Starter troubles

[stinkyfromage]

Hey guys I’m a bit of a newb so please bear with me. My starter is acting up, I need help identifying it. I’m fairly certain it’s the solenoid on top of the starter as it was sparking and when I give it a tap with a hammer the car will start. Should I go ahead and replace the whole starter or try to replace the solenoid only? Starter seems to work great when engaged. Thanks in advance.

 

[Rug_Trucker]

There is a relay on the fender. Try cleaning those nasty connections on the starter.

 

[Charrlie_S]

Where were the sparks coming from? You should not see any sparks from the solenoid, as it is sealed. That is a canadian starter Dan can give you better info.
@slantsixdan

 

[67Dart273]

Replace the starter mounted CONTACTOR. Technically that is not a solenoid. Those are a little bit special and will require a REAL parts man to get the right one. A generic Ford one WILL NOT WORK.

WHAT ARE YOU working on? Year, make and model

Echlin (NAPA) ST-80 may be the one you want

 

[stinkyfromage]

Where were the sparks coming from? You should not see any sparks from the solenoid, as it is sealed. That is a canadian starter Dan can give you better info.
@slantsixdan

Im starting to suspect the wires/terminals as the culprit. It was sparking off the solenoid, I thought maybe the housing was cracked but I can’t see any issues. After adjusting the wires/terminals on the solenoid the car starts right away so I will be putting new connectors on.

 

[Charrlie_S]

Im starting to suspect the wires/terminals as the culprit. It was sparking off the solenoid, I thought maybe the housing was cracked but I can’t see any issues. After adjusting the wires/terminals on the solenoid the car starts right away so I will be putting new connectors on.

That's sounds like what I thought. It sounded more like a bad connection.

 

[stinkyfromage]

Replace the starter mounted CONTACTOR. Technically that is not a solenoid. Those are a little bit special and will require a REAL parts man to get the right one. A generic Ford one WILL NOT WORK.

WHAT ARE YOU working on? Year, make and model

Echlin (NAPA) ST-80 may be the one you want

It’s a 1966 Canadian Valiant with a 225. Not sure about the history of the engine as it was replaced prior to my ownership.

 

[slantsixdan]

There is a relay on the fender. Try cleaning those nasty connections on the starter.

There isn't a relay on the fender, no. This is a Canadian car. The ignition switch directly triggers that solenoid perched atop the starter.

OP: keep that starter. Have it rebuilt if it ever winds up needing it, but replacing it is very difficult. Parts stores (online and in person) will give you an incorrect, incompatible starter every single time, and if you hand over your present starter as a core, you are hosed. Info here.

 

[dadsbee]

If you do need it rebuilt, we still have a guy up here in Midland that does just that!

 

[Charrlie_S]

There isn't a relay on the fender, no. This is a Canadian car. The ignition switch directly triggers that solenoid perched atop the starter.

OP: keep that starter. Have it rebuilt if it ever winds up needing it, but replacing it is very difficult. Parts stores (online and in person) will give you an incorrect, incompatible starter every single time, and if you hand over your present starter as a core, you are hosed. Info here.

Thanks Dan, I didn't think there was a relay, but I can never just exactly about the Canadian cars.

 

[slantsixdan]

Technically, it's a solenoid-actuated contactor. Nobody who speaks English on this planet calls them that. If you go poring over catalogs looking for a "contactor" for your car, or a "solenoid-actuated contactor", you're going to find nothing. You'll get blank stares if you ask anyone at a parts store. Everyone calls them solenoids. That's perfectly correct, because solenoid means an electromagnet made of a coil of wire much longer than the coil's diameter—that's all. There is no requirement that the device has to pull a starter drive into engagement with a ring gear in order for the device to be called a solenoid.

It's clear from your pic that the terminals on your solenoid's trigger wires were dodgy and in need of replacement. Sounds like you've done so, and that's probably the end of the problem. If you should eventually decide to replace the solenoid, there are many different ones that will work with some adaptation. The Echlin ST-80 is not one of those, because it has only one trigger terminal; the other side of the coil is case-grounded. That's appropriate for a car with a manual transmission and no clutch-starter interlock switch, but it's wrong for your automatic car. Also, it has the wrong bracket (flat instead of curved) and the wrong kind of terminal (threaded stud instead of 1/4" spade). The correct replacement — curved bracket, two spade trigger terminals — is Standard SS-577, Echlin ST-77, or Chrysler (Mopar, Chryco) 2095 330 or 2095 625.

 

[Bewy]

It is actually a relay. it is a relay because when a current is applied to it, it connects one or more pairs of contacts....& does nothing else. A solenoid has a plunger or actuator that does something mechanical, such as engage a pinion gear.

 

[slantsixdan]

A solenoid has a plunger or actuator that does something mechanical, such as engage a pinion gear.

No. It really doesn't have to do anything mechanical in order to be called a solenoid; that's not part of the definition. Go read the link in post 11 of this thread.

"Contactor" is a word for a heavy-duty/high-current relay. So yes, "relay" is technically another correct word for the device in question. But…everyone calls this kind of device a solenoid, which — in addition to being technically flawless — has the added benefit of being the word everyone uses for this kind of device.

Pre-'67 Canadian-built Slant-6 cars do not have starter relays, but they do have starter solenoids.