Steering All Over the Place at 55mph+

-
67Mungo

67Mungo

FABO Gold Member
FABO Gold Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2021
Messages
31
Reaction score
25
Location
Frisco, TX
Fellow A Body Folks... I have a 67 Barracuda and somewhere along the line it was converted to front discs. From installing new ball joints, tie rod ends, calipers, and discs it would seem that the upper control arm and upper/lower ball joints are from an E Body, the brake system from an M Body, and no idea about the spindle. The front wheelbase is slightly wider than the rear (rear is an 8-1/4 no clue what donated it). Not sure if it's an important variable but was originally a slant 6 car and now a 340. It is a power steering car. Ball joints, tie rod ends, and shocks have all been replaced and had it aligned (sorry the alignment report was lost along the way) at a chain tire shop. Tires are new 205/70 14's.

THE PROBLEM... since I've had it I've basically kept it under 55mph. I did notice if I do a sudden lane change it feels like I'm going to lose control. If you wobble the steering a wheel roughly a 1/4" either way it's pretty non-responsive. This last weekend I took it on an hour long cruise on the highway and was terrified at 65-70 mph. The best way to describe it was it felt like if I made any turn at at all (as simple a merging into another lane) I was going to lose control like it was going to twist (best words o can think to describe it). Even worse when hitting bumps or uneven pavement I thought that was the end for me and struggled to keep it in my lane.

In the forum's opinion can this simply be bad alignment? Can this be from the wider front wheelbase? I thought maybe I was the problem as this was the first non-rack and pinion car I've driven but others in my local Mopar club say that's not normal and are very comfortable doing 70mph. Any help or insight would be appreciated! Would love to go to shows a little further from home but no way I'm getting back on the freeway until this gets figured out. Thanks!
 
Being that it’s a 67’ it has the one year only problematic idler arm. I would start there if you don’t know the history of it. PST and other venders sell them.

Idler Arm
 
What tires are you running? If all the suspension parts are good and tight. You most likely have an alignment problem. From the sounds of it, the car wonders when hitting bumps and slight steering input. If the car is has radial tires (most likely) the car has bias ply alignment specs if it was taken to a run of the mill shop that does alignment based off of book spec. @72bluNblu talks a lot about suspension setup. Look up his posts.
 
The "chain" style alignment shops rarely have alignment techs that know how to align an older car properly. The factory specs for old cars are what they go by but those specs are not right for today's tires. I suspect that they didn't dial in enough CASTER. Caster provides stability by making the wheels want to keep the car going in a straight line.
Unfortunately, you have to be clear and tell them what you want instead of letting them align the car to factory specs.
Always ask for as much caster as possible. Some cars may not be able to get more than 2 degrees. Never settle for less than 1 degree or the feeling that you describe will surely be the result.
Maximum caster. 1/2 to 3/4 degree of Negative camber and 1/8" toe in.
My Charger has offset upper control arm bushings and was aligned to 5 degrees Positive caster left, 5.5 right. It tracks straight and is extremely stable at freeway speeds.
Good luck.
 
Scody21 said:
What tires are you running? If all the suspension parts are good and tight. You most likely have an alignment problem. From the sounds of it, the car wonders when hitting bumps and slight steering input. If the car is has radial tires (most likely) the car has bias ply alignment specs if it was taken to a run of the mill shop that does alignment based off of book spec. @72bluNblu talks a lot about suspension setup. Look up his posts.
Click to expand...
Brand new BF Goodrich Radial T/A. Thanks for the tip and will check out 72bleNblu.
 
67Mungo said:
it would seem that the upper control arm and upper/lower ball joints are from an E Body, the brake system from an M Body, and no idea about the spindle
Click to expand...
Sounds like you need to determine the parts you have.

If you have E body parts your suspension geometry is off and can induce all kinds of bad behavior.

I can drive my 67 dart at 70 and it is responsive and stable.
 
Anther thing to check is the steering coupler at the box. These wear out over time but can be rebuilt. Its a simple test, with the engine off and car sitting, just have someone turn the wheel left to right and watch the steering column shaft and coupler. Some are so bad you can grab them and feel the looseness by hand.
 
