Thinking outside the box

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Bill Dedman

Bill Dedman

bill dedman
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There are a lot of reasons why small block Mopars SHOULD have outrun Chevy V8 small blocks over the years... To name a few:

Superior design features, like:
Valves centered in the cylinder (Chevys are not)
Larger diameter lifters (better valve actuation)
Longer rods (better cylinder filling)
Usually, bigger valves
18-degree valve angle STOCK (Chevys were 23-degree, I believe)
Bigger bore (Chevy never had a 4.040" bore like a 340, without siamesed bores)
Shaft-mounted rockers
"Cool fuel" (Thermoquads)
Better automatic transmissions
I'm sure there are a lot more reasons; I just can't think of them right now.

But, generally speaking, they have played second fiddle to the Bow Tie, a decidedly inferior engine, throughout the years. Look at the NHRA records....

When I ask myself "WHY?" I can only see two reasons for this anomaly.

To wit: The weight of the reciprocating assembly (including rods, pins, pistons, and crank) of a 340 motor will outweigh a 350 Chevy's by a bunch.

I think the 340 crank, alone, is about 5 pounds heavier than a 350 Chevy's.

Unless you want to buy lighter aftermarket components that are designed to weigh less (and, you surely can do that), you're stuck with a heavier reciprocating assembly that will eat up more horsepower than the Chevy, just turning itself over... and is harder to accelerate from low rpm's to high.

But, I think the REAL reason for our favorite 340's and 360's playing second fiddle to the Bow Ties is in cylinder head air flow.

Granted, W-2's and specialty (Edelbrock, etc.) non OEM heads can be had that can turn the L-A and Magnum small blocks into Chevy's worst nightmare (screamers,) but the really good ones usually entail buying a lot of necessary, but "different" hardware (longer valves, different headers, special rocker arms, dedicated intake manifolds, etc) that can run the cost of this hi-performance system up to a figure that the average, Joe who's building a street/strip car, can't justify spending.

Indulge me just a bit here; I apologize for the length....

Back in the '70s, when Pro Stock was in its infancy, there was a team of AMC guys (Wally Booth and Dick Arons) who wanted to be competitive with an AMC Hornet, but none of the AMC heads flowed enough air.

They took two cast iron V8 heads and made one TALL head by cutting one horizontally, a little above the halfway point, and the other head a little below the halfway point. The put the two "tall" halves together and ended up with a head that was about 3/4" taller than a stock head. I'm not sure if 3/4" is correct, but, you get the idea...

They performed an acetylene marriage between the two, built a matching head for the other side, and SHAZAM.... It was so fast that NHRA BANNED "welded" heads after they showed how well it coud run by winning a bunch of races with it.

The G.M. heads that go onto their newer small block LS series of motors (based on the aluminum Corvette motor) have very tall ports.... The Cadillac Escalade has a derivative of that Corvette engine; I think it's called an LQ9, maybe (not sure), but Car Craft has tested that motor/head combination and determined that those heads (and, they ARE classified as small block (LS series) heads,)flow over 300-cfm, right out of the box!!!

The heads we get excited about for our 340s/360s don't generally flow anywhere near that much. Sometimes, even the ported versions don't flow that well.

The regular OEM L-A and Magnum heads have an "Achilles heel," it seems to me; the narrow area where the intake ports pass the pushrods.
I know that the T-A heads have offest rockers and the ports can be somewhat wider, and the W-2's are better, yet, but now we're into specialized valve train hardware just to get a decent-sized intake port. And, there's no "wide-port" Magnum head at all... that ~I~ know of. Correct me, please, if I'm wrong.

As you know, there are now companies making aftermarket heads for L-A and Magnum small block Mopars. This new head from Hughes (can't remember who casts it) is another addtion to the varriety of heads available, along with the aluminum ones from Edelbrock. That's good.... great, in fact.

But, even with all this activity, and the improvements they have made, they still are MILES away from the heads on a STOCK Cadillac Escalade... which are aluminum, but otherwise, not much different from the larger (but still small block) cast iron Chevy TRUCK motor heads.

What I'm thinking is, why not a NEW L-A/Magnum head that is TALLER (since we can't go WIDER with the intake ports) so that the volume of the intake ports can be significantly larger, in a move like the AMC boys did, back 35 years ago...

