***RESOLVED*** replaced dead battery, now engine doesn't turn over.

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Arethius

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Hey everyone,

I'm hoping I can get some insight and ideas as to how to fix my currently not starting engine.
1970 Dart, automatic, slant 6 225


A couple days ago, I was driving to work and stopped by a gas station real quick before I got to work. When I got back out and tried to start it, I got absolutely nothing. Tried putting it in neutral as sometimes the safety switch or linkage doesn't always end up in the right place and still nothing. Ended up trying to get a jump from another car and I could get a little hum when I tried to start it up. Replaced the battery and as soon as I got the new one wired in, it would turn the starter and get things on the way to starting but it wouldn't ever turn over. I was luckily able to get it to do a compression start and got it out of the gas station and home. It was able to do this a few more times before I had a chance to get in and take a look at what was wrong and each time once it started running, it would be just as it was before the battery went kaput.

Now unfortunately, I can't even get it to do a compression start. So far, I have replaced the battery (problem started around this time), ignition relay, ignition coil, distributor cap, rotor, spark plug wires, and spark plugs. I do get good spark on the points when I manually close them so I don't think it's an issue with the distributor.

She's still pushing gas into the carb and butterfly valve is still operating on it.

So before I try and replace the starter, does anyone else have any ideas?
 
Arethius said:
So before I try and replace the starter, does anyone else have any ideas?
Click to expand...

YES!!!

Learn to troubleshoot instead of throwing parts and money at it.

I DO NOT mean that in a flippant mean manner. I mean, learn to fix it

WHAT YOU NEED to work on electrics

A multimeter, a 12V test lamp, an inline spark tester, and a selection of "alligator clip" leads

You need a FACTORY shop manual which you can download, free, from MyMopar

http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=31

Electrical is in "section 8"

Also from that site, you can download some simplified, 3rd party wiring diagrams which are sometimes easier to follow

============================================================

Next let's pin down the symptoms and narrow it down a bit more:

We need to discover EXACTLY what it is 'acting like'

First, listen carefully to "under the hood." Open the hood in a quiet area, use a second person if you need to. Twist the key to start. Hear anything? One click? One big clunk? A sort of a buzz?

Turn on the headlights and twist the key to start. What happens? They remain bright? Go somewhat dim? Go completely out?

You have a multimeter? Clip your multimeter to the battery posts and take a reading, then turn on the headlights. What is the reading? Maybe the battery is dead, maybe the battery connections are dirty

With the meter connected, twist the key to start, hold it and read the meter. What does it read?


============================================================
HOW THIS WORKS

Somewhere on your firewall you have a starter relay that looks like this

starterrelay.jpg


When you twist the key to "start" the key sends "start" signal on a yellow wire out the ignition switch connector, through the firewall connector, and to ONE of the small push--on terminals of that relay which is the COIL

The second push-on terminal is the other COIL connector. It runs down the firewall, over the bell housing, and to the neutral safety switch. The transmission must be in park or neutral and ground the switch to energize the relay


The "big" stud is BATTERY, hot all the time, and also is one of the contacts in the relay. When Energized, the power goes "out" the exposed "square" screw and sends power down to the starter solenoid

SOME CHECKS

Hold the key to "start" while moving the shift lever from park to neutral, listening for it to try and crank

Disconnect the small wire going to the neutral switch, and ground that relay terminal with a clip lead. Try to start it. If it cranks, then the NSS has a problem

Take a screwdriver and jumper across the two large terminals on the relay. This should energize the starter.

More to come, see what you have with this
 
Yup. What Del said. Time to learn.
 
It has been my experience in the past that when the windings go bad in a starter, through age and or heat, they draw more amps. IF you want to, take the starter off and have it checked at a parts store. Hopefully you have another car.
 
I will say this, 67Dart273 is the MAN when it comes to electrical problems. You will learn a lot from him and RRR.
 
67Dart273 said:
YES!!!

Learn to troubleshoot instead of throwing parts and money at it.

I DO NOT mean that in a flippant mean manner. I mean, learn to fix it

WHAT YOU NEED to work on electrics

A multimeter, a 12V test lamp, an inline spark tester, and a selection of "alligator clip" leads

You need a FACTORY shop manual which you can download, free, from MyMopar

http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=31

Electrical is in "section 8"

Also from that site, you can download some simplified, 3rd party wiring diagrams which are sometimes easier to follow

============================================================

Next let's pin down the symptoms and narrow it down a bit more:

We need to discover EXACTLY what it is 'acting like'

First, listen carefully to "under the hood." Open the hood in a quiet area, use a second person if you need to. Twist the key to start. Hear anything? One click? One big clunk? A sort of a buzz?

Turn on the headlights and twist the key to start. What happens? They remain bright? Go somewhat dim? Go completely out?

You have a multimeter? Clip your multimeter to the battery posts and take a reading, then turn on the headlights. What is the reading? Maybe the battery is dead, maybe the battery connections are dirty

With the meter connected, twist the key to start, hold it and read the meter. What does it read?


