Johnny Dart
Well-Known Member
Also: If it truly is a truck,in my opinion,there is no need for a quick advance.
Leave the quicker advance for the lightweight cars.
Leave the quicker advance for the lightweight cars.
school me on dist
- Thread starter 1930
- Start date
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Whatever you do, make sure you adjust the distributor so the engine gets the initial timing it wants.
6000 plus pounds 4 wheel drive....its a truck
BillGrissom
Well-Known Member
Then buy an electronic ignition kit. I think you can still find them w/ e-distributor, gold box, ballast, connectors. Used to be >$200, but I recall seeing for ~$150 on ebay. Don't recall if a slant distributor. Your 1986 truck may have the factory "electronic spark computer" (also called "lean burn"?). Regardless, you will have to greatly mod. your engine harness. I expect much more than the "2 wires" Johnny Dart claimed. An HEI module uses no ballast, hence easier to wire. Many posts on both, judge for yourself.
Johnny Dart
Well-Known Member
Greatly mod....?
Come on bill,you think I just make this stuff up ?
Black wire goes to the - side of the coil.
Blue wire goes to the "R" run side of the ballast.
2 wires...Easy Pezy.
And why push the Government Motors stuff on the guy ?
He already stated he wanted to stay with a Chrysler system.
BillGrissom
Well-Known Member
I doubt a 1986 Dodge truck would have a ballast resistor. My 82 Aries didn't (I recall) and it used essentially the same "spark computer" box.
Please continue and tell him how to wire in the ballast, preferably with a provision to bypass the ballast during cranking using the (non-existent?) IGN2 from his key switch.
If he hates GM, the Ford TFI ignition box is similar, as are many from Japanese cars. There was no similar small "ignitor" box (for coil drive) from Chrysler after ~1980, just the bigger "lean burn" box.
To recap (as best as I recall):
Truck was a Lean Burn 225, all of that has been removed - including the wiring for it.
Truck now has a points IGN system as an expedient way to get it running.
1930 would now like to convert it to Electronic Ignition with only Mopar parts and with a dist. that is tuned to work best in a truck.
The EI part seems simple to me, buy one of the kits or scavange those parts from the junkyard.
The tuned dist. is the part that will take some iteration. Since it is a truck that presumably will be used as a truck the usual spring kit(s) may not be the best plan. Their advance curve could easily be too aggressive for the application. I'm reminded of Smokey Yunick's words of wisdom about ignition timing "two degrees too little doesn't matter, two degrees too much is a disaster."
Truck was a Lean Burn 225, all of that has been removed - including the wiring for it.
Truck now has a points IGN system as an expedient way to get it running.
1930 would now like to convert it to Electronic Ignition with only Mopar parts and with a dist. that is tuned to work best in a truck.
The EI part seems simple to me, buy one of the kits or scavange those parts from the junkyard.
The tuned dist. is the part that will take some iteration. Since it is a truck that presumably will be used as a truck the usual spring kit(s) may not be the best plan. Their advance curve could easily be too aggressive for the application. I'm reminded of Smokey Yunick's words of wisdom about ignition timing "two degrees too little doesn't matter, two degrees too much is a disaster."
Good memory
BillGrissom
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I forgot the truck had a points conversion (w/ ballast resistor I assume), so a Mopar electronic ign conversion would be much easier.
I thought to verify my claim that a 1986 factory ignition would not have a ballast and ran across the following post which tells you exactly how to convert to an earlier Mopar ignition (google is your friend):
http://dodgeforum.com/forum/1st-gen-ram-tech/361707-1986-dodge-ram-w150-ignition-problem.html
As in the post, I wouldn't bother trying to bypass the ballast while cranking. Indeed, I did that in my 65 Dart when I wired a Crane XR700 as an interim setup. It needed a ballast and I hadn't wired IGN2 to the engine bay, so I just run IGN1 & IGN2 (combined at key) to the ballast. It fires up fine without bypassing it.
BTW, I must eat half a crow. While a Mopar 1986 slant or V-8 would not have a ballast, the 4 cyl trucks in 1986 did. Probably a Jap-Mopar. I recall reading that the Jap cars were way behind the U.S., with Honda still using points into the 1990's.
