Stock pistons, .005 over file fit rings?

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gregsdart

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Since I have to rering the 5.9 Magnum motor I am rebuilding for my street car, I would like to hear of any improvements in power gained by using file fit rings to custom fit the end gaps, rather than use standard rings. The cylinder bores show cross hatch on all sides of each cylinder, so despite the 157,000 miles, and large amount of sludge in the motor, only a touchup hone will be done with a dickey ball type hone, if possible.
This motor is getting EQ heads, a performance cam, airgap intake, headers, and will only see about 6,000 rpm max. What do you think? I am thinking of a rebuild kit, and buying just the top ring set in 4.005 for this deal.
 
Makes sure you get the ring gap right!!!! Broken piston if you don't!!!!!!!!
 
Side clearance .002 to a tight .003, specified gap for hyper pistons, .0045 per inch, or .018 top, will go .020 second. I was hoping someone had seen actual comparisons, stock type to .005 over. I have no idea how much end gap a standard ring set would have at 4.000, or no wear . If there were any wear, it would be a no brainer, as the end gap would be .00314 bigger per.001 bore wear.
I checked the end gap on the original top rings. It was a whoping .038! But as I mentioned earlier, cross hatch is still there, and no ridge in the bores what so ever.
 
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Is that side clearance you just gave the spec, or what you measured on the old rings?

I am not sure anyone can answer your question because we don't know how worn your bores really are and how much you will hone out, and so can't guess how open the gap will actually be with standard rings. FWIW.... I've had standard oversized rings sets in fresh matched oversized bores that I had to file to fit.
 
I measured all eight piston top ring side clearances, .003 being the biggest with the old rings. I might as well buy a rering and bearing kit, and see what it works out to.
 
Hard to believe with 157,000 on it and it doesn't have some taper. Measure the bores carefully, It probably needs a overbore.
 
I have two magnum blocks here that have almost zero taper and both are well over 100k... now the 5.2 that is in my Ram and has been run dry of oil twice? Probably not...
 
Performance cam limited to 6000.
If you are gonna limit the RPM, then you might as well chose a cam to make the best of it. And if you do that, then you will have to carefully match the Dcr to it.
A streeter usually runs gears of no more than 3.55s Which will not get to 65 mph in first gear by 6000. That means a shift will be required. If you are running a 904/727 then the shift into second will drop the rpm down to 59% or about 3540rpm. That performance cam, that you want to shift at 6000 will have a power-peak at about 5200. This is a very nice torquey streetcam. It will hit 6000 at about 52mph with 26.5s and 5% TC slip.
Of course, you could get a cam that power-peaks at 6000, but a cam like that will not like 3.55s nor will it like the factory TC. But if you give it what it wants, it will get to the finish line quicker.A 6000rpm power-peak is a mighty big cam. With a 904/727 it will want to be shifted into second at probably over 7000. Your Magnum would need to have an oiling system upgrade to survive that.
Getting back to the 5200 cam; this cam will pull 3.23s easily enough.The new top speed in first will be 55mph. The starter gear will be a little soft at 7.91, so an upgrade to the TC will get you off the line quicker.
Also,of course, you could get any cam in between 5200 and 6000, but IMO, you will just be trading away low rpm power for a few ponies up top.And each cam will require a compression upgrade and or a TC upgrade.And each bigger than 5200 will want to be shifted at a higher rpm, and if you limit them to 6000 then the performance may actually suffer.
What this all boils down to is this; When choosing a cam, try not to get greedy.The numbers on paper are very deceiving. I mean 276 intake duration is only 6 degrees bigger than 270. But these two cams are world's apart in what they require in support works.
And if you don't care about your zero to 55 mph ET, then; I'm sorry to have wasted your time.

But in any case, you kindof need to keep one eye on the Dcr at all times.For a performance street machine, it needs to be as high as possible, yet not so high as to be in detonation all the time.
In a stock Magnum, the pistons are quite far down in the hole, so this should be factored in, cuz if you overcam it, you will end up either pulling the cam out,or band-aiding it with a much bigger TC and probably gears too, or just being sad all the time.

On another note
If the bores are round and without taper, then you are good to go.This is very important. Round and not tapered.
Keep in mind that each bore change of just .001 will change the ring gap by .0031416.So when the piston is going up and down, the rings will be expanding and contracting, and scrubbing in the grooves.
.003 taper will change the gaps by .00942. So your file-fits will be worthless, cuz you kindof have to make sure they have room at the bottom of the bore to not slam shut.Then when the piston comes to the top, the ring-gaps open up and away goes your compression.
So, I know you said the crosshatching is still in there, and I have seen the same on an engine with even more mileage. But I would still run a dial-bore gauge up and down the holes.
 
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Well, time to eat a little crow. Dial bore readings were looking acceptable, less than .001, till I checked the very top of the ring travel. #1 cylinder was .0018 right at the top of the top ring travel. It drops to about .001 real quick. So, It is going to get a small overbore and file fit rings. Since I have to change pistons, I might as well have the rods resized and good bolts put in. Funny how the best laid plans of mice and men go arye. Please pass the cheese!
 
So you are talking .0008" taper, or .0018" taper? .0008" is not bad taper at all; .0018" taper is getting up to my personal limit. Now .008" taper WOULD be darned bad.

A ring gap opening up .003-.004" at the top of the bore is not gonna show up on the street; that is around the tolerance on a new gap anyway. I am more concerned about taper effecting the overall ring seal being effected than the gap.
 
I use file-to-fit on re-used stock stuff. I set the end gaps at the bottoms of the bores away from any wear or taper. I also add .002"/inch on the 2nd ring.
 
The taper is a true .0018 at the very top, but drops to .001 only about .200 down the bore. I would need to have the ridge reamed out anyway I figure, so for the price of a set of replacement speed pros, ($176?) plus rebuilding the rods, and an overbore, It will last a lot longer I would think. Wear accelerates much faster as the clearances get a little over stock. Most all of what I have done building engines has been well built race motors, and it is hard to put something together that isn't spot on.
 
And actually, I don't bother anymore without fresh bores. Pretty much the same reasons....make it work its best after all the bother. I rebuilt a FOrd 292 back in the day when I was poor college student and had to leave a coupla bores with .008" taper.... it didn't run all that smoothly, but at least all cylinders made SOME contribution to the overall effort; the weak ones at least powered themselves....LOL
 
My feeling is I can control the resulting gap better with them. That's the value of the extra cost. If it's a real low budget deal I may not even measure the bores. If pistons and the associated machining operations are not in the budget all it's going to do is make me feel worse about not doing the job properly so why bother? At that point the user has accepted it will not last long term anyway. Not every build can be a true high performance build.
 
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