============================================================
HOW THIS WORKS

Somewhere on your firewall you have a starter relay that looks like this

starterrelay.jpg


When you twist the key to "start" the key sends "start" signal on a yellow wire out the ignition switch connector, through the firewall connector, and to ONE of the small push--on terminals of that relay which is the COIL

The second push-on terminal is the other COIL connector. It runs down the firewall, over the bell housing, and to the neutral safety switch. The transmission must be in park or neutral and ground the switch to energize the relay


The "big" stud is BATTERY, hot all the time, and also is one of the contacts in the relay. When Energized, the power goes "out" the exposed "square" screw and sends power down to the starter solenoid

SOME CHECKS

Hold the key to "start" while moving the shift lever from park to neutral, listening for it to try and crank

Disconnect the small wire going to the neutral switch, and ground that relay terminal with a clip lead. Try to start it. If it cranks, then the NSS has a problem

Take a screwdriver and jumper across the two large terminals on the relay. This should energize the starter.

More to come, see what you have with this
Click to expand...
I agree, learning to diagnose and fix the correct problem is better. As I'm pretty much a novice under the hood and don't have a lot of free time between my two jobs and access to tons of tools, going through as I have has been a learning experience and I didn't replace all these things after one stop at the store. I spoke with the previous owner of the car (my cousin) and a trusted mopar mechanic on the phone that's about an hour away and followed the advice in troubleshooting the engine through most of the steps. I spent about 10 hours yesterday going through each individual part and trying to determine if it was the cause. Flippantly throwing money at it is a bit wrong. The rotor button was bent, replaced it. Ignition relay, my cousin had laying around and was planning on replacing it anyways. Some of the plugs wouldn't spark when in some wires so replacing all of those seemed like a good enough idea. When I first pulled the distributor cap off and looked in, I could see some oil so I sprayed some WD40 in it to clean it up and replaced the cap. The ignition coil is the only piece I "flippantly" replaced and I figured since I'm already there replacing stuff, why not throw in a new $8 part.

Sorry if I seem a bit angry but with this car being my only mode of transportation to work for the 6 days a week that I work and it's already costed me one day's worth of wages, I'm a bit agitated.

==========================================================

As far as some of your troubleshooting steps, It's a brand new battery so I think we can rule that part out.

The starter does turn the engine and sounds like it normally does when starting it as far as I can tell, the only difference is it doesn't matter how long you have the key in the start position, it just cranks and cranks and cranks and never "turns over" to the engine itself.

After having read the service manual which I already had downloaded and looked through when checking the distributor and cap, the troubleshooting steps it mentions around the starter include the starter clutch slipping and to replace that section of the starter, or the pinion shaft being dry, dirty, etc and to inspect, clean, and test that portion of the starter.

==========================================================

I don't want to come off sounding ungrateful for your knowledge and willingness to share it, because I won't be able to get any more knowledge with this if I just beat it with a wrench by myself but please don't assume that I'm just throwing money at this like I'm some lazy and retired person with too much time on my hands. Hell the car is half my age older than me at this point and I just want a good reliable daily driver that I can keep running as a monument to the respect that I have for my cousin for giving it to me and all the other things him and his family has done for me.
 
Arethius said:
As far as some of your troubleshooting steps, It's a brand new battery so I think we can rule that part out.
Click to expand...

I would not rule out the battery until you have actually ruled it out by testing, however................

Arethius said:
The starter does turn the engine and sounds like it normally does when starting it as far as I can tell, the only difference is it doesn't matter how long you have the key in the start position, it just cranks and cranks and cranks and never "turns over" to the engine itself.
Click to expand...

OK now "we" are confused again. Are you saying the start spins and the engine does not move?

Definitions:

"Crank" or "Turn over" This means the starter is turning the engine around

"Fires" Engine coughs, tries to run, and may keep running

"Fires and runs" or "runs" Self explanatory

So again, we need to pin this down. Does the engine fan turn with the starter, that is it cranks but will not fire?

Arethius said:
the troubleshooting steps it mentions around the starter include the starter clutch slipping and to replace that section of the starter, or the pinion shaft being dry, dirty, etc and to inspect, clean, and test that portion of the starter.
Click to expand...

If you get to this point, and the starter is indeed spinning without rotating the engine, I would just replace the starter. That would be an excellent time to go to a "mini starter," that is a 95 or so Dakota / Ram V8 starter.

Arethius said:
. please don't assume that I'm just throwing money at this like I'm some lazy and retired person with too much time on my hands.
Click to expand...

OK, but that is sorta what you made things sound like. Sounds indeed as if you are trying to repair it in a more logical manner.
 
67Dart273

The starter does crank when in park or neutral and sounds like it does when starting the engine normally except it just keeps cranking and the engine doesn't take over. I know the NSS has a problem as occasionally I need to put it in neutral to get it to crank over but this is a small problem that has been going on for long before I got the vehicle.
 
The starter is turning the engine and the engine fan. It's not firing and "turning over" to the engine to run on it's own.
 
Is it trying to fire at all?

When you replaced the plug wires you got them in the correct firing order?