I thought to verify my claim that a 1986 factory ignition would not have a ballast and ran across the following post which tells you exactly how to convert to an earlier Mopar ignition (google is your friend):
http://dodgeforum.com/forum/1st-gen-ram-tech/361707-1986-dodge-ram-w150-ignition-problem.html
As in the post, I wouldn't bother trying to bypass the ballast while cranking. Indeed, I did that in my 65 Dart when I wired a Crane XR700 as an interim setup. It needed a ballast and I hadn't wired IGN2 to the engine bay, so I just run IGN1 & IGN2 (combined at key) to the ballast. It fires up fine without bypassing it.
BTW, I must eat half a crow. While a Mopar 1986 slant or V-8 would not have a ballast, the 4 cyl trucks in 1986 did. Probably a Jap-Mopar. I recall reading that the Jap cars were way behind the U.S., with Honda still using points into the 1990's.
Just for clarification from what I have read if I were to go into Napa and buy ( as I did ) electronic dist units for a specific vehicle than no telling still how they are set-up with either springs or pods.
I have read over on slant.org that they just assemble these things from garbage barrels full of miscellaneous parts.
If this is the case than how do I know what I am working with?
Over on slantorg there are some good write-ups on disassembling the dist. and re-curving by changing out springs. At this point I cannot even get the reluctor off my brand new ( re-built ) never used units.
I pry up evenly on equal sides of the reluctor and it will not budge.
I am assuming if I were to disassemble than maybe I would have a better idea of what was in there.
I have read over on slant.org that they just assemble these things from garbage barrels full of miscellaneous parts.
If this is the case than how do I know what I am working with?
Over on slantorg there are some good write-ups on disassembling the dist. and re-curving by changing out springs. At this point I cannot even get the reluctor off my brand new ( re-built ) never used units.
I pry up evenly on equal sides of the reluctor and it will not budge.
I am assuming if I were to disassemble than maybe I would have a better idea of what was in there.
Johnny Dart
Well-Known Member
Ah yes....the .orgers. :banghead: Follow that bunch, and you will chase your tail in a circle, the sky will fall, and nothing you have will ever work.
My advice to you. Leave the dist alone and plug it in. Get the car/truck running, and let it tell you what its doing. If you think you need to improve it, then tinker with it.
For what you are doing, my $ says you will be just fine the way it is.
My advice to you. Leave the dist alone and plug it in. Get the car/truck running, and let it tell you what its doing. If you think you need to improve it, then tinker with it.
For what you are doing, my $ says you will be just fine the way it is.
Thanks for the advice, just to clarify no-one over there told me I needed to do anything with dist. other than chuck it and get an HEI ( which I dont want to do at this point )
I would like to learn how to perform maintenance/driveability issues and am reading prior posts to do so and this only leads to alot more questions such as what I mentioned above.
Looks like I pissed away 30 dollars for a handful of springs at this point for sale over on .org that were going to help me tune my dist. Its my fault for not asking more questions on sites like .org and this one so again knowedge is power.
I would like to learn how to perform maintenance/driveability issues and am reading prior posts to do so and this only leads to alot more questions such as what I mentioned above.
Looks like I pissed away 30 dollars for a handful of springs at this point for sale over on .org that were going to help me tune my dist. Its my fault for not asking more questions on sites like .org and this one so again knowedge is power.
BillGrissom
Well-Known Member
Strange that the reluctor wheel won't pull off. I assume you sprayed WD-40. If you can't get a small puller in there (like for battery posts), maybe unbolt the mounting plate (3 side screws) and use it as a reluctor puller. Either grab it on the sides or thread some puller bolts into the holes (like a steering wheel puller).
Some after-market distributors have the weights on top for easy adjustment, but never seen one for a slant. Eventually, someone may make a general purpose, cheap electronic distributor tuner for a GM HEI module. Rabid Gator was one that was started but dropped. You can do that with full after-market engine controllers like Holley Commander 950 or Megasquirt. Until then, tediously playing with springs and weights, plus swapping vacuum advance modules is the only approach. But I know younger guys would like to adjust their timing via their I-phone.
Some after-market distributors have the weights on top for easy adjustment, but never seen one for a slant. Eventually, someone may make a general purpose, cheap electronic distributor tuner for a GM HEI module. Rabid Gator was one that was started but dropped. You can do that with full after-market engine controllers like Holley Commander 950 or Megasquirt. Until then, tediously playing with springs and weights, plus swapping vacuum advance modules is the only approach. But I know younger guys would like to adjust their timing via their I-phone.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Use a pair of screwdrivers on the inner part of the reluctor, IE don't pry on the tips. Pry GENTLY on each side of the dist. case rim.