The intake manifold would have to be a one-off design with taller ports, but the header flange pattern could remain the same. I don't want to have to buy a new set of TTI's just because I put a better intake port on my motor...

About the only thing that would need to change would be the intake manifold (and gaskets), head-bolt length, pushrod length, and valve length.

Sure, it would take a lot of engineering on somebody's part, but I'd bet with a 3/4" increase in port height, (and, no other changes), air flow through the intake port would increase by a SIGNIFICANT amount! Maybe to over 300 cfm. Wouldn't THAT be nice????????????

I would hope that someday, down the road, one of these aftermarket Mopar cylinder head manufacturers would get a clue and eliminate that bottleneck (the too-close-together pushrods) and build a "TALL" small block Mopar head for the masses.

An engine so equipped would probably run ALL OVER a Chevy V8.

I can't wait........

Bill, in Conway, Arkansas
 
I think NHA has always put Mopars at a disavantage the way they rate HP. I just sold a set of virgin X heads to a guy who is running a 69 Cuda in some type of stock class. They rate his car at over 300 hp. He tells me the 350 Camaro's are rated at 255 HP. Which means they are allowed to run lighter cars. He has to add weight. Not fair in my book!
 
It's a combination of factors not at all related to the materials or design. NHRA does have issues with factoring... Not just mopars, but certain models of all the manufacturers seems to get factored oddly. Second, simple numbers... Economy of scale. A low production mopar is less than 1000. A low production Chevy is less than 10,000. There are 10 tiems as many guys figuring out how to make a Chevy run perfectly, and exceed it's design. So it's natural that the record books will show more performance gains by them.
 
One thing you are doing is comparing new chevy heads to old Mopar heads. The LS type chevy heads are what? 35-40 years newer than the stuff Mopar came out with back in the 60's. The chevy heads should out flow somthing that old. Tecnoligy has come a long way sence then.
 
It you want to compare late model chevy heads to mopar heads you should probably compare them to the new 5.7 and 6.1 Hemi heads.

Indy makes some serious heads for small block mopars that have big ports and can be ported to flow some good numbers. Indy also sells IndyBrocks which are Edelbrock heads machined like a TA head so no push rod pinch. Good heads are available now you just have to have the deep pockets to put a combination like that together.
 
My friend Roy does his homework and has a 499 with Brewer heads and should be runnin some 5.30's next year.He has had tranny problems and transfer problems and when he figured out the transfer problems the tranny broke!!
 
Burntorange said, "One thing you are doing is comparing new chevy heads to old Mopar heads. The LS type chevy heads are what? 35-40 years newer than the stuff Mopar came out with back in the 60's. The chevy heads should out flow somthing that old."

And, they do... but what I am saying is, they wouldn't be able to maintain their flow superiority if someone would just design a taller port L-A/Magnum replacement head that was simply a taller version of a Magnum head, so that the narrow pushrod "pinch" didn't matter. This taller head would make up vertically what it lacked in horizontal area. No specialized offset rockers would be necessary...the valves would all stay in the same place... just the intake port volume would change... dramatically. There would be room for a larger exhaust port too, of course, but the Magnum exhaust port already flows pretty well, and I'd like to see the head accept present-day L-A/Magnum headers to keep the changeover cost down for people making the switch.

Someone suggested that I should be comparing the LS heads to a late Hemi head... and I would except they won't work on my 360... and, that's what I am directing this discussion towards; 318/340/360 motors. There's no glaring disparity between the flow characteristics of a new Hemi and an LS-1 like what exists between the L-A and Magnum heads and an LS-/LQ-9 head.

340sFastback mentions the wide-port IndyBrock combination which sounds like the real deal, except for the $$$$ involved. I'm looking for a better-flowing cast iron (read "cheaper") head that would be affordable for guys like me (poor.)

I wasn't concerned with the NHRA Stock and Super Stock situation for two reasons: 1. Mopars do VERY well in both of those categories, winning a lot more races than they should logically be expected to, given the numbers (demographics). Something like 77-percent pf the Stock Eliminator cars are Chevys, but they sure don't win 77 percent of the races.

2. The Stock and S/S horsepower factoring is not bad at all for the Mopars, in my opinion. The example cited by FC7freak "350 Camaro's are rated at 255 HP." is true, but that is for a low-performance, low compression Camaro. The '71 350s with high compression and a decent cam are factored to as much as 325 horsepower; more than any 340 or 360 Mopar motor. NHRA keeps a pretty tight lid on this stuff, nowadays.

