So….more header talk….this had me scratching my head

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I like reading your posts on the subject of headers and cams, do you prefer a single pattern over a split pattern? i have had good success with single pattern cams, plus engines we have done for customers.


I usually prefer a single pattern cam. Part of all the split pattern/wider than should be LSA is guys just don’t get their carb(s) in shape. So they take out intake duration. Or they add exhaust. Which ever way you want to look at it. And then they open up the LSA to get the high RPM power up. And all that does is kill power in the middle. And it makes the engine less sensitive to tuning changes.

I can’t emphasize enough the importance of overlap flow on in-line wedge heads.

Flow bench testing heads is a great way to learn how poor overlap flow is on these heads. If you look at a graph of the cam lobe profiles and look at the overlap triangle you can clearly see that overlap flow is affected much more by how far the valves are off the seat than how much time (duration) they are off the seat.

I don’t care who is doing the port work, but looking at lift from say .150 and lower you can grind and back cut and fluff and buff and you might gain 2 CFM. Maybe. The curtain are is so small that getting any air through there is tough. And most of all that grinding and **** does more damage than good because you most likely are increasing reverse flow. And that’s a big deal.

Since I have moved on from 45 degree seats and do mostly 50 degree stuff I run tighter LSA’s yet. It’s all about the shape and the 50 degree seat (IMO) is far better than a 45.

You just can’t look at flow bench numbers or you’ll hate a 50 degree seat.
 
This guy right?



"I'll say it again. Don't make the port bigger there's math for this right. You'll learn it and my customers know my stuffs fast and its fast for a reason, its small ports you'll never see big heads, you'll see that my modified cars and my street stock cars run these unconventional small port heads and kicking peoples butts and not big cams right, big cams don't do it."

Sounds like my kind of guy!
 
This guy right?



"I'll say it again. Don't make the port bigger there's math for this right. You'll learn it and my customers know my stuffs fast and its fast for a reason, its small ports you'll never see big heads, you'll see that my modified cars and my street stock cars run these unconventional small port heads and kicking peoples butts and not big cams right, big cams don't do it."

Sounds like my kind of guy!



I watched it. Had he said it was all about air flow management I wouldn’t disagree at all. But saying you would never use a head bigger than 200 CC’s on a SBC is silly. 200 CC’s doesn’t tell you much about the port or its shape.

At the end of the day, you can’t violate the laws of physics and think you won. Not all “big” ports are bad and not all “small” ports are bad.
 
I watched it. Had he said it was all about air flow management I wouldn’t disagree at all. But saying you would never use a head bigger than 200 CC’s on a SBC is silly. 200 CC’s doesn’t tell you much about the port or its shape.

At the end of the day, you can’t violate the laws of physics and think you won. Not all “big” ports are bad and not all “small” ports are bad.

Whether you agree with him or not is irrelevant as he's making power with small ports and small cams so he obviously knows how to do it. Maybe he doesn't need big ports to make the power he wants as all the other guys need.

Making power with small ports and small cams...... some one needs to edumacate him on how all that port velocity is slowing him and his customers down

:rofl:
 
Whether you agree with him or not is irrelevant as he's making power with small ports and small cams so he obviously knows how to do it. Maybe he doesn't need big ports to make the power he wants as all the other guys need.

Making power with small ports and small cams...... some one needs to edumacate him on how all that port velocity is slowing him and his customers down

:rofl:


Exactly. And whether or not you agree with him is irrelevant. You never post what YOU do.
 
This guy right?



"I'll say it again. Don't make the port bigger there's math for this right. You'll learn it and my customers know my stuffs fast and its fast for a reason, its small ports you'll never see big heads, you'll see that my modified cars and my street stock cars run these unconventional small port heads and kicking peoples butts and not big cams right, big cams don't do it."

Sounds like my kind of guy!


It sounds like he does heads for roundy round engines.
 