Also, "it's not just the springs." At least on V8s. Not all that familiar with slants, but "generally" the length of the slots is too long, causing OVER advance.
What you WANT: Lots of initial advance, but not enough to cause low throttle ping (spark knock) or "kick" on starting,
Enough LENGTH of mechanical advance to get you to the total full throttle point for full power. The springs regulate HOW FAST (what RPM) at which this occurs.
Vacuum is added on "last" and happens at light throttle at cruise, when the carb generates vacuum. As you add more and more throttle for hills and passing, the vacuum goes away, and the advance "drops back" (retards) to the mechanical advance point for max power ---without ping-- for climbing that hill.
WHAT YOU START WITH. All smog distributors, which started in 68 federally, and got worse into the late 70's, have VERY LITTLE initial advance, even AFTER TDC on some engines. THIS MEANS that there is a very very LONG advance curve in the distributor, that is, that the mechanical advance moves a LONG WAYS compared to "what you want." This then, takes the "very little" initial advance and FINALLY (against the strong springs) moves the advance to the "power point" at somewhat high RPM.
To get some idea of what you HAVE and what you WANT, download an earlier shop manual, such as a 66 or 67, and the latest one, the 73. In the rear of the electrical section -8- are distributor specs. THESE ARE IN distributor degrees and therefore you must multiply X2 to get crank degrees.
Back to a V8 for a moment:
http://image.moparmusclemagazine.co...ctronic_ignition_system+advance_plate.jpg</a>
The above is a photo of an advance out of a "smogger" V8. This is THIRTY -15 X 2- crank degrees!!!! "What you want" for performance -in a V8 is probably no more than 20 - at the crank).
Also, "it's not just the springs." At least on V8s. Not all that familiar with slants, but "generally" the length of the slots is too long, causing OVER advance.
What you WANT: Lots of initial advance, but not enough to cause low throttle ping (spark knock) or "kick" on starting,
Enough LENGTH of mechanical advance to get you to the total full throttle point for full power. The springs regulate HOW FAST (what RPM) at which this occurs.
Vacuum is added on "last" and happens at light throttle at cruise, when the carb generates vacuum. As you add more and more throttle for hills and passing, the vacuum goes away, and the advance "drops back" (retards) to the mechanical advance point for max power ---without ping-- for climbing that hill.
WHAT YOU START WITH. All smog distributors, which started in 68 federally, and got worse into the late 70's, have VERY LITTLE initial advance, even AFTER TDC on some engines. THIS MEANS that there is a very very LONG advance curve in the distributor, that is, that the mechanical advance moves a LONG WAYS compared to "what you want." This then, takes the "very little" initial advance and FINALLY (against the strong springs) moves the advance to the "power point" at somewhat high RPM.
To get some idea of what you HAVE and what you WANT, download an earlier shop manual, such as a 66 or 67, and the latest one, the 73. In the rear of the electrical section -8- are distributor specs. THESE ARE IN distributor degrees and therefore you must multiply X2 to get crank degrees.
Back to a V8 for a moment:
http://image.moparmusclemagazine.co...ctronic_ignition_system+advance_plate.jpg</a>
The above is a photo of an advance out of a "smogger" V8. This is THIRTY -15 X 2- crank degrees!!!! "What you want" for performance -in a V8 is probably no more than 20 - at the crank).
805moparkid
Slant and AFX Guy
i would be willing to bet even your truck is going to want 12-16* initial timing, my 73 swinger is at 14*, 16 and i dont get any raise in idle and pick up a miss. For the total 30* is fine, but where it comes in at will be the trick. I would still try to get it as early as it will let you as thats where i picked up all my power and MPG.
if you can i would start with 14* initial, 30* total mechanical by 2500, then the 8.5R can on it set to 10". From there report back and let us know what its doing.
start at 10* adv on the timing and bump it up to 12*, re set idle and listen, go up to 14, then 16 and see what it does. If it likes 16 it may miss up top until you pull some total out. If it misses on slight down hill's you have to much vacuum adv.
if you can i would start with 14* initial, 30* total mechanical by 2500, then the 8.5R can on it set to 10". From there report back and let us know what its doing.
start at 10* adv on the timing and bump it up to 12*, re set idle and listen, go up to 14, then 16 and see what it does. If it likes 16 it may miss up top until you pull some total out. If it misses on slight down hill's you have to much vacuum adv.