Rotor button is under the cap, correct? Lined up and pushed down into the notch? (you would be surprised how easy it is to forget to put it in)
 
@Bad Sport

Yes, the wires and plugs are all connected in the right firing order and I did put the rotor back on... At least if I didn't it fell into a hole that I can't see it and with as open as this engine compartment is, it's not on the ground.
 
Arethius said:
The starter is turning the engine and the engine fan. It's not firing and "turning over" to the engine to run on it's own.
Click to expand...

Please use correct terms. "Turning over" and "cranking" is the same thing, meaning, "the engine is rotating with the starter."

It's not FIRING is what you mean to say

Next job, then is to check the spark.

You need to understand the difference between

1.....Cranking the engine by twisting the key

2.....Cranking the engine by jumpering the starter solenoid

That is important when checking spark, because if you jumper the starter solenoid, you can mask some problems and wrongly assume you have others. The coil power "in start" comes from a special contact on the IGN switch called the bypass or IGN2. This is brown, it is only hot "in start" and it only goes one place-----from a contact on the IGN switch to the coil + side of the coil resistor.

The "ignition run" (IGN 1) line goes DEAD in start

So you need to ............

"rig" a spark gap checker to the coil tower, so you can see it through the hood gap, or 2 people. Twist the key and look. You should get a nice blue snappy rythmic spark, at least 3/8" long.

DO NOT use the factory coil wire for this test........it is probably resistive, it might be open, and so on

If that test seems OK pull one or two plugs and see how they look.......Dry? Wet? fouled??? "Rig" them with the wires to ground, and again try the key. Crank the engine long enough to "be sure," and look for spark at the plugs.

If this is OK, you have "the basics"

Which is

COMPRESSION..........enough compression in the cylinders to run, probably at least 75PSI. Consider a compression or leak-down test

SPARK. Good hot spark and at the right time. Maybe the timing chain slipped. You can check timing by cranking on the starter with a light

FUEL. Good, fresh gasoline. Maybe a helpful neighbor kid filled you up with water / other. maybe you got ahold of a diesel nozzle. Hey, it happens

If the plugs are dry or don't look fouled, consider a shot of starting fluid, or about a tablespoon of known good fuel down the carb
 
You did put the two wires back on the + and - on the coil?

NSS isn't the issue, it's turning over.
 
@Bad Sport

Yeah, I even double checked the service manual to make sure they were the correct wires on the correct posts.

@67dart273

You are correct, it is not firing. I have verified I am getting a nice little blue spark on the points of the distributor though.

All the tests so far has been by turning the key, not jumping the solenoids (although I do have a spoon handy that has been used to do that).

The spark plugs are all brand new and was the last thing I have put in with no difference in the sound or action of trying to start the car.

Can you give me a little more direction as how to rig the spark gap checker on the coil?
 
If you have an inline checker, or a plug, stick it directly into the coil tower, and ground the other end with a clip lead or scrap of wire.

If all you have is a spare plug, you can bend the gap "way open, and find a scrap of "anything" that will make up the distance down into the coil. A scrap of small gauge wire wrapped around the plug connector, just stick it down into the tower so the wire makes contact, then ground the plug shell

"All" of us at one time have probably checked spark by just holding the coil wire close to ground. This is "OK" if you know what you are up against. But if the wire is resisor (suppressor) it will color the spark and look weaker and yellow. Also, if it has a bad / open spot, it can send you in the wrong direction
 
You have points I see. If you don't have a timing light you can check timing "static." I would not move the timing arbitrarily, because if the cam has slipped, this will throw you off direction

If you have a wrench (I forget, 1 3/16--1 1/4) for the front crank bolt, you can bring the engine up to TDC, put your test lamp on Coil NEG with the key turned to run, or just look for a spark at the points

Slowly wrench the engine until the points open, wherever "that is" on the balancer is where your timing is.

Of course if you have a timing light, you can check spark "on the starter" This is yet another way to see if you are getting any spark at the plugs.
 
a crank bolt on a six? Ha, good luck. I used to lay the spark plug on the exhaust manifold of an LA to watch the sparks fly. MSD makes a nice crackling spark(s). Anyone mention ballast resistor? Bypass it for a test. if you give the coil 12V and jump the starter solenoid with a screwdriver it should start, see my youtube video of me doing this with no wiring harness. spark, fuel and compression.
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9uU5G3rIkg"]Slant six first start 67 in a 65 - YouTube[/ame]
 
isnt WD-40 dielectric? yes, 44,000-47,800V and thats far more than a stock 6 coil. to catch up., you got fire at the points but no fire at the plugs? I had an internally grounded distributor once, it was arcing under the rotor to the shaft. Didnt notice it until I pulled the rotor and saw the carbon tracks under it.
 
KitCarlson said:
Points? Fouled by WD40, in post #8.
Click to expand...

If he got WD in the points good call

I would certainly check the dist. for "wiggle." WHAT BENT THE ROTOR?

Is the distributor worn out, or did the OP get the cap on kitty-whampus?
 
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