Project Frog Princess

Members Restorations

  1. Idaho

    Idaho Well-Known Member

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    The frog is alive and coming out of hibernation.
     
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    • gdrill

      gdrill If you drink, think, before you type...... Staff Member FABO Gold Member

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      Nice. That was a good sleep!
       
    • Idaho

      Idaho Well-Known Member

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      Who knew a frog could sleep for almost 5 yrs. Good to see a lot of familiar names still around.

      I wasn't sure where to start again after such a long hiatus, and decided to tackle something that had bugged me for a long time, the one significant dent in the L quarter just behind the door. It was pushed in right on the body line making a dent about 10" diameter. I had thought of letting a bodyman friend tackle it, but after some youtubing, I decided to use a slapper spoon and dolly method together with some gentle tapping with a hammer and flat punch from behind right along the body line. I'm quite happy with the result, might not even need filler.

      What's next I'm not sure. I've thought of getting the powertrain together, getting it driveable as is, then disassembling for paint. I'm not even sure why, maybe to ensure all major problem solving is done and I like the results before getting into the work of body prep.

      I had planned to assemble the engine with stock pistons. Now I'm reconsidering and will likely take Brian at IMM's advice to replace the pistons with a set that brings them up .050" level with the bores and with valve relief so cam choice is not a concern. It means a shortblock disassembly but I can see crosshatch marks in the bores, and max bore wear is OK at .004" so I think just a ball hone treatment will suffice. I'd rather not have to send it to a shop.
       
    • jrlegacy23

      jrlegacy23 68 Barracuda

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      Only way to learn. Any before and after pics?
      I am in the process of making a crossmember for my 68 Barracuda 46RH swap, rather than paying $275 for one.
       
    • Idaho

      Idaho Well-Known Member

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      Good to hear from you.
      I forgot to take a before pic, but might have one at a distance. I'll post an after later, if I can remember how.
      I'll be checking on your thread.
       
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      • Idaho

        Idaho Well-Known Member

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        Here's a before and after. I'm working on image sizing with this computer. I think there's a little more to do. I'm making a slapper file to finish it off.

        Dart dent.jpeg

        Dart tire test.jpg
         
      • DionR

        DionR Well-Known Member

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        Glad to hear you are back working on this again. Keep it up!
         
      • Idaho

        Idaho Well-Known Member

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        Thanks. I had a long series of things to do that kinda snowballed. Some were required to get us set up financially for retirement. I'm down to a 3 day work week now and have more time for fun projects.
         
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        • Idaho

          Idaho Well-Known Member

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          The Frog wants to be Stroked - is my chamber size a problem?

          My project keeps changing. After being mothballed for a few years, I have new ideas. Before I get to the title question here's a summary.

          The original plan to power the 69 Dart was to build the "junkyard 360 magnum" low budget engine that a number of members have done well with. I stockpiled much of what would be needed, then got sidetracked.

          With time for reflection, and realizing I'm likely only going to build one hot rod, I decided to put more into the engine since I know that will be the biggest key to getting a grin on. After reading too much already here and elsewhere, I've not seen anyone post a regret about building a stroker. In fact the comments are generally "glowing". It fits with my goal of having a streeter with emphasis on torque, not high rpm horsepower.

          Here's what's been purchased / done so far with thought the process:

          It's getting a V8:
          225 slant / 904 out.

          There's a look / stance I want:
          K member out, HDK suspension purchased.
          Mini tubbed.
          Custom 18" wheel / tire package, rears are 28" tall.
          Shortened Ford 8.8 limited slip 4.10 built, installed with leafs relocated, rear sliders.

          I want comfy seats, with shoulder belts for safety.
          Caddy CTS front and rear seats installed.

          Back to the powertrain:
          78.000 mile used 360 Magnum
          Air gap intake, magnum pattern
          used 750 Holley
          Dougs headers
          used 833 OD tranny
          manual clutch pedal assy robbed from 73 Duster
          Center Force clutch
          flywheel for correct external balance purchased **
          RHS heads from IMM, 62 cc chambers to match original pistons (.050" below deck) *

          ** will need to sell - stroker kit will be internally balanced
          * decision to be made - keep and use dished pistons or sell and consider options

          I believe I can order a SCAT stroker kit dished pistons (around 26 cc) to get the correct compression (around 9.5 to be pump-gas friendly).

          BTW I did cc the one head I've taken out of the box and got around 61 cc.

          The stroker kits don't seem to say if the pistons are zero deck or what. Seems they must be below deck? Maybe quench is a non issue?

          If I were to sell the RHS heads I'd likely go with aluminum with similar flow. One of the reasons is the CTS seats add weight, 50 lb or more maybe. Not that big a deal. The HDK cuts at least 30 lb IIRC. My $ loss would be the discount for re-sold heads and the shipping cost since I think I can get aluminum for around the $1650 or so I paid.

          Different heads will mean different pistons for the stroker kit so I have to decide before that purchase.

          This thought is not likely realistic and I expect to be told this is silly but... buy a stroker kit with higher compression and better quench and order a crazy big cam to bleed off compression...