I was able to tear into some dist today.
From left to right are
New/re-manufactured 78 Truck with a R 13 Governor
Dist I removed from a 74 Dart with a 9R Governor
New/re-manufactured 78 Truck with a 9R Governor
Random Points dist that I picked up with an L13 Governor
Can someone explain to me how these numbers on the Governors are read, I know its times 2 to get a total reading cause cam turns at 1/2 crankshaft speed but how did they come to this number.
From what I have read it has to do with the length of the slots on the governor....OK I get that, I see that but for instance evidently from what I have read a long slot is a **** Governor cause it allows to much advance which is something to do with the emissions deal.
Id like to understand all of this better.
Id like not only advice on what might be the best Governor I should be looking for that works best on my own heavy 4 wheel drive truck but why I need this Governor.
I am not looking for someone to tell me what I need only but help me to understand why I need it.
Id like to get into these slants and I dont want to have to come running on-line every time I have to make a move with my ignition cause I was too lazy to ask the right questions.
From left to right are
New/re-manufactured 78 Truck with a R 13 Governor
Dist I removed from a 74 Dart with a 9R Governor
New/re-manufactured 78 Truck with a 9R Governor
Random Points dist that I picked up with an L13 Governor
Can someone explain to me how these numbers on the Governors are read, I know its times 2 to get a total reading cause cam turns at 1/2 crankshaft speed but how did they come to this number.
From what I have read it has to do with the length of the slots on the governor....OK I get that, I see that but for instance evidently from what I have read a long slot is a **** Governor cause it allows to much advance which is something to do with the emissions deal.
Id like to understand all of this better.
Id like not only advice on what might be the best Governor I should be looking for that works best on my own heavy 4 wheel drive truck but why I need this Governor.
I am not looking for someone to tell me what I need only but help me to understand why I need it.
Id like to get into these slants and I dont want to have to come running on-line every time I have to make a move with my ignition cause I was too lazy to ask the right questions.
805moparkid
Slant and AFX Guy
if you ran the 9R with 30 total you could have 12* at idle which is pretty close, then your down to springs
To answer your question its what ever more did to make them pass smog.
your correct that you double the number, so a 9R is 18*, if you run 12* initial timing and a 9R (18*) you'll have 30 total mechanical timing. The reason the slot/number is so high is because they pulled the timing way back in the 70's, sometimes even retarded the timing so they still needed a good total timing number
To answer your question its what ever more did to make them pass smog.
your correct that you double the number, so a 9R is 18*, if you run 12* initial timing and a 9R (18*) you'll have 30 total mechanical timing. The reason the slot/number is so high is because they pulled the timing way back in the 70's, sometimes even retarded the timing so they still needed a good total timing number
Here a view of all 4 pods, I have read and been told there will be a # on them somewhere. I have looked these over closely with a magnifying glass and I see nothing stamped into any of them except a 6 or 7 digit part # on the mounting arm.
Again Id like to understand better why I need this #, what I will do with this number ect if I am able to find it.
Reading what I can find on-line and will continue to do so.
Id like to pick out the best governor for my own vehicle, dont know where to start?
Thanks for your help on this
Again Id like to understand better why I need this #, what I will do with this number ect if I am able to find it.
Reading what I can find on-line and will continue to do so.
Id like to pick out the best governor for my own vehicle, dont know where to start?
Thanks for your help on this
I know it may be kinda tough to read my highlighted areas, first area says ..............big cams give poor cylinder filling at idle...........
Is that because the RPMs are low, the valves are open longer and higher so less vacuum = less air fuel ratio ?
Second says .............Poor fill and or low compression means we have to light the fire in the cylinder earlier with more advance at idle.............
Why is this, I dont understand
Third over on the right and top says..........Remove the oil pad in the center of the pad.............The only dist I had with an oil pad was the old points type dist.
Was this a money saving tactic at the rebuild shop with the new ones. Do I need it?
4 Highlighted area says........The stock unit comes with a light spring and a heavy spring with a hoop on one end. This is good for pick-up or heavy vehicles that cant tolerate alot of timing cause of constant heavy load.........