It doesn't hurt that Mopar sponsors a national event...

NHRA de-factors some combinations, too.... For example, the 318 2bbl motor for 1971 is factory rated at 230 horsepower, but NHRA has dropped it to 185. The 273 4bbl "Commando" motor for 1965 is factory rated at 235, but NHRA has dropped it down to 210 in Stock. There's one of these motors in a Div. VI '65 Valiant going 12.0's in K/SA... driven by Angela Bushmaker of Seattle.

You can check out any of these ratings at the NHRA Classification Guide, which is at: http://www.nhra.com/tech_specs/classification/

But, the heads I am talking about, the ones I'd like to see built, (but probably won't,) wouldn't be legal for Stock Eliminator (or, probably S/S, either.)

They'd be a street-strip deal for bracket racers, which would help out a lot more people. We still don't have a 300cfm head at a reasonable price for an L-A /Magnum small block.... and, we need one.

That's what this rant is all about. I'd like to have the Chevy guys envious of OUR cylinder heads for a change.... and, I think this "tall port" head could do that.

It can't be that hard to do...

Bill, in Conway, Arkansas
 
It may not be all that hard to do, but how needed is a head like that on there products today. IF Mopar had a car to complete with the Corvette while useing the HEMI engine only and not the V-10 Viper engine, it may very well be a different story.

Believe me Bill, when I'm out there on the back roads in the summer time, the Chevy boy's are screaming like stuck pigs for any advantage they can muster up and site every bennifit the Chrysler engine has starting with the heads.
 
Rumblefish said, "Believe me Bill, when I'm out there on the back roads in the summer time, the Chevy boy's are screaming like stuck pigs for any advantage they can muster up and site every bennifit the Chrysler engine has starting with the heads."
I don't care what they whine about.... I just want to outrun 'em...8)

There are a lot of Edelbrock, R-T and Iron Ram (Hughes name for them) heads being sold. You ask, how much of a market for a head like what I suggest would there be?

It looks to me like the L-A/Magnum cylinder head market is pretty healthy, and this head would outperform all of the above for less money, I think. Well, might not be cheaper than the Iron Ram, but it should certainly be cheaper than the aluminum heads and would be so much better than all the current iron heads, I'd think that people would choose it over any of these current offerings, for the flow characteristics (iron) and price (aluminum.)

Getting someone to invest the mobney into manufacturing them is another story, however, and probably the reason we'll likely never see them...

But, it's a nice dream. :happy10:

Bill
 
All your chevy loving is making me sick!

First your comparing an old *** design from the sixties to this 2000's LQ9 crap, your not even comparing 2 motors that are equally as old [350 vs 340-360] and when someone else compared this blowtie crap to the new hemi which is a comparison that makes more sense, you go back to comparing the 20th century to the stone age.

1ST Chevy sucks and always will

2ND Chevy has/had-lol more money to sponsor and produced more chevy crap hence the 77 percent you mention[dedham]

3RD Chevy 350 heads flow terrible on the intake side and flow great on the exhaust side which causes over scavenging and unburnt fuel out the tail
pipe, headers make this even worse, LAME.

4TH SB dodge heads flow pretty good with the exception of the [in factory form exhaust] which can be fixed, But really what's harder getting it in?
OR PUSHING IT OUT???

5TH NHRA rates the 340 at 325HP and runs it head to head against a 68 or so 396 aluminum intake chevy big block camero WHICH LOSES EVERY TIME!
WHAT CAR HOLDS THE G STOCK RECORD? A DEMON MAYBE?

6TH Why is it that they make so many parts for a chevy?
COULD IT BE CAUSE EVERYTHING IN A CHEVY SUCKS.

7TH what happens when you put a 4' crank into a 350 chevy?
crank/rod hits the cam.

8TH a 350 chevy with the same cam lift as a 340 with 10cfm more in the heads would still make less power than the mopar due to the mopars longer rods and and lager lifters .

9TH Can you put these LQ9 heads on your 350 chevy??

10TH I guess you haven't noticed how short all of the 350 chevy ports are and how much taller the SB dodge ports are in comparison.

