Suspension help needed

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rich_mc

rich_mc

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FABO Gold Member
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Picked up this 76 Scamp last fall after missing a 72 Swinger I sold 15 years ago a bit too much... it's a 225 Slant 6 with about 60K miles... it had been fitted with air shocks and they kept leaking all the air out resulting in a very saggy back end - replumbed them and they still leaked, so the issue must've been in the shock... anyway, went ahead and replaced all 4 shocks with the KYB units and put the Hotchkis rear leaf springs on it... Honestly, I didn't read real well and didn't realize that the Hotchkis leaves lower the back of the car below stock....

At this point, I don't feel like the stance of the car is right and the back still seems too low in comparison to the front. I was considering cranking down the torsion bars to lower the front, but if I turn the wheel to the side the tires only clear the fender by maybe 1.5" now - lowering the front will surely result in hitting the fenders...

Other options I can potentially see:
1. Swap the front leaf hanger from the new Hotchkis one to the factory one I took off since it appears to have the pivot bolt a little lower and would raise the back end just a little bit.
2. Replace the brand new leafs I just put on with something different
3. Air shocks again? I'm really not excited about this option and don't really want to go that route...

Are there other stance correction ideas I'm not seeing?

Lastly - I was considering swapping the front to discs and see from my research that a lot of guys use the 2" drop spindles available - How do they do that without rubbing the fenders? Use smaller tires maybe?

Thanks for any tips/ideas....

20220122_174148-X2.jpg


20220122_174203-X2.jpg
 
What size wheel & tire are you running? I have 215/70-14 on 14 x 5.5 rally wheels on a 67 Barracuda, which has a tighter front opening than a Dart. I cranked down the torsion bars 3/4" without any clearance problems. But your fronts might be a little wider, looking at the pix.
 
mvh said:
What size wheel & tire are you running? I have 215/70-14 on 14 x 5.5 rally wheels on a 67 Barracuda, which has a tighter front opening than a Dart. I cranked down the torsion bars 3/4" without any clearance problems. But your fronts might be a little wider, looking at the pix.
Click to expand...

This one also has 215/70-14 on 14x5.5's... I have plenty of clearance when the wheels are straight but it get's pretty slim when turned all the way to the side... is yours super tight when turned sideways? I guess I can always crank them down and then back up if it turns out to be an issue...
 
Some front leaf brackets have 2 holes, but the competent spring shop is a great idea, I did the same on a set of worn springs.
 
I think it looks pretty good like it is. Since you have the front hangers, that would be the easiest cheapest change to make. If that gets you an inch height increase, that may be all you need.
You may want to see if someone familiar with swapping from drums to disc brakes chimes in. I think that increases the front track width which would set your front tires farther out under the wheel opening.
 
The Hotchkiss springs only lower the car compared to stock because of the front hangers. If you reinstall the stock front hanger you'll raise the back end of the car close to 1".

Drop spindles are a waste of money. They add bump steer, and if you want to lower the car for handling purposes instead of just looks you can add larger torsion bars and lower with the adjusters. Of course, if you do add larger torsion bars to improve handling you'll also discover that KYB's are absolutely terrible shocks. All of that is likely moot since a simple spring hanger swap will raise the back end of the car up so you probably won't need to lower the front just to improve the stance.

Your 215/70/14's are on the tall side of what usually fits easily, one you get up around 26" tall for a front tire things get close on the lower fender corners. But more than likely the issue is the amount of backspacing you have on those rims. If it's a front drum brake set up they shouldn't be that far out, so those rims must not have much backspacing at all.

Your car has the 5x4" bolt pattern then? Must have been a earlier '76 then, built in '75 before disks were mandated. If you have the 5x4" drums the '73+ disk swap will indeed widen the track width, which may be an issue for those wheels even if you keep the 5x4" pattern (like the kits you can now get from DoctorDiff or PirateJack that use 73+ disk brakes but with the 5x4" pattern).
 
72bluNblu said:
The Hotchkiss springs only lower the car compared to stock because of the front hangers. If you reinstall the stock front hanger you'll raise the back end of the car close to 1".

Drop spindles are a waste of money. They add bump steer, and if you want to lower the car for handling purposes instead of just looks you can add larger torsion bars and lower with the adjusters. Of course, if you do add larger torsion bars to improve handling you'll also discover that KYB's are absolutely terrible shocks. All of that is likely moot since a simple spring hanger swap will raise the back end of the car up so you probably won't need to lower the front just to improve the stance.

Your 215/70/14's are on the tall side of what usually fits easily, one you get up around 26" tall for a front tire things get close on the lower fender corners. But more than likely the issue is the amount of backspacing you have on those rims. If it's a front drum brake set up they shouldn't be that far out, so those rims must not have much backspacing at all.

Your car has the 5x4" bolt pattern then? Must have been a earlier '76 then, built in '75 before disks were mandated. If you have the 5x4" drums the '73+ disk swap will indeed widen the track width, which may be an issue for those wheels even if you keep the 5x4" pattern (like the kits you can now get from DoctorDiff or PirateJack that use 73+ disk brakes but with the 5x4" pattern).
Click to expand...
Chrysler used the small bolt pattern on drum brake cars all the way through 76. I Owned an original 76 Dart with small bolt pattern drums all around.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Chrysler used the small bolt pattern on drum brake cars all the way through 76. I Owned an original 76 Dart with small bolt pattern drums all around.
Click to expand...

Up until January 1st, 1976. Anything built after then had front disks per federal mandate.