It sounds like he does heads for roundy round engines.


He does. He does drag stuff too. I looked him up. That’s what’s confusing about that video. He didn’t say exactly what the heads were going on.

Of course, we are all guilty of confirmation bias. He’s not the only dude building race and championship winning engines in the country. So his way isn’t the only way, or the best or worst way. It is what it is.

I’ve done enough to know you can’t just say this much port volume is all you ever need because it’s a bad way to measure a port and it’s not always true.
 
A lot depends on the arena & rules.

A restrictive rule set on cylinder head ports leads to other areas of development. Perhaps over taxing a parts ability, let’s just use cylinder head flow here as an example, can be useful but how far can it be done. In racing, that criteria is often more than what a street bound daily driver and medium level powered street and strip cars would do. Prime examples I guess would be super stock guys or the FAST class?

For a Fast racer running in the low 10’s with stock heads, intake, carb & exhaust manifolds, is amazing. It’s not exactly the route I’d take. They demonstrate it’s possible, but at what cost dollar wise and drivability wise? Which is subjective & one’s opinion on what they think, see and feel.

I remember reading how a fella installed a super stock cam, complained about the plus 1,100 minimum idle quality and rpm.

As a street bound guy, porting an iron head to within an inch of It’s life is t where I’d want to spend my time and money but would rather purchase & install a TF head. Some may point out that I’m not taking advantage of all the head offers and that’s OK so long as it performs to my expectations. I don’t always see a need to fully exploit the head that far.

The racers of the above classes make the most of what there rules say is ok to use. They can brag all the want. Sometimes there thought pattern doesn’t fit your thinking, your wallet and nor are you confined to there rules. Which may be quite expensive.
 
honestly, from reading your posts, and the tiny difference in ET/ mph, it’s hard to form much of an opinion unless you have a good number of outings under your belt, and the DA was the same.
Didn’t you just say very recently you hadn’t even been out yet this year?

the headers definitely made a difference. The gear change made the car slower 60’ but the headers made up the difference. Ran the same ET as the crappy headers but got more mph. In my mind that’s a win.

Now that i switched gears to get the 60’ better, the car will leave harder. With a small cubic inch engine, I need all the help I can in the 60’ area. I don’t have a big stroker engine that has TQ down low.

all in all, the bigger headers made more power. More mph with less 60’ is a win for the headers.
 
A lot depends on the arena & rules.

A restrictive rule set on cylinder head ports leads to other areas of development. Perhaps over taxing a parts ability, let’s just use cylinder head flow here as an example, can be useful but how far can it be done. In racing, that criteria is often more than what a street bound daily driver and medium level powered street and strip cars would do. Prime examples I guess would be super stock guys or the FAST class?

For a Fast racer running in the low 10’s with stock heads, intake, carb & exhaust manifolds, is amazing. It’s not exactly the route I’d take. They demonstrate it’s possible, but at what cost dollar wise and drivability wise? Which is subjective & one’s opinion on what they think, see and feel.

I remember reading how a fella installed a super stock cam, complained about the plus 1,100 minimum idle quality and rpm.

As a street bound guy, porting an iron head to within an inch of It’s life is t where I’d want to spend my time and money but would rather purchase & install a TF head. Some may point out that I’m not taking advantage of all the head offers and that’s OK so long as it performs to my expectations. I don’t always see a need to fully exploit the head that far.

The racers of the above classes make the most of what there rules say is ok to use. They can brag all the want. Sometimes there thought pattern doesn’t fit your thinking, your wallet and nor are you confined to there rules. Which may be quite expensive.


I agree totally. It’s all class/rule/budget dependent. To make the bold claim that all big ports are bad (referring to the original post made because that’s what the guy in the video said to him at the track) and all big cams are bad is simple minded thinking. And it doesn’t always apply.

It also begs the question what is a big port. And what is a big cam. Or a big header. Drawing a line in the sand on the definition of those things can put you in a box you can’t get out of.
 