BTW What's the stroke of the 500hp borevette & cattlejack, 4'?
Hell I'll get 525+HP out of an old stroked out mopar dinosaur engine
with ported iron and spend way less and retain my masculinity unlike the mid life crisis hot rodder yuppies.
Case closed.


Now would 300cfm be nice, yea.
W2's flow that and then some ported, but we're not talking exotic heads or are we? LQ9?????????

Apples to crapples.
 
Also, Just like MTV-TRL is popular with all the brain washed idiots, so is chevy.

Just like anything [even presidents] spew it enough and it's common knowledge or considered fact by all of the morons.

Remember all the geeks, dweebs, and losers you went to school with are out here amongst us and probably driving chevy's

These people are here for a reason, to make us look cooler than we already are.
 
3404spdvaliant said....
>>>All your chevy loving is making me sick!

What "Chevy loving?" I haven't owned a Chevy for the last 40 years. In fact, in 70 years, I've only owned two... and one was a race car. That was in 1965-'68. How old were you then?
I just love to OUTRUN them.... That's why I want some better heads at a reasonable price to use. What's wrong with that?


>>>First your comparing an old *** design from the sixties to this 2000's LQ9 crap, your not even comparing 2 motors that are equally as old [350 vs 340-360] and when someone else compared this blowtie crap to the new hemi which is a comparison that makes more sense, you go back to comparing the 20th century to the stone age."

Hemi heads won't fit my 360. Of what use is it to me if they flow 500cfm; they won't bolt onto my 360 Magnum. Not pertinent to this discussion...

LQ9 heads are true wedge (do you know what that means?) heads that can be directly compared with an L-A motor head or Magnum, because they are both true wedges. But, I'm not interested in talking about L-A or Magnum heads, only to show what can be done with another head of that design... that it can, with tall ports, flow 300cfm "out of the box."

Guess you missed the point..


>>>>1ST Chevy sucks and always will

I think so, too, that's why I love to beat them to the end of the strip...
Have you beaten a Chevy lately????

>>>>>2ND Chevy has/had-lol more money to sponsor and produced more chevy crap hence the 77 percent you mention[dedham]

That sentence makes no sense at all, and what is a "dedham"? Chevy hasn't sponsored a race car (drag race, anyway) since 1963. That was 45 years ago... and has nothing to do with what goes on today.


>>>>>3RD Chevy 350 heads flow terrible on the intake side and flow great on the exhaust side which causes over scavenging and unburnt fuel out the tail pipe, headers make this even worse, LAME.

Can you show me where I even MENTIONED a 350 Chevy in ANYTHING I posted? Why do you bring them up? They're junk...

>>>>>4TH SB dodge heads flow pretty good with the exception of the [in factory form exhaust] which can be fixed, But really what's harder getting it in? OR PUSHING IT OUT???

You need both... My Magnum heads only flow about 209cfm on the intake (L-A heads flow 212, marginally better), but 178 on the exhaust side (142 for the L-A heads). These figures are off the Hughesengines site, generated by their flow bench. I just want to buy a head that flows 300 out of the box on the intake side, like an LQ9 does. Tell me what's wrong with that?

Clue; that doesn't mean I LOVE Chevys; it means I want to OUTRUN them...
I like nothing better.


5TH NHRA rates the 340 at 325HP and runs it head to head against a 68 or so 396 aluminum intake chevy big block camero WHICH LOSES EVERY TIME!

The only 396 built in 1968 with an aluminum intale iwas a 375HP motor. That engine in a '68 Camaro runs A, B, or C Stock (or, A, B, or C Stock AUTOMATIC.)
Dusters/Demons don't run any of this classes; the highest class they can run is D...

You're thinking of the cast iron, low-rise intake 325HP '68 Camaros, which run in E and F...

>>>>>WHAT CAR HOLDS THE G STOCK RECORD? A DEMON MAYBE?

Should be, or a Duster... but, not right now.

If you will go to: http://tinyurl.com/6agdwa which is the NHRA Stock Car Classification Guide webpage, and scroll down to the horsepower factor for the 1971 340 motor (the highest horsepower you can get in a Duster or Demon), you'll see that the factored horsepower is not 325, but 314. Where did you get your information that it was 325? There are some high-compression Camaro 350s that are rated (factored) to 325hp, but no 340s/360/s.

