Runs then dies

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Yote

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My ‘72 340 Demon ( stock except ‘ mild’ cam ?? ) just started this problem . It starts fine then after warming up 10-20 minutes it struggles and dies driving or at idle ( ambient temperature was 80’ ) No backfire. Will restart immediately but does the same. Spraying fuel in carb does not help when struggling.
My tests and new and near new parts-
fuel tank ,lines ,filter ( it stays full) , fuel cap vent ok & air filter
Thermoquad rebuilt
Fuel pump- 6 psi, 10 inches vacuum , 7 oz delivery in 10 sec of cranking
Coil and ECU - both tested at parts store recently
Dual ballast , magnetic pickup, spark plugs
Timing (initial) 30’ BTC
I use non alcohol fuel
Coolant temperature normal
I am thinking this has to be simple but I am confused as is a local mechanic . I believe one of you could diagnose this in 15 minutes if you were here. I would appreciate any ideas. Thanks.
Yote
 
How bout the needle and seat? Spraying fuel won’t help if it’s already flooding. Maybe it’s blowing fuel past the needle. I’d also be considering vapor lock or fuel tank venting problems with those symptoms.
 
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30 initial is way to high with a stock distributor with any amount of curve in it. It might idle fine there but as soon as the rpm comes up it will be way over advanced and will run like crap. You say stock except for a mild cam so back the timing up to a more normal curve. @Mattax will know some stock specs for a starting point. The only time you’d run 30 or more initial is with a locked out distributor. IE no advance.
 
Should be no mechanical at idle, vacuum unhooked and capped

He's talkin about total when the advance is there. Normally, they have "about" 20* mechanical advance. That's 50 total, plus "whatever" the vacuum can pulls in....if you're running one. Whether or not this is your problem, remains to be seen. How much heat does it have in it when it dies? Is it up to operating temp?
 
Also, 6PSI is pushing it for a Thermoquad. They don't like much over 4.5-5. Also 10 inches of vacuum and "mild cam" and "30* initial" don't all fit together. I would be double and triple checking the timing. Have you verified TDC with a piston stop and checked the balancer marks?
 
Yeah, 10" of vac & mild cam do not belong in the same sentence.
I have run 10 psi of fuel pressure with a TQ at the track & never had a problem; fuel pressure was raised to raise fuel level slightly to change the tune.

30* of initial timing might well be what this engine likes with only 10" of vacuum.


The BIG clue: rebuilt carb. In this case a TQ. Strip it down & blow out the passages.
Check:
- idle mixture screws are adjusted when engine is hot
- choke blade is vertical, not loose when warmed up
- floats are not fuel logged
- floats are not binding
- float level is correct
- needles & seats not leaking
- the two o rings are in place under the primary booster legs. Replace if in doubt
- check [ for leakage ] the two black pods expoxied under the black body, under the pri jets. Leaks here can cause strange happenings....If in doubt, remove existing expoxy & re--seal. I do every TQ as a matter of course.
 
My ‘72 340 Demon ( stock except ‘ mild’ cam ?? ) just started this problem . It starts fine then after warming up 10-20 minutes it struggles and dies driving or at idle ( ambient temperature was 80’ ) No backfire. Will restart immediately but does the same. Spraying fuel in carb does not help when struggling.
My tests and new and near new parts-
fuel tank ,lines ,filter ( it stays full) , fuel cap vent ok & air filter
Thermoquad rebuilt
Fuel pump- 6 psi, 10 inches vacuum , 7 oz delivery in 10 sec of cranking
Coil and ECU - both tested at parts store recently
Dual ballast , magnetic pickup, spark plugs
Timing (initial) 30’ BTC
I use non alcohol fuel
Coolant temperature normal
I am thinking this has to be simple but I am confused as is a local mechanic . I believe one of you could diagnose this in 15 minutes if you were here. I would appreciate any ideas. Thanks.
Yote
I have had this happen on my 340
The issue is usually the well seals have come unglued, to fix JB Weld Marine to hold them on only stuff that ethanol will not est.
Other issue can be bad needle and seat, floats and X-rings, as said before

But it could be a coil getting hot and failing, had that happen also. They test normal at ambiente but get high resistance hot.
 
When it dies see if it has spark imediately to rule out the ignition side of it. Testing the componets they hit it with a heat gun to get them up to a hot temp also?
 
