Some ignition questions

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macadoo1961

macadoo1961

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Hi, have not been on site for awhile....poor Valiant has taken the backseat for awhile, just lookin pretty in the garage with electrical gremlins it has a 360 with orange module electronic ignition. Started having quiting issues with no spark, very random.....first thing I checked stopped me right there and has taken quite a bit of spare time to repair.....firewall plug was burnt up bad on battery and alt connections especially. Well I've finally got all wiring and plug replaced, along with all new wiring under hood with the exception of the headlight,turn signal,horn harness as it was in fairly decent shape. All wiring going through firewall under dash is now hardwired with no plugs as well as head lights, ignition and ballast resistor bypass are all on relays under the hood with direct battery power on them to power the points in them. Also replaced 5pin ignition harness with a new Mopar replacement from Jegs. So all should be good right?? Not yet....no spark issue still has come up.....again very random, great voltage to coil and orange module, pick up coil in distributor ohms out at 350ohms...seems ok even though I have read 300-900 good and others say 600-1500 ?? Replaced ignition coil with another 1.5 ohm Petronix coil....that was not the problem.....like another member on here had with his orange module it seemed when I unplugged and plugged back in the 5pin harness spark would be back, leads me to believe the module is the bad guy here. So for trouble shooting purposes I picked up a low cost 4 pin GM HEI and wired it in as I have seen here on FABO, just to see if issues would go away......I could not get it to work period....got spark if you want to include backfiring, LOL.
 
Now for my questions....sorry for the long story above...just wanted to give you guys a picture of where things are at......is it possible my test with the HEI went sideways because of the higher resistance coil I used.....it was a Petronix oil filled 1.5 ohm....same that has been on this car for years now.....also is this coil a good choice to run with the orange box and a 1.2 ohm ballist resistor? Should I have used a lower resistance coil like a .32 ohm coil with the GM HEI ?
Second question would be while checking my distributor I found there is some play in the shaft which I'm sure could cause issues with the reluctor.....is any play here normal? And is it easily fixed? Car runs good pulls hard to 5500 rpm no problem when it runs.....idles a little rougher at times.....could the rougher idle be a symptom of the play in the shaft?
Thanks for any help and opinions.....will probably be sticking with the Ol' Mopar electronic ignition for now....just in case anyone feels compelled to ask....I know this is a hot topic in the Mopar circles!
Also just a weird note here the Mopar 5pin harness I bought from Jegs had the two pin connector for the distributor pickup on it backwards....found phasing was wrong....checked it against the old harness I removed and sure enough it was wrong.....has anyone else experienced this with replacement harnesses? Car fired right up once I rewired the plug and phasing was right.....then the intermittent gremlin came back!
 
macadoo1961 said:
I picked up a low cost 4 pin GM HEI and wired it in as I have seen here on FABO, just to see if issues would go away......I could not get it to work period....got spark if you want to include backfiring, LOL.
Click to expand...

So far as your orange box, you CAN NOT eliminate the ignition resistor......at least for street use

I would wire up the HEI "minimally" so you KNOW what you have wired, that is don't even hook it to the car harness until you confirm you actually have good spark

One of our good members here came up with this diagram

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The HEI module MUST be grounded through the mounting bolts, and the two pickup leads must be oriented according to the "small" terminal going to the BARE harness connector as pictured.

Hook power direct to the coil + with a jumper lead, crank the engine, and check for spark right at the top of the coil tower. Use a grounded screwdriver probe. Good hot sparks 3/8--1/2" long and maybe longer should result.

MAKE SURE that you have the brown and blue run wires hooked together from your ballast resistor. The "run" voltage goes DEAD when using the key to crank the engine. You MUST have the brown bypass (IGN 1) jumpered in.

Backfiring out the carb is usually an indicator you have the distributor off time
 
macadoo1961 said:
I found there is some play in the shaft which I'm sure could cause issues with the reluctor.....is any play here normal? And is it easily fixed? Car runs good pulls hard to 5500 rpm no problem when it runs.....idles a little rougher at times.....could the rougher idle be a symptom of the play in the shaft?
!
Click to expand...

Look in the service manuals. You can download them free at MyMopar. You need to download some later ones to get the electronic ignition, 73 is good year

There should be a procedure in there to check distributor shaft play. It is not very much. I have to say that if you can visibly move it, it's probably worn.

So far as coils, there is recommendations for coils for HEI "around the net" but on mine I use a stock factory coil, with HEI, and no resistor. It has held up just fine.
 
