn't mind). Im looking forward to doing this setup myself on my 63 Valiant in the near future hopefully but I will be using a cheap ebay turbo.
66plyValiant
Well-Known Member
there appears to be a radiator cap sitting beside your engine mount in this picture
Thanks a LOT for that picture!!!
That setup is the best thing since sliced bread!:blob:
It will save whomever uses it a lot od grief in cracked manifolds they DON'T have to fix (weld-up.)
Dunno where you found that picture, but it's a good one and I really appreciate it!!!:cheers:
Thanks for the very kind words!
Actually, ~I~ am the noob... and I am not kidding.
I have never owned another slant six car (other than the one we're building) and have never owned a turbocharged motor before.
Everything I think I know about this stuff, I learned in the last three years, right here on FABO, while we've been building this thing.
We have Tom Wolfe and Ryan Peterson to thank for showing us the way in this endeavor, because they walk the walk AND talk the talk, and both of their cars run like the hammers of hell (F-A-S-T)!!!!
I have tried to pay attention and pass on to others what I have seen proven.
Forced induction and slant sixes would seem to be a marriage made in Heaven...
Thanks again for the compliment; It means a lot!:cheers:
To see our bucket of bolts, just click on:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/billdedman/
mrhollywood
Well-Known Member
actually its the power steering cap.
Umm.. I have noticed that with a turbo that there is LIMITED space for a power steering pump and air conditioning. How hard is it to steer an A-body without it?
I have found a source for electric assisted steering unit for a reasonable sum.
I have NOT found anything useful solutions to a electrically driven AC pump.
The steering pump and , possibly, the AC compressor could be feasibly mounted in the trunk.
I have found a source for electric assisted steering unit for a reasonable sum.
I have NOT found anything useful solutions to a electrically driven AC pump.
The steering pump and , possibly, the AC compressor could be feasibly mounted in the trunk.
I don't think these relatively lightweight A Bodies will work you very hard in terms of steering effort, but the ratio (I think it's 29:1) on the manual boxes sure takes it out of the autocross competition.
The essence of adding a turbo to one of these little cars is one of infinite variety in the build. That is, you're only limited to what your imagination can conceive. I would bet that there is room for both power steering AND an A-C compressor on a /6 turbo'd A Body car if it's a mild build that doesn't require an intercooler or a header. Those are two items that can take up a whole lot of room, but may not be necessary unless you want 300 HP.
It might necessary to utilize one of those aftermarket A-C systems with a more compact compressor, but I'd imagine that it can be done. Lotsa room under the hood of a /6 A Body.
Good luck!:cheers:
mrhollywood
Well-Known Member
The pump doesn't seem like its in the way as much as the steering box is.... if I don't go with headers. Seems like the u-bend /manifold idea might be a little tight w/ power steering box.
That U-Bend could be subject to a lot of modification; you might need to cut it and weld a flat plate on part of the bottom. Since it's not going to be a 500 HP motor, I don't think it will probably be sensitive to stuff like that.
But, what do I know... our car has non-power steering.
Good luck!
You'tre very welcome!!!
Keep us posted! There are several turbo /6's on FABO and more all the time as people discover the advantages of them. They are all a little different, but that's what keeps it interesting, I think!
They (the turbo'd engines) can be as complicated and expensive as you dictate; but even a stock motor, running a measly ten pounds of boost, transforms the car...
Good luck!:cheers:
mrhollywood
Well-Known Member
Just gotta make some radiator supports and i'll be putting in my aluminum radiator in!
mrhollywood
Well-Known Member
I got my 4bbl intake in yesterday!
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