My ‘72 340 Demon ( stock except ‘ mild’ cam ?? ) just started this problem . It starts fine then after warming up 10-20 minutes it struggles and dies driving or at idle ( ambient temperature was 80’ ) No backfire. Will restart immediately but does the same. Spraying fuel in carb does not help when struggling.
My tests and new and near new parts-
fuel tank ,lines ,filter ( it stays full) , fuel cap vent ok & air filter
Thermoquad rebuilt
Fuel pump- 6 psi, 10 inches vacuum , 7 oz delivery in 10 sec of cranking
Coil and ECU - both tested at parts store recently
Dual ballast , magnetic pickup, spark plugs
Timing (initial) 30’ BTC
I use non alcohol fuel
Coolant temperature normal
I am thinking this has to be simple but I am confused as is a local mechanic . I believe one of you could diagnose this in 15 minutes if you were here. I would appreciate any ideas. Thanks.
Yote

Here's my interpretation of what you wrote:
The 6 psi, 10" vac, 7 oz deliver were all fuel pump tests.
Here you were trying to determine if the pump is the problem.

Coil and ECU
Here you were trying to determine if the ignition was the problem.

Timing of 30' BTC.
Not really sure what you were checking here, other than major issues in the timing chain/gears or the mechanic changed something.
What is needed is the rpm, and whether the vacuum advance was disconnected and source plugged. 30* could be fine or way off depending on the other info.
Considering it starts, runs, drives and doesn't backfire, timing doesn't seem way off.

--------------------------------------------
My suggestion to find the problem.
A. What was changed?
if nothing that you know of
B. Remove at least one spark plug and see if there are any obvious clues.
C. When it dies or is dying, look directly at whether its fuel or spark. For now, we'll assume compression is not an issue because it starts and runs.

When it dies, remove the air cleaner lid.
a. Look to see if choke is open.
b. Look for clues that the bowls are over filling (dripping boosters, everything looks wet) or too low. Clues for too low can be done by working the throttle by hand to be see if the accelerator pumps have fuel in them. If the choke closes, hold it open so you can see. If you have the skill, check the bowls directly to see they have fuel.

Air cleaner on.
c. Install an in-line spark tester. Try to start it up and watch. If its not sparking, you'll see it, and you'll know the problem is in the ignition not the fuel. Its possible the problem occurs only when the ECU or coil gets hot. Or it simply could be a loose or poor connection in the ignition circuit.

Junk or gunk in the carb. Yes a possibility. You need to know a little bit about the carb circuits. I've had carbs get gunked up with charcoal dust from a vapor collection canister. Hard to figure out at first but one clue of gunked up was turning the idle mix screws did nothing (at slow idle).
With the carb off, you can often see dirt, varnish etc in the bowl etc. Blow out each passage or system (wear goggles) with spray to be sure they are all clear. Its good way to learn the different circuits.
 
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For clarification- some info may be redundant.
1. TDC was verified with piston stop to be correct with timing mark.
2: Timing (30’) BTC set at operating temperature
900 RPM, vacuum advance disconnected and
capped. Air cleaner off , choke open.
3. Coil-
6 ohms primary, 14500 ohms secondary (cold)
0 ohms primary, hot
12000 ohms secondary (hot -105-145’)
4. ECU - 84’ and 94’ when it died.
Plugs (NGK) have 275 miles on them.
Spark appears fine on all plugs.
5. Carb rebuilt by major rebuilder 2900 miles ago.
They rebuild for Summit.
Fuel was sprayed into carb to confirm no fuel
starvation. 10” of vacuum was on fuel pump.
Charcoal canister lines are filtered, I added in line filters.
6 . Engine temp when it died was normal (185’) just
above thermostat and choke was open
7. Compression 115# , (+-) 5# between cylinders
At 3600 ft elevation.
8. Car starts and runs fine when cold, problem
occurs only after thorough warmup.
I am leaning toward something in the ignition circuitry although not ruling out fuel issues or other as you guys have mentioned.
The last time out , the car ran as good as ever (maybe best) with settings as described although problem occurred previously and now seems consistent.
Yote
 
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Their used to be problems with the orange boxes, I had one that had an intermittent internal ground issue that stumped me for a year or so, slapped on a chrome and no issue for years since.
 
Timing (30’) BTC set at operating temperature
900 RPM, vacuum advance disconnected and
capped. Air cleaner off , choke open.
Well that's way off, although I don't think its related to the issue.
Plymouth shows TDC at 900 for manual trans and TDC to 2.5* BTDC at 750 rpm for automatic.
That works OK only when using the original distributors.
For midlly hot rodded, even with factory cam, with low compression, 12 - 16 BTDC at 700 rpm would be a good starting point.