The spacing of the upper control arm mounts for an A body are narrower than a B or E body so no B/E body upper control arm would fit an A body car.
The 1973-76 front disc A body cars used an upper control arm with a larger ball joint that was the same unit used on all B and E body cars.
When doing a front disc swap into a front drum A body, the 73-76 disc upper control arms are needed. The geometry is the same between the drum and disc upper control arms.
Yes, the 1967 models were the last to use the inferior idler arm mount. 1968 was the start of the improved design but usually, a bad idler arm is mostly a problem in terms of precise steering. Unstable steering can often be blamed on bent parts or a lack of caster.
 
As Kern Dog said there’s no way you’ve got E-body upper control arms on there, the mounting dimensions are very different.

If F/J/M spindles were used you have the later 73+ A-body large ball joint UCA’s, or small joint stuff with spacers.

More than likely you’ve got factory alignment specs, which means you’ve got no caster at all (or even negative caster!!!) which will make it feel like driving a shopping cart with radial tires. If that’s the case, you need to get it re-aligned. This is a good place to start…

A4B3F3BF-AE55-4126-9883-90AF4C3A9547.jpeg


“Typ. Perf street” is the minimum I’d ever run, but if you have stock UCA’s and non-offset bushings it may be more than you can get for caster.

And yeah, idler and steering joint would be other things to check. You will also want to check the condition of the lower control arms bushings and strut rod bushings. The LCA bushings are often skipped even when other stuff is replaced because the stock parts are more difficult to R&R than the other components.

Another thing to check is the K member for cracks. The factory welds were lousy and steering box mount cracks are not uncommon. Same for the LCA pivot mount breaking loose.

But with an alignment done at a chain alignment shop, it probably was just set to factory specs with no caster
 
Kern Dog said:
The spacing of the upper control arm mounts for an A body are narrower than a B or E body so no B/E body upper control arm would fit an A body car.
The 1973-76 front disc A body cars used an upper control arm with a larger ball joint that was the same unit used on all B and E body cars.
When doing a front disc swap into a front drum A body, the 73-76 disc upper control arms are needed. The geometry is the same between the drum and disc upper control arms.
Yes, the 1967 models were the last to use the inferior idler arm mount. 1968 was the start of the improved design but usually, a bad idler arm is mostly a problem in terms of precise steering. Unstable steering can often be blamed on bent parts or a lack of caster.
Click to expand...
Thanks Kern Dog! My ignorance there. Part number/cross reference for the upper and lower ball joints were the same as the E-Body so I just assumed (incorrectly). Great to know!
 
Buy a 68-72 K-member and get rid of that unsafe 67 Idler arm. Grab a PST rubber style rebuild kit for 68-72 year . You will need to use a 73 and newer upper ball joints, Your car has 73 a-body upper control arms unless they used adapters on the early style small ball joints. E-body and B-body will not fit the car. Who knows maybe they didn't use the adapters and the ball joints are wobbling it the spindles. Needless to say I would fix it before you crash it.
 
Oldmanmopar said:
Buy a 68-72 K-member and get rid of that unsafe 67 Idler arm. Grab a PST rubber style rebuild kit for 68-72 year . You will need to use a 73 and newer upper ball joints, Your car has 73 a-body upper control arms unless they used adapters on the early style small ball joints. E-body and B-body will not fit the car. Who knows maybe they didn't use the adapters and the ball joints are wobbling it the spindles. Needless to say I would fix it before you crash it.
Click to expand...
Thanks OldManMopar. They are definitely the 73+ ball joints as I put them in myself. Originally I ordered them for a 67 and that's when I discovered the suspension was something newer and found the 73 e body ball joints fit. This is probably for another thread, but if it was originally a slant six car would they have had to put a new k member in to accommodate the 340? If so would that require a new steering system? Any way to tell the 67 idler arm vs 68/69 and would it fit right up? My apologies as I'm not a pro at this like y'all on the thread! I enjoy doing the work but have more questions than answers and genuinely appreciate everyone taking time to explain these things to me!
 
