sealed power lifts

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mopardemon340

mopardemon340

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would you trust sealed power lifters on your 500+hp engine.
 
ok so heres my problem. i have sealed power lifters in my 500hp engine. i have adjusted these lifts to 1/2, 3/4 and 1 full turn past seated and it still makes a lot of valve noise. i talked to a friend who i highly trust and he has a few ideas. he said to try a little heavier oil like a 15w30. he also said that it maybe that the lifters are not holding enough oil pressure and that would y to try heavier oil. any other input would be appreciated.
 
Some questions:
- Are the lifters noisy at start up only, or all the time?
- What is the oil pressure when it does this?
- Got any cam specs? And an engine size? For 500+ HP, even a stroker is gonna have a larger cam and that can open up a few cans of worms.
- What rockers are being used? If the lift is high, then there are other possible sources.
- New engine? What break-in oil was used?
- Any chance this is exhaust impulse noise in the headers?
 
Too much lift on your Cam could cause that issue with some stock lifers, bottom them out and rattle when they cant pump back fast enough. And bent push rods...more noise..
 
my 408 stroker
nm9stheham said:
Some questions:
- Are the lifters noisy at start up only, or all the time?
- What is the oil pressure when it does this?
- Got any cam specs? And an engine size? For 500+ HP, even a stroker is gonna have a larger cam and that can open up a few cans of worms.
- What rockers are being used? If the lift is high, then there are other possible sources.
- New engine? What break-in oil was used?
- Any chance this is exhaust impulse noise in the headers?
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they are most noticeable at idle for noise
408 magnum stroker
oil pressure is 60
CompCams ultra pro 1.6 ratio roller rockers
Howards HR, 235°/241° @ .050", 110° LSA, .565"/.565".
use brad penn oil for break in.
not exhaust impulse
 
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I assume the lifters have the oil holes in the tops, where the pushrods sit? And do the pushrods have the oil holes through them? (Sorry for all the dumb questions.... just trying to see if all is as it should be and the Magnums oil the rockers up through the lifters and then the pushrods.)

It could well be that this cam, with the probable heavy springs that go with it, are too much for stock hydraulics to hold up consistently with the idle oil pressures. I am assuming you are using a 5W30 oil? I'd try a 5W40 or 10W40, non-synthetic; the 40W is to make sure the oil stays heavier when hot and see what it does; if it quiets things, then that probably points to the lifters.

Stock Magnum rockers? That is a lot of lift with stock rockers IMHO, and the rocker geometry may be having trouble handling it. We don't really know anything about the rocker/spring setup here.

As you can see from that linked thread, hydraulics are less reliable than they used to be, and you appear to be pushing stockish ones pretty hard.
 
nm9stheham said:
I assume the lifters have the oil holes in the tops, where the pushrods sit? And do the pushrods have the oil holes through them? (Sorry for all the dumb questions.... just trying to see if all is as it should be and the Magnums oil the rockers up through the lifters and then the pushrods.)

It could well be that this cam, with the probable heavy springs that go with it, are too much for stock hydraulics to hold up consistently with the idle oil pressures. I am assuming you are using a 5W30 oil? I'd try a 5W40 or 10W40, non-synthetic; the 40W is to make sure the oil stays heavier when hot and see what it does; if it quiets things, then that probably points to the lifters.

Stock Magnum rockers? That is a lot of lift with stock rockers IMHO, and the rocker geometry may be having trouble handling it. We don't really know anything about the rocker/spring setup here.

As you can see from that linked thread, hydraulics are less reliable than they used to be, and you appear to be pushing stockish ones pretty hard.
Click to expand...

no there not stock rockers... there CompCams ultra pro 1.6 ratio roller rockers. or are you saying the ratio is stock? these are the lifters sealed power ht2269 they do have a hole on time and the rods have the hole through them to. we use 10w30 mobile one full synthetic once the break in oil was removed
 
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Are you SURE they are small block lifters? I have heard tell of big block lifters being in small block boxes. The oil bands are in different places. I think @Bighead440 had some MP lifters boxed wrong like that once. If it can happen with those, it can happen with any of um.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Are you SURE they are small block lifters? I have heard tell of big block lifters being in small block boxes. The oil bands are in different places. I think @Bighead440 had some MP lifters boxed wrong like that once. If it can happen with those, it can happen with any of um.
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all i know is i bought them for a 5.9 magnum.
 
mopardemon340 said:
all i know is i bought them for a 5.9 magnum.
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Oh wait.....are these roller lifters? If so, they install only ONE WAY. With the oil hole facing the INSIDE of the lifter valley. Face them the other way and they bleed down.
 