The G Stock record is held by no one; it's at a minimum. That means the old record was retired (2-year "life" on records in NHRA.) Another way a record can go to "minimum" is if the car that held it picks up horsepower from the Automatic Horsepower Factoring System and is no longer legal for that class.

However, there IS a class record in G/SA... 10.93 @ 119.63, held by an '81 Chevrolet driven by some guy from Scottsville, NY named Jim Marshall. There are a LOT of 340 cars that will eat his lunch, trust me...

Why do you ask; don't you get National DRAGSTER??? Maybe you should...

>>>>6TH Why is it that they make so many parts for a chevy?
COULD IT BE CAUSE EVERYTHING IN A CHEVY SUCKS.

I don't know; it's been so long since I owned one, I can't remember. I don't like to get that close to them...

>>>>>7TH what happens when you put a 4' crank into a 350 chevy?
crank/rod hits the cam.

Poor engine design; what else is new???

>>>>>8TH a 350 chevy with the same cam lift as a 340 with 10cfm more in the heads would still make less power than the mopar due to the mopars longer rods and and larger lifters .

Dunno where you got that information. but it could be true.... but the Chevy has less parasitic drag due to less reciprocating weight, so it might be a wash... One thing's for sure; the Mopar will do it LONGER!!!

>>>>>9TH Can you put these LQ9 heads on your 350 chevy??

If I was dumb enough to own a Chevy, would I be on this forum?

>>>>>10TH I guess you haven't noticed how short all of the 350 chevy ports are and how much taller the SB dodge ports are in comparison.

And, that benefits me HOW, with my 209cfm intake port flow???

>>>>>BTW What's the stroke of the 500hp borevette & cattlejack, 4'?

Will you rephrase that question, please? I can't figure just out what it is that you want/need to know. The 2009 ZR-1 Corvette has a 3.62" stroke...
So what?


>>>>>Hell I'll get 525+HP out of an old stroked out mopar dinosaur engine
with ported iron and spend way less and retain my masculinity unlike the mid life crisis hot rodder yuppies.
Case closed.

Finally.......


>>>>>Now would 300cfm be nice, yea.

That was my whole point; 300cfm without having to port them... The LQ9 simply proves that it can be done. I don't want to have to spend money on porting and exotic valve train hardware when it should be possible to get that kind of port performance from my 360 with out-of-the-box parts.

That's all I was saying.

>>>>>W2's flow that and then some ported, but we're not talking exotic heads or are we? LQ9?????????

No, we're not. LQ9 heads are anything BUT exotic, with the same general design in cast iron on Chevy TRUCKS... True wedge, 2 valves per cylinder, pushrod activated valves, all in a row... Nothing at all exotic about those heads.

Apples to apples; out of the box heads (LQ9's) to out of the box heads (my idea for tall-port L-A/Magnum cast iron aftermarket heads).
 
3404spdvaliant said:
Also, Just like MTV-TRL is popular with all the brain washed idiots, so is chevy.

Not so much anymore.... Toyota Camry was the best selling car last year... not a Chevy. BTW, those V6 Camrys (they're all 6-speed automatics) will run 100mph in the quarter... seriously.

Just like anything [even presidents] spew it enough and it's common knowledge or considered fact by all of the morons.

Spew WHAT enough????

Remember all the geeks, dweebs, and losers you went to school with are out here amongst us and probably driving chevy's

Most of the ones I went to school with are dead.... of old age... :(

These people are here for a reason, to make us look cooler than we already are.
Click to expand...

I was looking at your hood scoop. Can you say "boundary layer"? :)
 
OE posted by 3404spdvaliant; He said in the #4 question....

But really what's harder getting it in?
OR PUSHING IT OUT???

Well, according to my wife,.................. A baby coming out.

ROFLMAO (Damn dirty minded wife.)
 
OK, you're trying to do this two different ways:

Initially, you compare the SB Mopar to the SB Chevy.

Bill Dedman said:
There are a lot of reasons why small block Mopars SHOULD have outrun Chevy V8 small blocks over the years... To name a few:

Superior design features, like:
Valves centered in the cylinder (Chevys are not)
Larger diameter lifters (better valve actuation)
Longer rods (better cylinder filling)
Usually, bigger valves
18-degree valve angle STOCK (Chevys were 23-degree, I believe)
Bigger bore (Chevy never had a 4.040" bore like a 340, without siamesed bores)
Shaft-mounted rockers
"Cool fuel" (Thermoquads)
Better automatic transmissions
I'm sure there are a lot more reasons; I just can't think of them right now.
Click to expand...