I dont understand this, I am only reading it but have no clear understanding of what I am reading!!
Last lower right says..........These springs are so light the advance is coming in at idle...........
Id like to better understand why this is not a good thing?
It is my understanding at this point that the vacuum pod is only pretty much being worked off idle to sorta help get vehicle rolling and also at cruising speeds but not heavy acceleration cause at that point there is a loss of vacuum and so the weights within the dist are dictating the amount of advance but I dont understand why once the RPMs are up and the weights are spinning why we even need the pod.
Hope all this makes sense. I am going to re-read this article another 6 times and I am sure I will pick up a bit more.
Is that because the RPMs are low, the valves are open longer and higher so less vacuum = less air fuel ratio ?
Second says .............Poor fill and or low compression means we have to light the fire in the cylinder earlier with more advance at idle.............
Why is this, I dont understand
Third over on the right and top says..........Remove the oil pad in the center of the pad.............The only dist I had with an oil pad was the old points type dist.
Was this a money saving tactic at the rebuild shop with the new ones. Do I need it?
4 Highlighted area says........The stock unit comes with a light spring and a heavy spring with a hoop on one end. This is good for pick-up or heavy vehicles that cant tolerate alot of timing cause of constant heavy load.........
I dont understand this, I am only reading it but have no clear understanding of what I am reading!!
Last lower right says..........These springs are so light the advance is coming in at idle...........
Id like to better understand why this is not a good thing?
It is my understanding at this point that the vacuum pod is only pretty much being worked off idle to sorta help get vehicle rolling and also at cruising speeds but not heavy acceleration cause at that point there is a loss of vacuum and so the weights within the dist are dictating the amount of advance but I dont understand why once the RPMs are up and the weights are spinning why we even need the pod.
Hope all this makes sense. I am going to re-read this article another 6 times and I am sure I will pick up a bit more.
805moparkid
Slant and AFX Guy
read my previous post. and the vacuum adv number is on the arm opposite the nipple.
Big cams (lots of overlap) create idle problems having to do with "reversion" issues.
They allow (and actually cause) exhaust gas to enter the open intake valve and seriously dilute and adulterate (if, you will,) the gas/air mixture to the point that is becomes almost non-combustuble.
Advancing the spark is a crutch for this condition because slow-running engines LIKE a lot of advance, and it helps generate torque, which makes the idle seem a little less iffy. but the problem is still there. The only fix I know of is to run wider lobe separation to minimize over-lap, but that comes at a price (power-production.) The only for sure cure I know of is to run some sort of forced induction which will minimize the necessity for long-duration cams profiles. One more GOOD reason to turbocharge a slant six.
My 2-cents...:cheers:
BillGrissom
Well-Known Member
I'll try to consolidate the outstanding questions, without adding to the confusion.
I don't think people know which part your refer to as "governor". The "9R" numbers sound like what is usually stamped on the vacuum pod arm, but you say "no marks" on yours.
The vacuum advance and mechanical advance add together, so isn't an either/or situation. The vacuum advance gives more spark advance at low vacuum (near idle), up to ~15 crank degrees. When you open the throttle vacuum drops and the vacuum advance contribution disappears. This helps avoid pinging.
I never played with tuning the weights. People change springs, weights, file the slots, weld stops in the slots, etc. You could spend a lifetime fooling with that, especially on a factory distributor where getting at the weights is a bi** and removing the distributor on a slant is a messy bi**, especially if the spark plug "drool tubes" leak. I would rather type a number in the computer and be done with it, which is my longer-term goal.
I don't think people know which part your refer to as "governor". The "9R" numbers sound like what is usually stamped on the vacuum pod arm, but you say "no marks" on yours.
The vacuum advance and mechanical advance add together, so isn't an either/or situation. The vacuum advance gives more spark advance at low vacuum (near idle), up to ~15 crank degrees. When you open the throttle vacuum drops and the vacuum advance contribution disappears. This helps avoid pinging.
I never played with tuning the weights. People change springs, weights, file the slots, weld stops in the slots, etc. You could spend a lifetime fooling with that, especially on a factory distributor where getting at the weights is a bi** and removing the distributor on a slant is a messy bi**, especially if the spark plug "drool tubes" leak. I would rather type a number in the computer and be done with it, which is my longer-term goal.
805moparkid
Slant and AFX Guy
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