This guy right?



"I'll say it again. Don't make the port bigger there's math for this right. You'll learn it and my customers know my stuffs fast and its fast for a reason, its small ports you'll never see big heads, you'll see that my modified cars and my street stock cars run these unconventional small port heads and kicking peoples butts and not big cams right, big cams don't do it."

Sounds like my kind of guy!

I'll just say this about that. I'm not taking big ports off my 496 rat, and putting worked peanut ports on it.....
 
For what it is worth (very little!) the header tests that I have seen where a big header loses power and torque, the too big headers are HUGE.
I have a 440 with two inch headers that runs okay, a street driven n/a small block with custom 2" header that runs okay, and a 454 with a custom 2" header, that is probably too long. I'm not gonna change the custom header cars, cause any possible performance increase won't justify the cost.
The only real experience i have with TOO BIG headers, was a friend's 440 Duster, with 2 1/4, 4" collector headers. It might, MIGHT, have run better with 2", but not enough to justify replacing custom headers. I bet those headers would sure work good on a 572 though........
 
I agree totally. It’s all class/rule/budget dependent. To make the bold claim that all big ports are bad (referring to the original post made because that’s what the guy in the video said to him at the track) and all big cams are bad is simple minded thinking. And it doesn’t always apply.

It also begs the question what is a big port. And what is a big cam. Or a big header. Drawing a line in the sand on the definition of those things can put you in a box you can’t get out of.

Thats also exactly it. What is a big port? I guess we could say that a 225cc intake runner on a 300 or less sized engine is to big for the grocery getter car that mom drives unless she is as twisted as they get.

The same rod the reverse. What’s a small head?

I say let the dyno tell you and have a realization that even though the dyno says “WIN WIN”, it may not be a good thing in the street. Or even the track for that matter.

The biggest thing is the Knowledge of what works for what arena and how to do it best for your particular situation.
 
Header size is a forgivable area unless there’s money at steak. For most, if they put a 1-5/8 on a 414 stroker, it’s a power loss but they don’t care because it’s a blast to drive.
On the other end (sort of) a guy puts 1-3/4 headers on a mostly stock 318 or 340, it’ll show a low end loss. That person may not care ether since most of his “Spirted Driving Exercises” are in the 3500-6500+ area. He doesn’t give a crap about what happens below 3500.

When power falls off, something went to far and that’s how you know.
:thumbsup:
 
Thats also exactly it. What is a big port? I guess we could say that a 225cc intake runner on a 300 or less sized engine is to big for the grocery getter car that mom drives unless she is as twisted as they get.

The same rod the reverse. What’s a small head?

I say let the dyno tell you and have a realization that even though the dyno says “WIN WIN”, it may not be a good thing in the street. Or even the track for that matter.

The biggest thing is the Knowledge of what works for what arena and how to do it best for your particular situation.


And then, you have to consider class rules name such. A 225 CC intake port would be considered small on a 287 inch Comp Eliminator engine, but would be HUGE on a .030 over 283.
 
I will tell you that IF you want to do a header like Calvin Elston builds, then you really need to start over with your entire program. That is because (this is as close as I can get to how he explains it but you can certainly go to speed talk and yellow bullet and search his stuff and read it so here goes…) almost all exhaust ports and exhaust valves are too big. I agree with that. So, if you can shrink the exhaust valve and port and then make the intake valve and port bigger, you can use a header like he builds (a tri-y design with…now I can’t think of it…a merge collector) and if you change you cam timing to match I believe there are some huge power gains to be made.

The problem is how many of us are going to do that? If I was younger and I was up for 40 plus hours of welding and all the R&D I’d do it. But I’m not young and I’m just not into it.

I will say this though. Cam timing, compression ratio and header cross section are very much intimately related. Trying to change one and not the others will not produce decent results.