67Mungo said:
Thanks OldManMopar. They are definitely the 73+ ball joints as I put them in myself. Originally I ordered them for a 67 and that's when I discovered the suspension was something newer and found the 73 e body ball joints fit. This is probably for another thread, but if it was originally a slant six car would they have had to put a new k member in to accommodate the 340? If so would that require a new steering system? Any way to tell the 67 idler arm vs 68/69 and would it fit right up? My apologies as I'm not a pro at this like y'all on the thread! I enjoy doing the work but have more questions than answers and genuinely appreciate everyone taking time to explain these things to me!
Click to expand...
they wouldn't necessarily have swapped the K because there are conversion mounts available for /6=>SB and if they did swap the K it would more than likely been to the 73~76 style. regardless, the steering is all the same-- caveat being the 67 only idler arm.

so i'd hazard a guess that they just swapped the UCA's and spindles and left everything else alone.

while the 67 is "bayonet mount" there's nothing inherently dangerous about it. not ideal from a performance stand point and the idler's are expensive though. you can't just swap them, though. the connection/mount is entirely differen. post up some pics and we'd be able to tell you what you've got.

like others have said, get a *good* alignment and then assess the situation from there.
 
If you are good at fabrication you can also rework the 67 K to take a 68/ later idler, but you damn near need a 68/ later for a pattern

So far as the wander, I'd get a pal and start from the top and work carefully down. Do not assume ANYTHING, and especially just because 'it was replaced.' Have a pal wiggle the play in the wheel while you look. Look everyplace there is a bolt, component, bearing, shaft, coupling, tie rod end, coupling or ball joint. Look for unwanted play and movement in everything that is supposed to move, and unwanted movement in everything that is NOT supposed to move. Bear in mind you might have a rusted/ weak/ cracked frame horn, K member, or the steering box loose on it's mounting bolts.

So far as alignment, you can do that yourself with very little special equipment.
 
Kern Dog said:
The "chain" style alignment shops rarely have alignment techs that know how to align an older car properly. The factory specs for old cars are what they go by but those specs are not right for today's tires. I suspect that they didn't dial in enough CASTER. Caster provides stability by making the wheels want to keep the car going in a straight line.
Unfortunately, you have to be clear and tell them what you want instead of letting them align the car to factory specs.
Always ask for as much caster as possible. Some cars may not be able to get more than 2 degrees. Never settle for less than 1 degree or the feeling that you describe will surely be the result.
Maximum caster. 1/2 to 3/4 degree of Negative camber and 1/8" toe in.
My Charger has offset upper control arm bushings and was aligned to 5 degrees Positive caster left, 5.5 right. It tracks straight and is extremely stable at freeway speeds.
Good luck.
Click to expand...
Where do you get offset upper control arm bushings?
 
92b said:
Where do you get offset upper control arm bushings?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure I would anymore. Moog makes them......or rather whomever Moog has sold out to. Like WIX filters, MOOG has gone global now, so you don't know if you're getting parts made in USA, China, Bangladesh, Indonesia or wherever and the quality is less than sub par now. As expensive a proposition as it is, I think the best option for more caster now comes from aftermarket upper control arms.
 
67Mungo said:
Fellow A Body Folks... I have a 67 Barracuda and somewhere along the line it was converted to front discs. From installing new ball joints, tie rod ends, calipers, and discs it would seem that the upper control arm and upper/lower ball joints are from an E Body, the brake system from an M Body, and no idea about the spindle. The front wheelbase is slightly wider than the rear (rear is an 8-1/4 no clue what donated it). Not sure if it's an important variable but was originally a slant 6 car and now a 340. It is a power steering car. Ball joints, tie rod ends, and shocks have all been replaced and had it aligned (sorry the alignment report was lost along the way) at a chain tire shop. Tires are new 205/70 14's.

THE PROBLEM... since I've had it I've basically kept it under 55mph. I did notice if I do a sudden lane change it feels like I'm going to lose control. If you wobble the steering a wheel roughly a 1/4" either way it's pretty non-responsive. This last weekend I took it on an hour long cruise on the highway and was terrified at 65-70 mph. The best way to describe it was it felt like if I made any turn at at all (as simple a merging into another lane) I was going to lose control like it was going to twist (best words o can think to describe it). Even worse when hitting bumps or uneven pavement I thought that was the end for me and struggled to keep it in my lane.

