Swapped to Electronic Dizzy, Ran for a minute, now it won’t start!

-
Señor Ding Dong

Señor Ding Dong

Active Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2023
Messages
42
Reaction score
22
Location
Lindsay, Ontario, Canada
I have a 71 318 in my Dart and bought the Proform 66991 conversion kit from Summit. Installed it today, and it fired right up. Instructions say to start at 5° advance first and tune from there. When it fired it was at around 15°. Hooked up my vacuum gauge, and knocked the linkage for the choke valve and stalled it. Now it won’t start at all. Added a ground wire to the ECU as recommended. It’ll try to fire, sounds like 1 or 2 cylinders fire, then it dies. Or sometimes it doesn’t fire, but diesels as I stop cranking. I used the new ballast resistor from the kit, wired as per instructions.

I’m not a mechanic, I’m pretty new to distributors, so I’m at a total loss. Any ideas?
 
Sounds like the pick up in the distributor or the ECU died. All made overseas imagine them failing. Time for troubleshooting.
 
Check the reluctor gap... Should be 0.006-.008.. Last new MP distributor I checked about a month ago was close to .040.... So 5+ times as big as it should be... Only complaint was hard starting & hesitation...

Closed the gap & it starts instantly...
 
Ok, so the reluctor gap was close to 0.015, closed it to 0.008, still wouldn’t start. Rechecked the ground, moved it to a new location. Checked all connections. Tried a million different distributor positions. Finally put the old points distributor in, old ballast resistor in, now it starts, but running worse than before. What have I done to myself?
 
OK let's backtrack. Is it bad coil, something in the (old) distributor, or harness/ wiring?

So with the old dist, put a voltmeter on the coil POS and to ground. Turn the key to "run," engine stopped. IF THE meter reads full battery, AKA about 12+, 12.6 the points are OPEN. Bump the engine until they close. Voltage should drop to ?? about 6--10V or so. If way lower, there is something in the wiring, connections, harness, bulkhead connector, key switch or connector

Now start engine. Read coil + Should be 10-12V WHEN the battery is at 14 that is charging on the alternator.

If voltage seems normal..............

Possible problems: You left key on, burned points. Condenser (in dist) might be flakey. You may have a coil going bad.

Alternative:. Get/ build alligator clip jumper wires. You should have some, anyway. Jumper from battery direct to key side of ballast and see if things improve, and then try direct from battery to coil +. Do not run it too long that way, as this bypasses the ballast.

If it does not run better (and be sure of timing) I'd maybe look to a different coil to try.

You can also swap the electronics back in, and "hot wire" it with an alligator clip lead the same way.
 
If you do not know whether the points/ condenser in the dist are good, best to just replace. You CAN NOT test a condenser with an ohmeter, I do not care what the internet says. You need a high voltage leakage tester, period.
 
You changed the distributor out right? Did you set the motor to TDC and then pull the distro? You could have the new one 180 out plus depending on how much advanced or retard you have going on…
 
First thing I would do is test the ballast resistor.
 
Ok, so I took it out, started from scratch. Checked all the wiring, it’s wired correct, power to the ECU, ballast resistor is good. It’ll only start with a ton of advance, I only have timing marks on the cover, plus the TDC mark on the HB, so I don’t know how much, but guessing at least 30-40°. Is that a good indication that it’s 180° out? It’ll run, but stalls in gear.
 
Señor Ding Dong said:
Ok, so I took it out, started from scratch. Checked all the wiring, it’s wired correct, power to the ECU, ballast resistor is good. It’ll only start with a ton of advance, I only have timing marks on the cover, plus the TDC mark on the HB, so I don’t know how much, but guessing at least 30-40°. Is that a good indication that it’s 180° out? It’ll run, but stalls in gear.
Click to expand...
Nothing to do with 180

1..Timing marks are wrong due to wrong parts, etc
2...Cam timing is off is it a worn chain? Did this ever run right? What miles are on the engine build
3...If you are using a "dial back" timing light, there is something wrong there
4...Need to step back and start over. Use a piston stop. Verify the timing marks.
5...Google "rotor phasing."
6...You can set timing on the starter. If it won't run, you can still crank it and flash the light, check timing. You can also do that with plugs out, but make sure you lay plugs on ground, and hookup wires. AKA do not let spark jump "wild"
 
halifaxhops said:
Sounds like the pick up in the distributor or the ECU died. All made overseas imagine them failing. Time for troubleshooting.
Click to expand...
Last time this happened to me… sorry, the only time….
It was a MoPar Orange box failure. It would however restart if I unplugged it and plugged it back in again. Spin my head for 4 times to n each try and so I “Fired!” The box and the replacement has worked great ever since.

Weird right?
 
"180 out" means that the distributor is 1/2 turn off. You will still line up the marks and think it is in time. But it will be trying to fire no6 instead of no1. THIS IS EASY to dismiss!!!

Two ways:

1...Most common, remove no1 plug, bump engine until you feel compression. You may have to "go round" a couple of times. As soon as you feel compression, stop, manually wrench engine or bump carefully while looking for marks which should immediately come up

3.. Second way is IF you have the rocker covers off, bring up marks to TDC and look at no1 and no6 valves. One pair will be equally open, the other pair will be closed. the pair that are closed IS FIRING. You can either set dist in to fire on no6 if they are closed, or rotate the engine 1 turn so no1 valves are closed, and set the dist in for no1

DO NOT line them up on TDC but rather WHERE YOU WANT timing, AKA 15 BTC, etc. Now drop in dist with rotor pointing to where you want no1 on the cap.