I cant tell you how many times I’ve tested what is considered bigger diameter tube headers and not one single time have I lost power. Not once. BUT…I also picked the cam timing or the engine they were going on already had favorable cam timing. So what is “favorable” cam timing?? We have to talk about the heads.

All in-line wedge heads are deficient in overlap flow. And you NEED overlap flow. Without overlap flow, the engine will be what I call numb to almost any changes one might make. I know we’ve all seen engines like that. You can port the heads and the results suck. Change the intake manifold and nothing. Bigger headers and again nothing. BTDT. We also see it on dyno tests all the time. They also don’t respond to normal tuning changes. The engine is just numb.

When you see something like that, bet everything you have that the cam timing is wrong. It is the brain of the engine. And a numb brain means a numb engine.

Contrary to popular belief, lower compression engines usually need a bigger primary tube than the same engine with a larger primary tube. It’s all related.

So now we have a relatively high compression ratio and no overlap flow and you bolt on bigger headers and…nothing. And I’d bet when the big headers went on, you had to add jet. That’s your clue the header isn’t working. Big jets are SLOW.

Look at a Hemi. It has incredible overlap flow. So much so that you need to do things to reduce it or you throw power right out the pipes. The in-line wedge is the other end of the spectrum.

Speaking specifically about carb applications, you need to pull on the booster as hard as you can. Anything you can do to pull the booster harder will make the engine make more power.

The number one killer of overlap flow is wide LSA’s. It just kills overlap flow and makes the engine numb. The closer to correct you are on overlap, the more power you will make because you are using that overlap to pull on the booster. The same goes for head porting. If you port the heads and flow more, but it requires bigger jetting, you can almost bet it will lose power. You lost the pull on the booster. It seems counter intuitive but that’s how it works.

The current trend has been for years now to reduce seat to seat timing (not bad if you do it correctly) and then open the LSA up to extend the RPM range where they need it. Invariably that engine will be numb to tuning, header sizing and intake manifolding.

So the header gets blamed when the cam is the issue.

We just went from 1.625 to 1.875 headers on @lead69’s Dart. The engine was pretty close on tune before the headers. Just bolting on the bigger headers made the engine pig rich. And most would jump to the conclusion that the big header was killing it. In fact, the opposite was true.

The big header actually was pulling harder on the boosters and even on the idle circuit (which is exactly what you want the header to do) and made it pig rich.

I had to go up .008 on the idle air bleeds, but I really need to go in and reduce the idle feed restricters some and go back down in idle air bleed for drivability.

I went 7 sizes SMALLER on the primary jets and 8 sizes smaller on the secondary jets. It’s pretty close at a cruise but it’s still a bit rich at WOT.

And all that is because the compression, cam timing and header size are working at overlap to pull on the booster.

If you bolt on better header or a better intake and it does nothing or goes slower, look at your cam and what you have at overlap.
If you want to do the r&d I can do the welding.
 
HA!!! I’m too old for all that R&D. I’m ready to ride off into the sunset and drink ginger ale while bitching at my wife.
I've got an experiment I plan to do to run a taller tire with my fender well headers. I'd like to get Dyno numbers on these 2 inch hookers and after I move some tubes around and mess with the collector
 
HA!!! I’m too old for all that R&D. I’m ready to ride off into the sunset and drink ginger ale while bitching at my wife.
You're just a youngster. lol
Get out to the shop and get to work.
 
I've got an experiment I plan to do to run a taller tire with my fender well headers. I'd like to get Dyno numbers on these 2 inch hookers and after I move some tubes around and mess with the collector


We will get dyno numbers. Unless I blow this place completely off the map and walk into the woods and live off the grid.
 
LOL. I my blow myself up at the same time. Oh wait, I can’t do that. That would make my wife happy and I’m not about to start making her happy now.

Yeah, hold on a minute. We have some junk to run before that ship sets sail and all the corn syrup in ginger ale catches up to ya….
 
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