In the forum's opinion can this simply be bad alignment? Can this be from the wider front wheelbase? I thought maybe I was the problem as this was the first non-rack and pinion car I've driven but others in my local Mopar club say that's not normal and are very comfortable doing 70mph. Any help or insight would be appreciated! Would love to go to shows a little further from home but no way I'm getting back on the freeway until this gets figured out. Thanks!
Click to expand...
If you know what you are doing, check out the components, replace what's bad and have a proper alignment done. If you don't feel comfortable doing that, take it to a reputable alignment shop and have them diagnose, repair, and align properly.
 
Check the tubes where the lower control arms mount in the K-frame, and make sure that the welds aren't busted out.

Also, check the rear suspension. The tail can wag the dog. A loose set of U-bolts, missing leaf spring bushing, or even a bad rear shock can cause what you describe.

You can adjust the play in the steering box, and if it doesn't tighten up any....then you know it's got to get impeached.

In any case, a GOOD alignment shop will catch any of the above maladies.
On second thought, you should probably check for them yourself.

Don't jump into a pile of aftermarket parts to shotgun-solve the problem; there is clearly something wrong. Dress it up after you diagnose it, or you could magnify your problems or worse: Waste money. Even dead stock, with a modern alignment spec, it should handle just fine at triple-digit speeds. I used to think I needed all the race-car gizmos, and then I drove one that was correct and proper, and all of a sudden, it was good enough.
 
It's easy to visually spot a 67 bayonet style idler. Only one tab coming off the K.
The 68 and newer use double shear mounting with a top and bottom plate coming off the K member.

With the A-body migrating from economy car in 1960 to a bigger sometimes performance car, they made things right. (Too bad they didn't go to the Big Bolt Pattern in 67)

Maybe @mosleyme will be kind enough to help you out. He's in Plano.
 
67Mungo said:
Fellow A Body Folks... I have a 67 Barracuda and somewhere along the line it was converted to front discs. From installing new ball joints, tie rod ends, calipers, and discs it would seem that the upper control arm and upper/lower ball joints are from an E Body, the brake system from an M Body, and no idea about the spindle. The front wheelbase is slightly wider than the rear (rear is an 8-1/4 no clue what donated it). Not sure if it's an important variable but was originally a slant 6 car and now a 340. It is a power steering car. Ball joints, tie rod ends, and shocks have all been replaced and had it aligned (sorry the alignment report was lost along the way) at a chain tire shop. Tires are new 205/70 14's.

THE PROBLEM... since I've had it I've basically kept it under 55mph. I did notice if I do a sudden lane change it feels like I'm going to lose control. If you wobble the steering a wheel roughly a 1/4" either way it's pretty non-responsive. This last weekend I took it on an hour long cruise on the highway and was terrified at 65-70 mph. The best way to describe it was it felt like if I made any turn at at all (as simple a merging into another lane) I was going to lose control like it was going to twist (best words o can think to describe it). Even worse when hitting bumps or uneven pavement I thought that was the end for me and struggled to keep it in my lane.

In the forum's opinion can this simply be bad alignment? Can this be from the wider front wheelbase? I thought maybe I was the problem as this was the first non-rack and pinion car I've driven but others in my local Mopar club say that's not normal and are very comfortable doing 70mph. Any help or insight would be appreciated! Would love to go to shows a little further from home but no way I'm getting back on the freeway until this gets figured out. Thanks!
Click to expand...

A lot of good info so far, but I can add a little.
When I first got my Dart it would darn near change lanes if I hit one of those reflectors in the road, and the feel of the car overall was exactly like you described.
Scary huh?

My problems were caused by badly worn lower control arm bushings.
Once I replaced those and aligned it with more caster it smoothed right out and got WAY more stable.
I commonly run 80-90 on the more open freeways now with total confidence.

Some already mentioned steering and suspension parts, but since I went through the exact same thing you described, I thought I would tell you.
 
Just wanted to note that the steering linkage (idler, pitman arm, centerlink, gear box) are different on 73+.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top