Sudden loss of pedal

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fnaramore

POWEEERRRRRR
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So this one has me scratching my head a bit. Had my car on jack-stands for about a week while I got new tires put on my wheels and replaced the rear shoes and drums. Now that shes back on all fours, there's basically no pedal. Putting it to the floor will stop it from rolling in neutral but not much past that. Master is still full of fluid, I went through all the lines and haven't spotted any leaks and the shoes have been adjusted so there's a slight drag. Any suggestions or ideas as to what it could be would be very appreciated! It is a 73 Dart with front disc and rear drums.
 
Did you adjust the rear shoes so they start contacting the drum immediately? They could be way out of adjustment.
 
Thats what I meant by giving them a slight drag. Have them set now so if you just spin the wheel, itll rotate smoothly but you can hear the shoes rubbing on the drums a tad.
 
Thats what I meant by giving them a slight drag. Have them set now so if you just spin the wheel, itll rotate smoothly but you can hear the shoes rubbing on the drums a tad.
Since you didn’t do fronts or open any lines I would re-check the back shoe adjustment again. See if you can pull the drums off easily, check shoe orientation/ wheel cyl. engagement. If all checks out, add some more drag to the shoes and see if the pedal comes back any. I suppose the master cylinder could have gone bad with out a related problem. Real head scratcher.
 
Yeah I'm currently waiting on my second pair of eyes to get home to check wheel cyl. engagement. I took photos of everything prior to doing the swap so I know everything went back as it was. Forgive my ignorance, but I thought the stock master was dual cylinder? So shouldn't the front discs still be working?
 
The way to adjust drum brakes is, make sure the E-brake works and the lever is all the way back, then adjust them up tight as you can and then back them off till the wheel turns. If you just adjust them while turning the wheel and hear them drag then it's probably just one shoe hitting and there not adjusted correctly.
 
Not a great way to adjust them with the drum/wheel on due to that they are self-adjusting. If they were regular adjusters I'd just do them like I do 356's. Crank them till they cant turn to make sure the shoes are seated and then back them off till it turns well.
 
Not a great way to adjust them with the drum/wheel on due to that they are self-adjusting. If they were regular adjusters I'd just do them like I do 356's. Crank them till they cant turn to make sure the shoes are seated and then back them off till it turns well.

With new drums I like to adjust till I can almost not get the drum on, then set the E brake and release it.
Then check them again.
The E brake will set and center the shoes just as well as stepping on the brake pedal.

The answer to your original question is probably air, because 99% of the time that's what it is.
Air can get by wheel cylinder seals when there isn't any pressure on them.
You need to bleed the right rear first, and then the left rear.
 
UPDATE: I adjusted the shoes to the point that its almost a two man job getting the drums on. We checked the wheel cylinders, if you just depress the pedal, nothing. If you start pumping it they will start engaging. Regardless the pedal still feels really damn soft. Ill do the e-brake thing tomorrow when I have the time and then readjust them. If still nothing, bleeding it is!
 
UPDATE: I adjusted the shoes to the point that its almost a two man job getting the drums on. We checked the wheel cylinders, if you just depress the pedal, nothing. If you start pumping it they will start engaging. Regardless the pedal still feels really damn soft. Ill do the e-brake thing tomorrow when I have the time and then readjust them. If still nothing, bleeding it is!


This indicates you have two problems maybe three
First check your plumbing of the M/C. If an oem dual reservoir system, the rearmost reservoir should be feeding the front brakes. The line should go to the top end of the Combination switch, and then immediately branch off to the left and right calipers.
Now to understand what's going on, you have to know what's going on inside the M/C. It has two modes of operation; normal, and emergency.
Inside the M/C are two pistons. The rearmost operating the front brakes, and the frontmost operating the rear brakes.
In Normal mode, there will be a fluid filled chamber between them, and when you step on the pedal, they all work together, pushing fluid out to the slaves, the front piston being pushed along by the fluid trapped between them in a hydraulic lock.
Now that rearmost piston has a protruding pin on the front end, so that if a failure occurs in the front brakes, that protrusion will now slide forward, and butt up against the front piston, and operate the rear system. In doing so, the brake pedal will drop down a couple of inches. But if the rear brakes are seriously out of adjustment.... the pedal may end up on the floor.
Now, you also need to know that the first 1/2 inch or so of pedal travel is used to operate the compensating ports. These are the little holes you see in the bottom of the chambers. Through these, compensation is provided for the wearing of the parts, and the fluid returns back into the chambers, to prevent the continual dropping of the pedal, making the front brakes self-adjusting.

Now let's get to your problem
You provided two very big clues. You said that after several pumps, the pedal came up and some braking occurred. This tells me three things:
1) the compensating ports are working. I know this because in rapid stroking, the fluid does not have time to return thru those little tiny holes
2) Uou did not say that once you had done this, that the pedal began to drop, while you had pressure on the pedal. This tells me that the M/C is OK, and there are no leaks in the system
3) You said the pedal was real damn soft. You did not say spongy. The soft pedal is usually a pointer to a mechanical issue. A spongy descriptor usually points to a hydraulic issue.