          So... thoughts on keeping the RHS heads?
           
          Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
        • Idaho

          Idaho Well-Known Member

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          I could not find my last post in the "new post" section. Wondering if that's why it got no replies?
          I'm still trying to get used to the new (to me) format of the forum.
          I'm going to put a shorter version in a new thread.
           
          Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
        • Idaho

          Idaho Well-Known Member

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          408 stroker build starting.
          I found these to be great references.

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          • Idaho

            Idaho Well-Known Member

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            The engine checks out nice.
            Bores within .004, could be DIY honed and run but it’s going .030 over for the stroker kit.
            Crank end play and one main bearing measure in tolerance.
            I saw bearing material in the pickup so was expecting worse.
            Something scored the lower nongrooved half of the rear main and went on its way out the groove with no other visible damage. Crank looks fine.
            Would not matter since these parts will be replaced but kinda interesting.

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          • Idaho

            Idaho Well-Known Member

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            E5EC845A-6332-4408-B6E5-6115E6EE1C0C.jpeg

            The engine is at the machine shop. Block checked out good. It's getting .030 over and line bored.

            So I decided to inspect the A833 OD.
            I started out thinking having it on an engine stand would be nice, but it's better on a bench.
            I'm not sure I will bother to disassemble any further as everything is looking quite pristine.
            Just have to double check the countershaft case holes but I think they are fine.
            I considered having them sleeved, but decided against it, as long as they are in good condiiton.
            I have to come up with an arbor shaft / dummy shaft for assembly. I have the Passon book but its lacking on suggestions for this.

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            • Idaho

              Idaho Well-Known Member

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              I believe my countershaft holes are fine. Slight slop so you can just make it rattle with hand pressure. But a friend has offered the use of his Bridgeport and lathe so I’m going to sleeve the countershaft.

              I took a shortcut by ordering these bearings to use as sleeves. The ID is slightly undersize so I plan to anneal them and open them up to fit the shaft "snug.

              I will need to purchase a boring head. This will be used for the T case holes, and will be used to open up the bellhousing bearing retainer hole. This is needed because the OD tranny uses the large retainer and my bell is for a smaller one. It will also require turning the retainer to a smaller size.

              The retainer cannot be turned all the way down to the bell hole size as this would get too close to the mounting bolt holes. The bell cannot be opened up to the large retainer size because it would get into the shift fork mounting holes.

              I'll post some pics of the process.

              40CD446B-73BC-4A46-8530-94E4648D3C40.jpeg
               
              Last edited: Mar 8, 2020
            • Idaho

              Idaho Well-Known Member

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              The tranny project has been on hold because the gentleman with the Bridgeport is elderly and I do not want to put him at risk. Fortunately its turned out to be far less than predicted here in Idaho, 66 total cases in a county of about 100,000 and no deaths, so I'll be talking to him soon.

              In the meantime I've made progress on the engine. I'm keeping the RHS X heads from IMM engines. On that note, I'm not 100% impressed with them as there is a good .020" difference between valve heights. But I can deal with it. The engine machine work is done. 0.030 over, block square decked, line honed. Stroker kit with cast crank purchased.
              One kicker is my combustion chamber at 61 cc, kept low because of the intent to use factory pistons, resulted in the machinist choosing the KB 416 piston which has a step dish design. This resulted in the step being .020 to .025 above deck (yes the deck machining was off with a .005 taper). So the pistons a back with the machinist who offered to mill them down to zero deck at no charge. This will prevent having to use a .065 gasket, and will keep the compression up around 9.8 with a normal .045 or so gasket.

              You can see in the pic they are marked individually for each cylinder. This is partly because of the 0.005 taper, and partly because the piston compression height varies by 0.002 or so.

              The pistons are rated as having a 25 cc dish. I decided to CC them in the cylinders and came up with 26.5. I'll do this again when they have been shaved down.

              I've also had the original camshaft reground by Oregon cams. I chose a profile very similar to the Comp Cams Thumpr. It has .0511 lift. This was an economical way to go. $150 plus shipping and I save the cost of a replacement distributor gear. The original is not compatible with new cam material. It is degreed in using a Summit brand billet timing set with 9 keyways. With a regrind, the center is not necessarily where dot to dot lines up any more as they have to fit the lobes where they can. Mine was retarded 6 degrees. Ken from Oregon Cams had suggested a 2 degree advance, so I had to advance a total of 8 degrees to get the cam from 106 straight up spec to 104 final. I was glad to have the 9 keyway timing set.

              Now I'm working on getting the valve train set up. In the book "...Big Inch Mopar Small Blocks" Jim Szilagyi suggests the stock rockers are good to about .0525 lift. This seems right to me looking at how they pattern. Any more and valve tip edges would start contacting the rocker pad. Lots of research has gone into choosing a pushrod.

              My factory rods are 6.885" iength. Factory spec is 6.915 to 6.935. I discovered this discrepancy is because pushrods are measured as if there were no holes in the end. Makes sense because this is the effective length based on how they fit in a cup with a space where the hole is. According to Trend Pushrods, a 5/16 pushrod should have about .017 added to actual measured length. I have about 0.030 difference but this may be measurement error since I don't have a 7" caliper and am using a work around.