0 ohms primary, hot
If accurate that's a problem. Should show a over an ohm. Not all multimeters will be sensitive enough but 0 is a short.
From '72 Plymouth FSM
upload_2021-8-23_12-42-14.png

Carb rebuilt by major rebuilder 2900 miles ago.
They rebuild for Summit.
That means nothing. Even if they did a wondeerful job, that was 2900 miles ago. Shavings, dirt, varnish, or charcoal all could have developed or moved around until they block a passage.

Fuel was sprayed into carb to confirm no fuel
starvation.
Not a great test and a good way to get hurt. I'd go with that conclusion for now but keep in mind it could be wrong. The checks I listed above are relatively safe and will get closer to the source of the problem.

Charcoal canister lines are filtered.
I wouldn't count on that. The canister has filters from when? 1972? and then depending on how the system is set up, when the charcoal has broken down it can make its way to the carb. Worst is if the bowls have vent direct to the cannister. If its open when the engine is running, charcoal dust migrates. Service manual doesn't show a shutoff when the engine is running... I wouldnt write off that possibility.
upload_2021-8-23_12-53-20.png

example Vapor canister filter
rebuilding Charcoal Canister?

My previous post pretty much sums up how I'd approach the problem. There's only three things the engine needs to run; fuel air mix, spark, compression. Divide and conquer.
Good luck.
 
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For clarification- some info may be redundant.
1. TDC was verified to be correct with timing mark.
2: Timing (30’) BTC set at operating temperature
900 RPM, vacuum advance disconnected and
capped. Air cleaner off , choke open.
3. Coil-
6 ohms primary, 14500 ohms secondary (cold)
0 ohms primary, hot
12000 ohms secondary (hot -105-145’)
4. ECU - 84’ and 94’ when it died.
Plugs (NGK) have 275 miles on them.
Spark appears fine on all plugs.
5. Carb rebuilt by major rebuilder 2900 miles ago.
They rebuild for Summit.
Fuel was sprayed into carb to confirm no fuel
starvation. 10” of vacuum was on fuel pump.
Charcoal canister lines are filtered.
6 . Engine temp when it died was normal (185’) just
above thermostat and choke was open
7. Compression 115# , (+-) 5# between cylinders
At 3600 ft elevation.
8. Car starts and runs fine when cold, problem
occurs only after thorough warmup.
I am leaning toward something in the ignition circuitry although not ruling out fuel issues or other as you guys have mentioned.
The last time out , the car ran as good as ever (maybe best) with settings as described although problem occurred previously and now seems consistent.
Yote


Still could be fuel or ignition. A cold engine will need/use the fuel better than the engine when hot. If too rich/flooding, the cold engine could be consuming it better. If it immediately fires back up, I don't think it is a heat soak ignition issue. There could be an intermittent open circuit. Does it matter if you are driving it? Does it happen if just warming up in the driveway?
 
The problem happens both sitting in driveway and driving. My previous post has slight edits to address others concerns.
Yote
 
Timing (initial) 30’ BTC
are you saying that "initial" is at idle?
Ok yes I see it, at 900rpm.
Are we talking a 340 automatic here? I don't see where you ever said.
Ok then, if it stalls at or near idlespeed; then, that 30* is your biggest problem.
Other problems are; the 3600ft elevation, and the very low 115 psi cylinder pressure. Don't try to overcome the low power at very low-rpm, with tons of timing; it won't work.
By advancing the Idle-Timing so far, you have practically shut off the transfer slots, and that is why you had to crank up the Idle-speed to 900 to keep it running.
Do yourself a favor and back the timing up to about 14/16*, reset the mixture screws to 2.0/2.5 turns out, and set the idle-speed to 700/650 in gear. Now take it for a ride.
The end goal of this exercise is to get the transfer slot exposure underneath the throttle plates to be a lil taller than wide, to set the basic idle fuel delivery, and to just use the mixture screws as idle enrichment-trimmers.. At 3600 ft, it will be easy to run the lowspeed system too rich. If possible, I would try to run the fuel pressure closer to 4.5psi.
And finally, the daymn metering rods have to stay down at idle. And they have to stay down as you drive away at light throttle. To find out when they should begin to open;
Put a vacuum gauge on the intake manifold. Then take the spring right out from under the power-piston. Now take it for a drive. Get her into Second gear, then while monitoring the gauge, do some modest throttle-roll-ons, at various roadspeeds and rpms.. Make a note of the vacuum when the engine lays down. Now put your spring back in, and compare the driving experience. You MOST LIKELY will need a different softer spring and different rods, to compensate for that 3600ft. And don't forget, the darn thing is adjustable for setting the idle fuel....... which has to be done AFTER the transfers are synced up with the timing. And reset nearly every time the Speed screw is tweaked.
Now, if in fact you set the Idle-Timing to 30* with the factory distributor , and the timing is NOT locked out; then your Power-Timing could be 20* or more, higher; Which is a recipe for breaking parts. Your Power-Timing HAS to be limited to, in the range of 32 to 36 degrees, to be "all-in " somewhere between 3000 to 3600. For safety sake; the more you run, the later it should be delayed to.
For a streeter; usually the tires are spinning to 30/40 mph, or more, so, not enough timing is no big deal until then. But for you with only 115 psi CCP, and at 3600ft, I doubt your tires will more than chirp, and if that is the case, then timing will be very important, but not as important, IMO, as getting the power AFR dialed in, cuz at the stock jetting, she will be a lil faaaat.
A FAT engine is a slow slug, that hardly cares about it's timing. But as you lean it out, and the power picks up, you will have to start paying attention to the timing.
You may have to restrict the secondary opening angle
The Vacuum advance system should be defeated until you get the basics dialed in.