Line up no1 cap tower with the rotor, and next, rotate the dist body retard (cw on SB) and then SLOWLY rotate it back CCW (advanced on SB) until either A: Spark triggers at the pickup, or B visually center the pickup and the reluctor. THAT SHOULD be close enough to START
 
So a little more info, I got the car a month ago. It was running, but would fall on it's face with anything but the lightest acceleration or load, it would stumble and stall if I didn't let off right away. Everyone I spoke with thought it was a carb issue, but when I put the timing light on it, it was set to just under 5* advance. I set it to around 12-13* advance and that issue mostly stopped. It still stumbled briefly on hard acceleration in lower rpms, but at speed was fine. At idle it had the occasional light pop from the exhaust, almost like it was missing occasionally. I figured since I was going to upgrade some things on the engine, I might as well start with changing to electronic distributor. Planning on going 4bbl over the winter, just looking for drivability for the rest of the summer. Installed the Proform 66991 Distributor as per the instructions, and now with the timing at 12* it won't start. Fires briefly, maybe on one cylinder, and then dies. Advance the timing a LOT, (don't know how much, only a TDC mark on the HB, and that gets hidden by the rad hoses after 12 or 13*), but likely 30 or 40*, and it chugs like it's having a hard time even turning over, and then it will fire. Idles a little rough, still with the light pop/miss, and when I put it in gear it dies immediately.

I tried putting the old distributor back in the other day, seemed to have all the same issues, and then after about 5 minutes of farting around with timing it started, and I took it for about a 1/2 mile drive. It stalled when I was turning around, fired right back up, but when I got home it stalled when I was backing in to the garage and wouldn't fire again. That's when I started over and reinstalled the new distributor from scratch, re-checking the wiring I had done. Installed a ground wire from the ECU to the bolt on the engine the battery is grounded to. Having all the issues as I described. Tried turning the distributor 180* in case that was the issue, but immediately back-fired out the carb, so I know that's not it. New wires, new plugs, gapped at 0.035. Checked reluctor gap on the new dizzy, it was closer to 0.015, but even with it at 0.008 it hasn't improved.

I don't think the timing marks are too far off, as with the points dizzy, it ran pretty well at around 12-13*, which seems about right compared to other threads.

I have a new fuel filter to install, and have a new coil coming, as the old one was pretty beat up. I'm hoping that one or both of these are the issue. Can you test the coil without the engine running?

Also, the carb looks like a Carter BBD, but has no markings whatsoever, so I think it might be a chinese knock-off from Amazon, so I can't get a rebuild kit for it, in case the carb has a clogged primary, or something like that. Can you take apart a carb and clean it, and put it back together with the old gaskets, or is that just asking for more trouble?

Sorry for all the questions, I'm pretty green when it comes to some of these things, and this is my first MOPAR.

Thank you!
 
I think you have a fuel AND an ign issue.
Ign.
[1] Check all 8 reluctor tip gaps. I have had reluctors that were out of round. If the tip makes contact on that cyl, there will be no spark. If you find a variation in the gap, find the tighest gap & set that to 0.008". Also make sure that the rel & shaft are tight, no looseness.
[2] Reluctor phasing. Most rel have two slots in them, because the SB engines rotate in the opposite direction to the BBs. This allows one reluctor to be used in both engines. The wrong slot could have been used which causes all sorts of misfire etc. Compare to another SB dist if you have one. If not, the rel turns CW. The ign fires just as the trailing edge of the rel tip passes the p/up node. At that instant, the rotor tip should be pointing at a segment in the cap. If not, the wrong rel slot has probably been used.
 
Bewy said:
I think you have a fuel AND an ign issue.
Ign.
[1] Check all 8 reluctor tip gaps. I have had reluctors that were out of round. If the tip makes contact on that cyl, there will be no spark. If you find a variation in the gap, find the tighest gap & set that to 0.008". Also make sure that the rel & shaft are tight, no looseness.
[2] Reluctor phasing. Most rel have two slots in them, because the SB engines rotate in the opposite direction to the BBs. This allows one reluctor to be used in both engines. The wrong slot could have been used which causes all sorts of misfire etc. Compare to another SB dist if you have one. If not, the rel turns CW. The ign fires just as the trailing edge of the rel tip passes the p/up node. At that instant, the rotor tip should be pointing at a segment in the cap. If not, the wrong rel slot has probably been used.
Click to expand...
Reluctor was slightly out of round, gap was a little tight on 3 of them, fixed that. The rotor is not out of phase, points directly at the tower when trailing edge is just at the contact.

Before checking all this, I got it to start yesterday, idled for a few minutes. To start I had the timing pretty far advanced and it idled rough. Dialed it back to about 12°, it ran better. Shut it down, couldn’t get it to fire up again at any timing. I’m so frustrated at this point.
 
Fuel supply problem.

Run an alternate fuel source, with a rubber hose hanging from the open hood directly to the 2 barrel carb.

Fire it up. This takes the fuel pump and bad fuel out of the equation. Gravity feeding the engine with fresh clean fuel.

20230115_204933(0).jpg


☆☆☆☆☆
 
Sounds to me like a typical 318 nylon timing gear jump problem. How many miles on this engine? And do you know any previous history of it?
 
Take distributor cap off, rock engine back and forth with balancer bolt and take note of rotor movement.
 
Anyone who said it was the coil, come collect your prize! Installed a new Accel Super Stock coil, problem solved. Needs some timing adjustments, and valve seals, but she’s alive and kicking!

I can’t imagine why the old coil failed…

Thanks all!

IMG_4399.jpeg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top