its hard to imagine a hydro lifter bleeding down during the cycle of a 4 stroke motor, it just doesnt seem physically possible with their tolerances. Even the loose ones would take more time than a 10th of a second! Im thinking they are not pumping UP. The way a hydro lifter works is like a jack: oil under pressure is admitted through the the seep hole on the side past a check ball/disk into a small reservoir under a piston that is sealed by the OD of the piston and the ID of the lifter body, and in the same operation, the pressurized iol is also routing up the lifter to the seat hole where it feeds up the hollow pushrod and oils the rocker and its associated lubrication path. When this reservoir is full, the check valve seats and your basically running a solid lifter due to the fact that oil cannot be compressed and it has nowhere to go unless it seeps past the check valve (possible but unlikely in volume) or past the tolerance (~.0005!) of the piston (even more unlikely unless you can see an obvious issue just looking at them) you do have sufficient oil pressure in the lifter galley and the lifters are not stuffed with bearing glitter? Your rollers may be worn on the shafts or the noise is in the valve train. Do you have shims between the rockers to valvetrain specs? There can be side to side motion on the shaft if the rockers are not shimmed. Id pull a lifter and simply pump it with a pushrod submerged in oil. Does it pump up? Even the loosest race lifters will bleed down in ~10 seconds, not tenths of a second. Johnson lifters has a pdf paper on this but I cant seem to find it now.
 
pishta said:
its hard to imagine a hydro lifter bleeding down during the cycle of a 4 stroke motor, it just doesnt seem physically possible with their tolerances. Even the loose ones would take more time than a 10th of a second! Im thinking they are not pumping UP. The way a hydro lifter works is like a jack: oil under pressure is admitted through the the seep hole on the side past a check ball/disk into a small reservoir under a piston that is sealed by the OD of the piston and the ID of the lifter body, and in the same operation, the pressurized iol is also routing up the lifter to the seat hole where it feeds up the hollow pushrod and oils the rocker and its associated lubrication path. When this reservoir is full, the check valve seats and your basically running a solid lifter due to the fact that oil cannot be compressed and it has nowhere to go unless it seeps past the check valve (possible but unlikely in volume) or past the tolerance (~.0005!) of the piston (even more unlikely unless you can see an obvious issue just looking at them) you do have sufficient oil pressure in the lifter galley and the lifters are not stuffed with bearing glitter? Your rollers may be worn on the shafts or the noise is in the valve train. Do you have shims between the rockers to valvetrain specs? There can be side to side motion on the shaft if the rockers are not shimmed. Id pull a lifter and simply pump it with a pushrod submerged in oil. Does it pump up? Even the loosest race lifters will bleed down in ~10 seconds, not tenths of a second. Johnson lifters has a pdf paper on this but I cant seem to find it now.
Click to expand...
 
there are no shimes.. i have stud style rockers or what ever there called..
 
mopardemon340 said:
there are no shimes.. i have stud style rockers or what ever there called..
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of course, my mistake. 500HP in an N/A Magnum is serious power, what cam lift are you running? oops I see it, .565. Thats not too much for the valve train. Whats the part number on that rocker?
 
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mopardemon340 said:
no there not stock rockers... there CompCams ultra pro 1.6 ratio roller rockers. or are you saying the ratio is stock? these are the lifters sealed power ht2269 they do have a hole on time and the rods have the hole through them to. we use 10w30 mobile one full synthetic once the break in oil was removed
Click to expand...
Ahah.. I am a BIG fan of Mobil 1 and synthetics as I used to race rally cars a lot, and the reduction in oxidation and bore/ring/bearing wear is tremendous. In fact Mobil 1 saved my turbo rally engines twice.

BUT.... one thing I have found consistently is that Mobil1 is not good at keeping hydraulic lifters quiet. The reason, I think, is that *despite the viscosity numbers on the bottle, the actual viscosity is significantly thinner over most temp ranges than non-synthetics. (You can see this when you pour it out of the bottle and that is reflected in the much lower cold pour point.) Synthetics tend to be thinner over all temp ranges than non-synthetics; the only temps where the non-synthetics get as thin as synthetics will be above 200 F, which is the 'hot' temp at which the larger viscosity number is tested.

We're going to actually go for a 15W50 Mobil1 in my son's 340 to get higher ZDDP numbers (it is a flat tappet cam). Since you have a roller cam, I can't say exactly what ZDDP number you need, but it ought to be lower than the 1200-1400 PPM needed for flat tappets. But be aware that the lighter Mobil 1 weight have ZDDP around 800 PPM.
 
nm9stheham said:
Ahah.. I am a BIG fan of Mobil 1 and synthetics as I used to race rally cars a lot, and the reduction in oxidation and bore/ring/bearing wear is tremendous. In fact Mobil 1 saved my turbo rally engines twice.

BUT.... one thing I have found consistently is that Mobil1 is not good at keeping hydraulic lifters quiet. The reason, I think, is that *despite the viscosity numbers on the bottle, the actual viscosity is significantly thinner over most temp ranges than non-synthetics. (You can see this when you pour it out of the bottle and that is reflected in the much lower cold pour point.) Synthetics tend to be thinner over all temp ranges than non-synthetics; the only temps where the non-synthetics get as thin as synthetics will be above 200 F, which is the 'hot' temp at which the larger viscosity number is tested.