so now we need a plan of action
And the first thing I want to know is if the brake fluid is in the chamber between the M/C pistons. And the only way to prove that is to bench bleed the damn M/C. Well there is another way but it takes longer and is much more labor intensive. I'll tell you anyway.
You get all 4 wheels off. Then pop the front calipers off and C-clamp the pistons into the bottom of the bores. Guess what you just did? You pushed all the fluid in the front system back up into the M/C, and forced any air with it that might have been hanging around up near the port. Leave the clamps on.
Then you remove the drums And all the rear brake parts, including the rubber cups at the wc's. Then you C-clamp those pistons in there.
Finally you go step on the pedal. You should have a hi, rock-hard pedal...... because nothing can move. If the pedal is otherwise, now you have proved there is air in the system. If the pedal falls while the pressure is on, you have proved the M/C is bad, or rather one or more of the rubber cups inside are. This test is absolute.
If you do this test, and determine that air is still in there, the first place I would look is in that inter-piston region, which requires a bench-bleed.
See what I mean? a lotta labor to just do the bench-bleed anyway.
The bench-bleed is usually considered a no-brainer procedure. But that is far from the case. So take your time and do it right.
Then reinstall it, bleed the connections, and retest for a hard hi pedal.
..... Now there is one exception, and that is if the system was working fine, before you changed the shoes. That pretty much precludes a hydraulic issue, and that takes us back to what you said, namely "pretty damn soft", and my conclusion that this is a mechanical issue.
Then
assuming the shoes are the correct width for the backing plates and the right diameter for the drums, and the parking brake was backed off before trying to adjust the brakes......
Wait
You did back off the parking brake right?
 
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Sounds like the master cylinder has failed to ME. If you decide to replace it, buy new--not rebuilt...
 
Yeah my only guess is closing the rear wheel cylinders pushed some contamination backward into the master cylinder spool valve and screwed it up. We are better advised to open the bleeders and spill a little fluid to close the cylinders but nobody does that. We'll commonly push a lot more fluid backward at disc calipers. Chit happens. How nasty the fluid in your reservoir appears may be a clue.
 
Anything is possible, but sitting for a week and replacing only the rear brakes is going to be air in it, and not contamination or failed parts.
There isn't chance in hell I would do, or even consider anything else at this point except make sure it's bled.
 
First off I greatly appreciate all the responses! To answer a couple questions.

The system was working perfectly fine prior to me doing this brake work. Id be surprised if the MC suddenly failed, but I've seen crazier to be fair

I did not back off the E-brake adjustment. I honestly did not even realize that was something to do prior to adjusting shoes. I've always adjusted shoes, then adjusted the E-brake.

I believe TrailBeast hit it on the head though that the logical first step is bleeding. However, I figure if I got to bleed, might as well give her new wheel cylinders while I am at it.
 
Shoes arent adjusted.
E brake is partially applied
If wheel cylinders werent replaced there should be no air.

Had a ford thad did something similar. Adjust,cycle brake pedal,adjust. On stands in neutral. As mentioned to crank adjusters with drums on, until wheel is tight then back off.

Master cylinders that fail while parked usually leak. Same for wheel cyls.
 
First off I greatly appreciate all the responses! To answer a couple questions.

The system was working perfectly fine prior to me doing this brake work. Id be surprised if the MC suddenly failed, but I've seen crazier to be fair

I did not back off the E-brake adjustment. I honestly did not even realize that was something to do prior to adjusting shoes. I've always adjusted shoes, then adjusted the E-brake.

I believe TrailBeast hit it on the head though that the logical first step is bleeding. However, I figure if I got to bleed, might as well give her new wheel cylinders while I am at it.


I have seen it over and over, the brakes work great till!
Now the master is old and had garbage in it where the piston does not travel, after the brake job it wasn't adjusted correctly and the pedal went further down forcing the piston over the garbage and destroying the piston cup! now you will never get a pedal till you replace the master cyl.
 
I have seen it over and over, the brakes work great till!
Now the master is old and had garbage in it where the piston does not travel, after the brake job it wasn't adjusted correctly and the pedal went further down forcing the piston over the garbage and destroying the piston cup! now you will never get a pedal till you replace the master cyl.
That happened to me when the rubber hose over differential failed. Replaced the hose and then ordered a new master cylinder the following day.
 
I have seen it over and over, the brakes work great till!
Now the master is old and had garbage in it where the piston does not travel, after the brake job it wasn't adjusted correctly and the pedal went further down forcing the piston over the garbage and destroying the piston cup! now you will never get a pedal till you replace the master cyl.

This is why you are not supposed to push the pedal down more than it's normal travel when bleeding. :D
I don't follow that advice because if there is that much junk in the master I want to disassemble and clean or replace anyway.

Everyone likes to tell a person every possible problem that has ever happened instead of a clear line of diagnosis and solutions based on their current symptoms.

Your scenario is very common, but I still wouldn't go replacing the master until I was sure the system was air free.
Otherwise ya got a bunch of brand new crap that still won't stop the car.
 
The air drawn into system is iffy at best.
But as a good course of action opening the bleeders and checking for air wouldnt hurt. Also,if fluid is clear.

The fact remains you changed the rear brakes. If all parts replaced were correct and adjusted correctly,then we wouldnt be having this discussion.
 
Well it is all kinda irrelevant now. Some parts I've been waiting to sell just did so I'm just gonna use that money to re-line the whole car, replace the master and the wheel cylinders. So my new question at hand is does anyone by chance new a 73 Darts MC bore diameter?

...however... I am now partially tempted to fix the problem first anyways to discern exactly what the problem was just for closure on this question.
 
Just gravity bleed it first. Open the rr bleeder first, take the cap off the master and let the fluid flow, keep the master full don't let it go empty then do the lr, rf, lf and see if that fixes it, use a qt of fluid for all 4 wheels.
 
The fact remains
That if the E-brake was not backed off, then OP will never get a hard pedal, because the cable is acting like a big rubber band .And until the rear works properly, the front cannot work properly, or is not likely to work properly, either.
And that was the whole point of my post. The rest was just educational. So OP can figure it out instead of coming back every couple of hours.
 
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