Rich Carb

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hi red , I too have a bracket car , welded dist, it starts and stays at 36 degrees all the time , it starts becuase of cam overlap nothing else, and i am running 12.5 pistons , with a real world comp of about 11.75. converter is 4000 ..and hits at 4400....the only thing i did do was phase in the dist. at tdc before welding it... so lets see ......i have 35 inital plus 35 total ...70 right ? ..LOL.. beats me ....but if he has a valid point i would like to know .
 
it doesnt have any advantage 68. if you read from page 1 I tried to explain the proper procedure.and red, mine had a 454 using 118 026 LS-6 heads ,no porting,cast crank, .700int .704 holman moody regrind from a .728 comp mech cam with rollers. with a moroso electric water pump and a crappy radiator with dual electric fans running 4.10 gears and never went over 200 ,cruising all day long at 180 with 12.5 to 1 compression
 
Burntorange70, I just looked at this thread again. My opinion is that you are not overly rich with the plug you posted a picture of. Also, I would like to say mopar3762 is off base with his timing recommendations, he may have a fast car and the timing he is using may work for him but he didn't get there by a complete understanding of of internal combustion engine and how the cam and cylinder head design effect what the engine needs for timing to run most efficiently.

There are three pieces to the timing picture. Initial, mechanical (or centrifical) and vacuum advance. Initial + mechanical = what is referred to as total timing. From a performance standpoint the vacuum advance is not important since it does not work at WOT, under these conditions the manifold vacuum is close to zero much less than the 6-8 "Hg vacuum necessary to get the vacuum advance to start to move and add timing. Vacuum advance in the 60's and early 70's cars was there only to improve the part throttle light cruising efficiency (in the mid/late 70's the vacuum advance was used to advance or retard the timing for emissions purposes and usually had and electrical or temperature control in between it and the vacuum source).

In a stock mopar distributor if you peer below the point plate (or pickup plate) you will see a plate with slots in it the advance weights ride in. This is what controls the amount of mechanical advance in the distributor. If you look closely you should see a number stamped on it, double this number (remember distributor turns at 1/2 crank speed) to get the number of crank degrees built into the distributor. Also, stock distributors will have a light spring and a stiff spring that has a loop on one end that does not contact the advance weight. This allows the a two stage advance curve in some non performances engines all the timing may not be in to well past 4000 rpm. The vacuum advance will also have a number that when doubled will give you the advance built in the pot. The adjustment screw inside changes the preload on the spring that forces the arm back to the zero point. Adjusting this will impact the vacuum level at which the advance starts to move but and ultimately the amount of vacuum necessary to get to full stroke.

The MP performance vacuum advance distributor (they also sell a billet distributor with out a vacuum advance) outwardly looks like a stock distributor but for the last 5 years or so it has had a Mallory adjustable advance mechanism in side it. It is set up with 24 degrees of timing built in and the lightest pink springs which results in all the timing being in around 1800 rpm. The way it is set up is for it being installed in an otherwise stock engine where you will be running 10-12 degrees of initial timing. That gives you the 34-36 total that an open chamber sb head likes to see.

As you increase the duration of the cam beyond stock you need to add more initial timing to make up for the loss of efficiency due to the additional cam over lap. As the initial increases you need to reduce the mechanical in the distributor to maintain the 34-36 total. Setting the timing at rpm to 34-36 may work for a race engine but it leaves a lot of driveability on the table for a street car. The proper amount of initial gives much better throttle response and more power at the lower rpms. This is where the stall of the convertor has an impact. A high stall will allow the rpm to rev to the stall speed with little or no load, on a street car with a low stall speed the engine is loaded at a much lower rpm and if the timing is not correct it won't make as much power limiting perfromance.

The cylinder head has a direct baring on the total timing the engine wants. Open chamber heads that do not have a quench area do not mix the air/fuel as well and will require more timing to ensure that max cylinder pressure is obtained at 20 degrees after TDC, this is the point at which the most torque will be generated. Closed chamber heads like the magnum head can be set up easily with flat top pistons to have a very good quench and will require less total for max power.

Also, increasing compression generally requires less total timing than low compression engines.

If you get the timing all dialed in you will likely find it easier to fine tune the carb.
 
I feel dumber now thanks to a know it all poster. Names change, attitudes are the same.

Total is the only important number? Yeah right. Try getting a big solid/roller cammed 340 motor to run with a stock MP elec distributor with 6* of initial because the distributor has 28* in it. LMAO. You'll spend more time drilling huge holes in throttle plates than enjoying a cruise. Might just have to take the entire primary plates out. LOL

Set your timing the way Adam and Red explained and you can't go wrong on a street car. You can even set initial with nothing more than a vacuum gauge. No timing light required.

Lots of carb issues have roots in bad timing set ups.

Nice write up Dan.
 
AdamR and dgc333, Thank you for the help. I will try out what you said. I just allways set the timeing at 6 int and called it good. I have not had much time to work on the Dart but will this week. I have the MP dist, I think it has the fast advanc curve.

I got the malory kit. I think that will help out too.

On a side note. I would still like to know how to rejet an E-brock 650 thunder carb. Just for fucher use. Does any one know of a site I could go to that would show me the basics? Hopfuly with some pics.

Thank you all for the help.
 
Does the edelbrock site have a tuning guide or basic instructions for the carb.

Jetting the primaries is really easy, remove the metering rod cap, pull out rod and remove jet at bottom of the well. Or you can just change to a smaller diameter rod to jet up a bit and fatter rod to jet down.
 
But in that case you still have to know what jet is in the carb. So the top will have to come off as this is the only way to see the jets in the rear of the carb. I think the carter strip kits are still available they use to be about $60.00 they give you jets metering rods and springs. They also tell you what to use with what jet and rods in the sheet that you get with it. Or at least they use to.
 
The eddy carb should have a tuning quide in the manual. The tuning kit is about $50. Most eddy carbs (especially electric choke) are lean out of the box un like Holleys which are uaually rich from the factory.
 
DGC333, that is the best explanation Ive ever seen. I understand what you are saying, but if only i could figure out all the little ethings about my engine in order to put that knowledge to good use. Not really sure what compression im running.
 
Wally,
Give us a cylinder pressure reading and we can get close, but we need the cam specs also as this makes a big difference in compression on cranking.
 
Hey BJR,
Was shooting around the idea of doing a compression test on the Demon like you had suggested.. whats a tool like that cost ..i dont need anything fancy, just something that works ...and where can i find one , and how it works would be nice too

You've been a huge help and i cant thank you enough

Dan
 
Dan,
You can get them at most any auto parts store for about $20.00. Take the spark plugs out and screw the appropriate adapter in and you'll need to have the other plugs out also and hold the carb throttle plates open then crank the engine over about 4 revolutions and read the guage.
 
Warm the car up first. Shut it off, Pull the coil wire, Pull the plugs and wire the throttle wide open. Then take your readings.

If you cant find onelocally I bought a nice one from Summit racing.
 
Thanks Bobby and Adam,
Adam, Summit is just easier seeing as im back at work ..i could order one up right now , happen to have a link or Part number that would be a good one to have ? Thanks a million guys, and sorry to hijack the thread breifly
 
at least Mopar3762 managed to insult everyone along with Red. I thought these were places people come for answers, not "You dont understand? why try, you never will......"
 
geuss i was reading a little too far back, I will post my Cam specs soon, I have the card around here. I was getting 120 lb readings all the way around i beleive, last time i checked........
 
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