We're going to actually go for a 15W50 Mobil1 in my son's 340 to get higher ZDDP numbers (it is a flat tappet cam). Since you have a roller cam, I can't say exactly what ZDDP number you need, but it ought to be lower than the 1200-1400 PPM needed for flat tappets. But be aware that the lighter Mobil 1 weight have ZDDP around 800 PPM.
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we are going to try the 15w40 to see if it helps. or maybe switch to brad penn.
 
I run 2 full turns of my rocker adjuster on roller lifters. You may have to just take them out and wash them if they’re still noisy.
 
T56MaxTorq said:
I run 2 full turns of my rocker adjuster on roller lifters. You may have to just take them out and wash them if they’re still noisy.
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y 2 full turns i thought spec was 1/2 to 1 full turn. they shouldnt be dirty they only 6 months of use on them
 
Hughes recommended it in their rocker instructions.

Engine may not have a lot of time on it, but a big problem is the engine oil galleys not being cleaned thoroughly after machine work. It takes a gun brush and a lot of patches and solvent to work all the grit and shavings out. Is this your problem? It’s possible.
 
T56MaxTorq said:
Hughes recommended it in their rocker instructions.

Engine may not have a lot of time on it, but a big problem is the engine oil galleys not being cleaned thoroughly after machine work. It takes a gun brush and a lot of patches and solvent to work all the grit and shavings out. Is this your problem? It’s possible.
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ok thanks..
 
That's exactly right. What's happening is, when the engine is shut off, the lifters are bleeding dry....at least those whose holes are pointed away from the center of the engine. Yall ignore what I am talking about, but you will never fix the problem. This has been discussed a lot.

pishta said:
its hard to imagine a hydro lifter bleeding down during the cycle of a 4 stroke motor, it just doesnt seem physically possible with their tolerances. Even the loose ones would take more time than a 10th of a second! Im thinking they are not pumping UP. The way a hydro lifter works is like a jack: oil under pressure is admitted through the the seep hole on the side past a check ball/disk into a small reservoir under a piston that is sealed by the OD of the piston and the ID of the lifter body, and in the same operation, the pressurized iol is also routing up the lifter to the seat hole where it feeds up the hollow pushrod and oils the rocker and its associated lubrication path. When this reservoir is full, the check valve seats and your basically running a solid lifter due to the fact that oil cannot be compressed and it has nowhere to go unless it seeps past the check valve (possible but unlikely in volume) or past the tolerance (~.0005!) of the piston (even more unlikely unless you can see an obvious issue just looking at them) you do have sufficient oil pressure in the lifter galley and the lifters are not stuffed with bearing glitter? Your rollers may be worn on the shafts or the noise is in the valve train. Do you have shims between the rockers to valvetrain specs? There can be side to side motion on the shaft if the rockers are not shimmed. Id pull a lifter and simply pump it with a pushrod submerged in oil. Does it pump up? Even the loosest race lifters will bleed down in ~10 seconds, not tenths of a second. Johnson lifters has a pdf paper on this but I cant seem to find it now.
Click to expand...
 
pishta said:
its hard to imagine a hydro lifter bleeding down during the cycle of a 4 stroke motor, it just doesnt seem physically possible with their tolerances. Even the loose ones would take more time than a 10th of a second! Im thinking they are not pumping UP. The way a hydro lifter works is like a jack: oil under pressure is admitted through the the seep hole on the side past a check ball/disk into a small reservoir under a piston that is sealed by the OD of the piston and the ID of the lifter body, and in the same operation, the pressurized iol is also routing up the lifter to the seat hole where it feeds up the hollow pushrod and oils the rocker and its associated lubrication path. When this reservoir is full, the check valve seats and your basically running a solid lifter due to the fact that oil cannot be compressed and it has nowhere to go unless it seeps past the check valve (possible but unlikely in volume) or past the tolerance (~.0005!) of the piston (even more unlikely unless you can see an obvious issue just looking at them) you do have sufficient oil pressure in the lifter galley and the lifters are not stuffed with bearing glitter? Your rollers may be worn on the shafts or the noise is in the valve train. Do you have shims between the rockers to valvetrain specs? There can be side to side motion on the shaft if the rockers are not shimmed. Id pull a lifter and simply pump it with a pushrod submerged in oil. Does it pump up? Even the loosest race lifters will bleed down in ~10 seconds, not tenths of a second. Johnson lifters has a pdf paper on this but I cant seem to find it now.
Click to expand...



They will bleed down. Unless they are better than they were 10 years ago, if I had to do a HR it was set up to run 20w50 oil because it helped. Some. I know morel is calling out Joe Gibbs oil (or one of the manufacturers is) and calling for a 30 grade oil. I haven't tested those so I can't say.


Again, with all the issues I don't know why guys still build stuff with hydraulic lifters of any kind. The quicker the ramp, the harder it is on the hydraulics.

You want to run a hydraulic? Use an early 1980's grind and live with it.
 
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