With an automatic; from after the idle is set, to until she hits the stall-speed; the engine does not much care about it's timing; so 30* at idle, is an excessive street number. It's NEVER a good idea to force timing on an engine. She'll be happier with 3 degrees not enough than with just one degree too much.
 
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I much apologize for the omission. It is a 4-speed.
Quite a bit of technical advice offered on the forum is beyond my limited knowledge or understanding. Therefore I get pretty hesitant to mess with carburetors other than simple stuff. Nut and bolt approach I am not bad at.
Today— With idle at 800 rpm- Reset timing to 20’ , it is 37’ with mechanical added, vacuum advance disconnected and capped. From cold start (73’) It died in 12 minutes with a full fuel filter. Was able to restart immediately (easily) and ran for 6 1/2 minutes before starting to stumble lightly and died in 10 1/2 minutes.
For my own knowledge, would not my 115# compression be equal to 130# at sea level ?
 
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What the pressure is equal to is sortof irrelevant.
And still, we don't know what engine you have so I can't even back-calculate the pressure for you.
But if it's a 340 with a bit of a cam, then the only way the Wallace calculator gets to 115psi, is if someone bumped the Compression ratio up some.
If I use that same compression ratio and drop the 3600 feet out, then the Wallace spits out a sealevel pressure of 134psi
I used an Ica of 66* for anyone who wants to play the game.
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I have a 4-speed as well, but with 180psi at 930 ft.
As you know; with a manual trans, the engine is married to the rear wheels. So, with typical street gears (should be 3.55s if it's original), and a Regular A833, your engine spends a lotta time at low rpm.
A bit of a cam sortof implies a powerpeak of say 5200, and that puts the torque peak around 3700, and a shift-rpm of say 5500.
Your powerband thus is from 3700 to 5500.
So then, with 27" tires and 3.55s, she won't hit 3700 in First gear, until 31.5mph. In other words, around town, she will be in the soft zone pretty much all the time. Man I feel sorry for you.
In Second gear, 3700 does not arrive until 43.6mph. Thankfully, you can carry first to 5500 and drop into Second at 3970=46.8mph. But, as I can imagine, at 3970 with 115psi, this is not really Rapid Transit.
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back to your fuel problem;
have you proved that your tank is venting?
Pop the filler cap and go for another ride.

Today— With idle at 800 rpm- Reset timing to 20’ , it is 37’ with mechanical added,
37* at what rpm? Is that all in? As in higher revs will not advance any more?
I ask because 17* in the distributor is sortof an anomaly.
If a 340, the factory IdleTiming would have been spec'ed at 5* (IIRC), and the PowerTiming still had to be around 36*, so that would make the mechanical timing in the Distributor to be ~31*. It's a looooong way from 17 to 31.....
 
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Rinsed and blew air thru fuel cap vent. I will have to admit that I haven’t thought to try it with the cap off or loose.
Ran it twice more today. Although the first run the fuel filter remained full the second and third time when it died it was half and near empty respectively. I am starting to think of adding an electric pump , but am probably just taking a poor mechanics attitude of throwing parts until something sticks.
Yote
 
With the engine running and the air cleaner off, and choke open, do you see any liquid fuel dribbling down the carb?
 
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