Thanks so much 67Dart273 for the tip where to get the service manuals I will check that out. Have no plans of going without ballast....have had local friends tell me otherwise, as for the GM HEI I did just temporary wire it in and used this exact diagram.....but my bad did not just check for spark I tried to run ...... Did prove to me with my orange module diconnected spark came back though, so tossed the HEI to one side and ordered another module. I did notice another member had a hand drawn diagram for the HEI that specified a .32 ohm coil as that's what GMs coil has for resistance, this made me assume a coil with 4 times the resistance would not work as mine was 1.5 ohms....hope my new orange module fixes this up, then I'll look into the distributor play. Ordered the new module last night and bang 12 hrs later here it is on my door step......says on box made in USA as well as stamped on the blue heat sink material.....maybe the heat sink is made in USA and guts are Chinise? Sticker on box had the Asin name too...they do OEM parts for Toyotas. Thanks again for the tip!
 
This is the other diagram I saw here on FABO....it's the only one that specified a resistance reading on the ignition coil......so much good info on this site! Does anyone have a HEI setup running a higher resistance coil than the .32 ohm ? I would like to keep the HEI for roadside emergencies if need be but its only useful to me if I get it to work right on my car.Also some info I read in a Flame Thrower HEI brochure stated not to use solid core ignition wires not sure why or how correct that is.....but right now more concerned with getting my car back on the road for some topless driving!!
 

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Near as I can tell, coils for HEI are not critical. Maybe that figure was minimum. I've seen guys used all sorts of coils with 'em. Even with a stock coil, you get more / hotter spark, because the HEI can modulate dwell time, and of course "no ballast."

Also, a "proper" (don't know about imports) HEI does NOT draw coil current with key on / engine stopped. This could save both a module and a coil.
 
Did you by any chance check the gap on the distributor pickup? Just trying to think out loud.
 
If your Orange box, or any OEM mopar ECU, does the one-spark test by cycling the key from on to off, then in my experience theres nothing wrong with the box or the ballast or the coil.The coil may not be correct, but the system is working.
Then the trigger circuit has to be proven.I forget the spec, but I seem to remember it being 350 ohms or so. If it passes, I move to the reluctor gap.
In my experience, the reluctor gap is better to be a little wide then a little too tight, especially if the dizzy bushing is a bit loose.I believe the gap-spec is about .008. I think they work up to .020 just fine, for test purposes.
After that, you have to prove its spinning with the cam, and not contacting the pick-up while doing that.

I have never experienced a mopar box pass the one-spark test, and yet be the cause of no-spark. Wont say it cant happen tho......

Stick with Del, he knows his stuff.
 
AJ/FormS said:
I have never experienced a mopar box pass the one-spark test, and yet be the cause of no-spark. Wont say it cant happen tho.......
Click to expand...

I didn't think so either, but a member here had an orange box go "weird trigger." I don't recall the details, but according to what he posted, his procedure sounded logical. He sent me the box, I was going to try and dissect it, but in trying to get the potting out, the pressure washer "washed away" what turned out to be paper caps LOL

Thanks for the vote of confindence, LOL
 
Thanks for all the info guys, not sure it's the module as you guys have mentioned but I have a new module to try, didn't break the bank so it's worth a try.....all else seems good other than the play at the distributor shaft & reluctor. Certainly could have been my firewall connector but that's all better than new now. One good thing that came out of my ignition problem is it lead me to fix my firewall plug and engine bay wiring..... That mess was sure to leave me at the side of the road one day. Sounds like my distributor is not the only one with some play in it but I think it needs to be addressed! Thanks again, I'll post the results of the new module soon.
 
So I put in the new orange module today, car fired up and idled in the driveway for 1/2hr without quitting, took it for a drive between rain drops.....so far no quitting or dead ignition. Seems like the module was the gremlin...won't trust the car until I get out for a few short rides. Everyone says these are made in China...as I mentioned box and part have made in USA on both.....does anyone know for sure they are Chinese?
Still will address the play in distributor in future, thanks for the input guys!
 

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I vote post #8. The distributor pickup is common to all setups. That assumes all the modules were grounded well and the HEI was connected correctly w/ twisted pickup wires.

Yes on the pickup connector. I bought 2 from rockauto some years ago. One gave me an erratic connection (tests spinning distributor by hand). I finally found that it had an incorrect "double bullet" connector. The male terminal was too short to reliably contact. They had used an applicance type, but the Mopar one is a bit different.
 
Orange boxes are known for a high failure rate. I myself like the Chrome box or the FBO box for the stock style unit.
The HEI mod is pretty slick and just damn fine IMO.

In reality, what ever works and keeps on working is what you want.
 
I quit using mopar boxes after 2 new orange boxes failed within 6 months. The old ones were fine if you can get one at a swap meet. I suggest you get a Wells or Autozone brand box and keep it in the glove box for a spare.
 
rumblefish360 said:
Orange boxes are known for a high failure rate. I myself like the Chrome box or the FBO box for the stock style unit.
The HEI mod is pretty slick and just damn fine IMO.

In reality, what ever works and keeps on working is what you want.
Click to expand...

I have read others on here preferring the chrome box too.....just plug and go, no changes to be made to timing or anything? Are the new chrome boxes ok or do they have a high failure rate like the new orange boxes? Thx!
 
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