So the ‘76 model year started production in August of ‘75 and all the ‘76 model year cars built from August through December could have had front drums and the 5x4” pattern. After January 1 ‘76 they should have all been 5x4.5” with front disks.

But at this point it doesn’t hurt to ask because a lot can happen in over 4 decades. Another member on a different thread was just asking about the 11” 5x4.5” drums on his A body that came from a B-body. So yeah, I’ll ask before I assume. Especially since the OP appears to have either has really low backspace wheels or a wider track than a SBP car should have.
 
I think your're nitpicking a bit, but, hey, she's yours! If she were mine, I'd put a little beefier springs, like the 2800 lb units mad by several good manufacturers mentioned on this site. That way you can put all new poly/rubber components on her for the years to come.
 
Put the factory spring hangers back on and see where you’re at, only then start getting into the heavy thinking.

of course, there’s always the cool old-school extra long shackles. JK, Don’t do that
upload_2022-2-24_6-44-55.jpeg


DC46C5DE-E33A-4BAA-8B29-3C1748E6DC8B.jpeg
 
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72bluNblu said:
Up until January 1st, 1976. Anything built after then had front disks per federal mandate.

So the ‘76 model year started production in August of ‘75 and all the ‘76 model year cars built from August through December could have had front drums and the 5x4” pattern. After January 1 ‘76 they should have all been 5x4.5” with front disks.

But at this point it doesn’t hurt to ask because a lot can happen in over 4 decades. Another member on a different thread was just asking about the 11” 5x4.5” drums on his A body that came from a B-body. So yeah, I’ll ask before I assume. Especially since the OP appears to have either has really low backspace wheels or a wider track than a SBP car should have.
Click to expand...
Correct, still the 76 year model. Absolutely it doesn't hurt to ask. It could have Ford truck disc brakes held on with 200MPH tape as old as it is.
 
72bluNblu said:
The Hotchkiss springs only lower the car compared to stock because of the front hangers. If you reinstall the stock front hanger you'll raise the back end of the car close to 1".

Drop spindles are a waste of money. They add bump steer, and if you want to lower the car for handling purposes instead of just looks you can add larger torsion bars and lower with the adjusters. Of course, if you do add larger torsion bars to improve handling you'll also discover that KYB's are absolutely terrible shocks. All of that is likely moot since a simple spring hanger swap will raise the back end of the car up so you probably won't need to lower the front just to improve the stance.

Your 215/70/14's are on the tall side of what usually fits easily, one you get up around 26" tall for a front tire things get close on the lower fender corners. But more than likely the issue is the amount of backspacing you have on those rims. If it's a front drum brake set up they shouldn't be that far out, so those rims must not have much backspacing at all.

Your car has the 5x4" bolt pattern then? Must have been a earlier '76 then, built in '75 before disks were mandated. If you have the 5x4" drums the '73+ disk swap will indeed widen the track width, which may be an issue for those wheels even if you keep the 5x4" pattern (like the kits you can now get from DoctorDiff or PirateJack that use 73+ disk brakes but with the 5x4" pattern).
Click to expand...

Thanks - It is a 76 model built in late 75 so it was before the mandated transition to discs and does still have the 5x4 bolt pattern... not sure what the backspacing on the rims is but could certainly measure that when I can pull a wheel off.... I don't believe the rally wheels are original as there were 2 extra in the trunk (I assume they are the same as the ones installed but would have to measure to confirm)... There are also a set of hubcaps in the trunk when I bought it which I imagine were probably the originals on some steel wheels (the original steel wheels were not included with the purchase).
 
RogerRamRod said:
Put the factory spring hangers back on and see where you’re at, only then start getting into the heavy thinking.

of course, there’s always the cool old-school extra long shackles. JK, Don’t do that
View attachment 1715876566

View attachment 1715876565
Click to expand...

LOL - Definitely won't do the long shackles! I had to do that on my old Swinger due to being sold the wrong size Cragar S/S mags and it rode horrible then!
 
Thanks all for the help - I think you all are right that the best first step is to reinstall the factory front leaf hangers and then re-evaluate... Might try to do that this weekend if I have time!
 
BTW I would be surprised if your rally wheels had unusual back spacing — as far as I know they are all the same (all 14" SBP ones, at any rate). Unless they were custom ordered repros from Stockton Wheel or another vendor, but usually those are larger than 14 x 5.5 (because otherwise, why bother?). To answer the question, no, I have never had any tire rub issues on the front with this size. Not even on the road race track at Willow Springs, though I did get a little rub on the rears. Even with front and rear antisway bars, you get some body roll on a 90mph constant radius corner.
 
Well, I took the time today to swap back to the factory front leaf hangers. This moved the front of the spring down about 1.25"... the actual change in the height of the back of the car was minimal - maybe half of the 1.25" difference back at the axle....

Here's the difference in the Factory vs Hotchkis brackets...
i-34h6vvH

20220226_135142-X3.jpg


Here's the after swap results...
20220226_173225-X3.jpg


It didn't make as much difference as I hoped, but I can see a little improvement... I'm gonna leave it like this for now until I decide to do some front suspension/brake work...

Thanks again all for the discussion/tips...
 
I think it looks perfectly fine the way it is. Have you measured front of rocker to ground and back of rocker to ground? It looks level in the pictures.
 
racerjoe said:
I think it looks perfectly fine the way it is. Have you measured front of rocker to ground and back of rocker to ground? It looks level in the pictures.
Click to expand...

Thanks - It's pretty level at this point and I'm content for now until I do a front brake/suspension rebuild.
 
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