Then you start comparing it to the late model LS motors...

Bill Dedman said:
Someone suggested that I should be comparing the LS heads to a late Hemi head... and I would except they won't work on my 360... and, that's what I am directing this discussion towards; 318/340/360 motors.
Click to expand...

The LS heads won't bolt on a Small Block Chevy either.

First off, the LS motors are the top of the heap as far as small block motors go, like it or not. If GM could manage to put one in a car anyone wanted to buy, it would be more obvious.

The newer production stuff also has the advantage of better ring technology (less drag), and machining tolerances that your local guy is never going to beat. Also remember that the ports on these heads are only required to flow air, whereas old school small blocks have to flow air and fuel.

I think you're on to something with the weight issue, and there are a bunch of supposed advantages that the Mopars have that aren't really advantages....Like...

Gigantic heavy lifters. I suppose they might give "better valve actuation", but the brand X cars are actuating their valves just fine. Valvetrain weight is a huge concern for RPM production (which is how small blocks make power). Racers fret over Ti retainers and beehive springs to save grams, and we're stuck with these lifters that way ounces more.

I don't really think the shaft rockers are an advantage. You can spin stud mount rockers really high without trouble (in my SB Ford, I ran 7/16 stud mounts 8000 RPM in NMRA Pure Street competition *without* stud girdles). Stud rockers have a big advantage in that its cheaper and easier for them to improve what the factory gave them than it is for us.

Valvetrain Angle; Well, that's an advantage, as it can move air more easily, but it can only move the air that gets in, and the problems with Mopar heads are widely known...same thing applies to big valves.

Thermoquads? If I want to make power, I'll go for a Holley every time, cool fuel or not.

As you mentioned, rotating assembly weight is also a huge problem. There are huge gains to be had in dropping weight here.

Lets not forget exhaust, either. The A body wasn't designed with a V8 in mind, so the header options aren't as good as they are for most GM and Ford stuff.

Timing control is hugely important for power production, and WTF is with the distributor on these small block Mopars? Whose idea was it to set that up?

I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that Chevy (and Ford) put a lot of priority on their small block design. GM invented it after all. (and this is doubly true of the LS motors), whereas in the 60s Chrysler was concentrating on the big block stuff.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Mopar, but I'm not going to be in denial about its limitations.
 
Hey dedman you don't know what the hell your talking about and if it's just a ***** about wanting better heads for cheap then your going about it the wrong way.

The last national dragster I picked up at pomona says......
G/S 10.98 @121.12 ROD GREEN DUNLOP TN. 72' DODGE DEMON.

Thats G/S, get it?????

06' LS7 bore & stroke= 4.125/ 4.00, ok?
Escalame 07' & later=4.065/ 3.622 , yea I know and was referring to the above.

OH and I guess your right about the nhra rating, it isn't 325, it's 328 knuckle head=70 340 barracuda.
See you said the 71' 350 was rated higher then any sb mopar, WRONG.
http://www.nhra.com/2004/sportsman/news/december/121501.html

And you still don't answer my question about wether the lq9 heads will bolt to a 350, which is a fair comparison being they came out around the same time and 350's were even made longer then the 340 meaning they had more development and their head design was out longer also.


If I had the choice between heads that flow good on the intake and flow not so good on the exhaust I'D take'em over heads that could not get the air in the first place.

How much are those chevy heads new?
I'm sure they are over $2000 which is all it wold cost to bolt on w2's or ported eddy's that flow the #'s you speak.

There are ways which manufactures compete HP wise and you can bet that chrysler aint competing with a 40old dinosaur motor [which still kicks ***]
Instead they are using technology =NEW HEMI
Buck up for w2's,eddys,Indy's &....Quit bitching.lol
 
rumblefish360 said:
OE posted by 3404spdvaliant; He said in the #4 question....

But really what's harder getting it in?
OR PUSHING IT OUT???

Well, according to my wife,.................. A baby coming out.

ROFLMAO (Damn dirty minded wife.)
Click to expand...

Yea pretty funny, my wife is going to be doing that in 2 weeks or so.

But though you need both, what I say is true, it's harder to get the high pressure to seek the low [intake] than it is to force it out at 100+psi.
 
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