              Using a lifter held open with internal stacked lockwashers,the old factory head gasket (about 0.045) and an adjustable pushrod, I get a range of 6.708 to 6.730. Preload should add 0.020 to 0.060.
              (Just an FYI, the factory lifter has about 0.180 total plunger range).
              6.708 + 0.017 + 0.060 gives a max pushod length of 6.785.
              6.730 + 0.017 + 0.020 gives a min pushod length of 6.767.

              I found that a washer about 0.070 thick as a shim under the pedestals allows a stock length pushrod to fall within the .020 to 0.60 range with what look to be the shortest and highest valve tips. So I may go that route. The reason for this is the rocker pad to valve tip initial contact looks better to me, with a longer pushrod. The shorter pushrod creates more angle so the valve tip makes initial contact on its edge.

              I'm going to order a new adjustable pushrod or a longer caliper to verify my numbers as this is critical to get right. Or I may build a simple but accurate fixture to use with feeler gauges.
              Any input will be appreciated especially regarding the use of shims.
              A lot of the above is discussed in this thread:
              408 Cam on the way
              I'm hoping to continue the conversation here.

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              Last edited: May 23, 2020
            • Wyrmrider

              Wyrmrider Well-Known Member

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              thumper has lots of exhaust duration
              Ihope you did not really go there
               
            • Idaho

              Idaho Well-Known Member

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              Here’s the specs.
              I believe you saw it in the other thread.
              A little less exhaust duration than the Thumpr.
              228/234 ; 515/515 ; 106 installed at 104
              227/241 ; 498/513 ; 107 (Thumpr)

              Not sure why some pics get flipped sideways :(

              D206B59F-4A78-414F-9733-2E0A63DD3994.jpeg
               
              Last edited: May 23, 2020
            • Idaho

              Idaho Well-Known Member

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              This is a note to myself regarding my transmission modifications:
              "You will need to machine the retainer on the trans to 4.805” Bore the bell to 4.807”. Otherwise you will machine away the tapped holes for the clutch fork pivot to mount."
              Advice from Brewers. More to come on this later.
               
            • sireland67

              sireland67 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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              Why are you using a truck OD in a A body?
               
            • Idaho

              Idaho Well-Known Member

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              It was available, and the conversion is not difficult.
               
            • GGs66GT

              GGs66GT FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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              If I remember right that trans has a 3.somthing first gear a lower second gear direct third o.d. Fourth .
              Nice wide ratio trans great for launch and cruise. Check the ratios I could be remembering what the trans ratios were in the 4 speed I have that is not an o.d.
              Now that I think about it mine had 3.09 first direct fourth and second and third split the difference.

              BTW Chrysler installed the o.d. Trans in the Sport and Dusters along with the p.u.
               
              Last edited: Jun 15, 2020
            • yellow rose

              yellow rose Overnight Sensation FABO Gold Member

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              4th is always direct. Third is overdriven.
               
            • Idaho

              Idaho Well-Known Member

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              I've got the book listing all the ratios. Everyone seems to like the functionality. I'm about to address it's only real weakness putting steel bushings in the aluminum case for the countershaft.
              The OD from a car is harder to come by and tends to be spendy. I got this cheap and it's in perfect shape so I don't mind the bit of extra work.
               
            • Idaho

              Idaho Well-Known Member

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              Parts for engine assembly are here. I was waiting for pushrods.
              I have 0.025 valve height variation so the adjustable HS rockers are nice to allow consistent preload setup. The pushrod length is just right. Some have about 0.010 preload with the adjuster fully backed out which is fine.

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            • Idaho

              Idaho Well-Known Member

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              The steel bushing upgrade is complete.
              I used a reamer to create a snug slip fit for the bushings on the countershaft.
              This was after annealing the hardened steel bushings by heating them red got with a torch, then letting them cool slowly in a coal bed in my outdoor fireplace. They were trimmed to length on a lathe.

              The shaft holes in the tranny were milled on a bridgeport using a boring tool to .004 under the bushing diameter.

              To ensure they were perfectly aligned, rather than depend on the case resting on the mill platform, I made a dummy shaft on a lathe cut so one end fit into the mill quill. This showed that for one of the holes I needed about a 020" shim under the case to line it up. This was extra work but glad I did it because the shaft is very snug and lines up perfectly.

              To install the bushings I heated the case in an oven that I have in my shop to 350. Without cooling the bushings they tapped in easily. I did add permanent locktite as insurance. I did not mill a step on the bushings as I've seen done. The shaft does not spin as it's held by a woodruff key, so there's little chance the bushing will move.

              After tapping them in, I had to do a little work with a pipe and some emery paper as the process shrunk them slightly.

              I cut the woodruff key slot with a Dremel. In hindsight I could have got a neater job had I done this with the Bridgeport but its quite functional just not as good a fit as I'd like. I wound up dropping and losing my woodruff key but this was easy to fab using a steel washer.

              This was a first for me using a Bridgeport. Awesome machine. I'll be using it again to open up the hole on my bellhousing.


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              Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
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