To Stroke, or not to Stroke

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If you can do the installations yourself, $14K is a doable budget for a 451 car from a /6 car. A V8 car would be less. I don't think you can do the 500" anything without going another couple grand at least. And keep in mind the roll bar you'll need. Better basic parts will perform excellently. So my build would go soemthing like this:
B based 451 using 440Source kit and the Indy SR EZ heads. The intake would be the M1 single plane with a 1" spacer if it fits under the hood. I'd run a solid flat tappet cam to keep things simple. The engine will run around $8K with the cooling system and carb/ignition. The trans, I would build a basic 727B, a Cheeta RPMVB, and the red clutches, and deep pan. $1500 w/PTC or TCC convertor. You sont need a Dana 60 for the 451 option. With moderate tires and leaf springs, it will live many seasons. So spool, gone thru, ring and pinion, etc $1000. I would leave the existing springs and stick some cal tracs on it. A set of /6 torsion bars is what you want.. free from most people...lol. So rear and suspension with good race shocks $2000. The rest of the cage, chassis connectors, belts, jacket, misc gage, fuel system, exh, wiring, etc will eat up the last $1500. You still have to put it all together, and the body needs to be done if it's rough now. The biggest cost difference is the dana and larger parts the 500"+ needs to be reliable in a bracket scenario.
 
This is good information. I'll use this, plus what I receive from 440source.com, and ...crap, can't remember who I sent the email about heads to... #-o but when they reply, I'll put it all into a combination and post it here to get your opinions. I've given consideration to the idea of just putting in a higher compression ( about 9 or 10:1 ) 400 in and see what happens...

I have another big block, and 400s seem to be in good supply...so we'll see what the other information I asked for holds...

Like I said. This is a long term project, so decisions can be made, and changed along the way. :D

j
 
It was Aerohead Racing. I got to give them a call, as well as 44source.com and get a combination together to see what happens...

j
 
Aerohead Racing is Indy. You can do MUCH better than anything from them. I wold buy the Indy heads direct, and have my shop go thru and fix them. Or, a set of RPMs would be fine foo, and be about $1K less. If you're thinking Areohead iron, upgrade to RPMs...
 
Anybody use any of those new stealth heads from 440 source? How limited are you with the stock heads? Saying that the gearing and everything else is right, what kind of performance would you expect? 14's?13's? High 12's? I am just trying to make the best decisions were my money goes these days.
 
I talked to someone at 440source.com today. I am confident that my plan to build a 451 with the MP 292/509 cam, 727 trans, 2800-3200 converter, 3.90 gears, and a good chassis will net me the timeslips I want. The current plan is:
  • 400 Block
  • 451 Stroker kit
  • MP 292/.509 Hydrolic Cam
  • Stealth Heads
  • 10:1 CR ( ish ;) )
  • 727 TF trans, unless I can find an OD trans to fit the B engine
  • Dana 60 Rear ( 3.90 gears )
  • 4 link rear w/coil overs
  • Subframe Connectors
  • Tubular K-Frame
  • Tubular upper control arms
  • Roll Cage ( 10-12 point, not sure yet )
  • Glass hood/scoop...Maybe fenders

The Engine choices I think were the hardest ones. Now that I have what I have been advised is a reliable source confirming my configuration will be a good one, I will concentrate on picking up all the parts necessary to throw it together. Hopefully it won't take me TOO long to get it all together :snakeman:

j
 
chlngr1970 said:
I talked to someone at 440source.com today. I am confident that my plan to build a 451 with the MP 292/509 cam, 727 trans, 2800-3200 converter, 3.90 gears, and a good chassis will net me the timeslips I want. The current plan is:
  • 400 Block
  • 451 Stroker kit
  • MP 292/.509 Hydrolic Cam
  • Stealth Heads
  • 10:1 CR ( ish ;) )
  • 727 TF trans, unless I can find an OD trans to fit the B engine
  • Dana 60 Rear ( 3.90 gears )
  • 4 link rear w/coil overs
  • Subframe Connectors
  • Tubular K-Frame
  • Tubular upper control arms
  • Roll Cage ( 10-12 point, not sure yet )
  • Glass hood/scoop...Maybe fenders

The Engine choices I think were the hardest ones. Now that I have what I have been advised is a reliable source confirming my configuration will be a good one, I will concentrate on picking up all the parts necessary to throw it together. Hopefully it won't take me TOO long to get it all together :snakeman:

j
Click to expand...

I`d love to hear about those Stealth heads when you get that thing going.
 
Me too, My blk checked out good, now I have a question.
It has up to 12000 tapper in one cylinder, most are lower around 8000. If I go .30 over, am I ordering .30 over 440 or .30 over 400?They are wanting to know how much to punch it out to and I am not sure. What do you guys think?
The crank is going to get sized down to the 400 main size and polished and balanced.
Small Blk bought the equipment so we will start balancing everything else ourselves. This is alot of fun, I just hope it doesn't blow up in my face!!
 
Vic , you`ll want to find out what it will take to get the block cleaned up first, it could be anywhere from .030-.060. Take out only what you need to. When you get an exact bore size then you can supply the company that`s furnishing your engine parts the information. 440source has a wide variety of pistons in name brands for all of the Chrysler B and RB engines.
 
chlngr1970 said:
I talked to someone at 440source.com today. I am confident that my plan to build a 451 with the MP 292/509 cam, 727 trans, 2800-3200 converter, 3.90 gears, and a good chassis will net me the timeslips I want. The current plan is:
  • 400 Block
  • 451 Stroker kit
  • MP 292/.509 Hydrolic Cam
  • Stealth Heads
  • 10:1 CR ( ish ;) )
  • 727 TF trans, unless I can find an OD trans to fit the B engine
  • Dana 60 Rear ( 3.90 gears )
  • 4 link rear w/coil overs
  • Subframe Connectors
  • Tubular K-Frame
  • Tubular upper control arms
  • Roll Cage ( 10-12 point, not sure yet )
  • Glass hood/scoop...Maybe fenders
The Engine choices I think were the hardest ones. Now that I have what I have been advised is a reliable source confirming my configuration will be a good one, I will concentrate on picking up all the parts necessary to throw it together. Hopefully it won't take me TOO long to get it all together :snakeman:

j
Click to expand...

Just currious...What tubular kframe are you planning on?
 
Mancini Racing has a pretty good deal for a tubular K-Frame and upper control arms.
MANCINI - A Body Tubular K Frame Package
This package includes- Tubular K frame Tubular Upper Control Arms Aluminum Dynamic Strut Bars Engine Motor Mounts All the necessary mounting hardware. DOM seamless tubing, JIG machined, JIG welded.
$1,950.00
MRECAP7115
Click to expand...
I haven't looked to see if there are any alternatives, so if there is, LMK :D

j
 
Is the tube K member set up for Rack & pinion steering?

Ok guys, I understand about the .30 over but .30 over what?
The 400 bore is bigger than the 440 right out of the factory, do I go to .30 over in the 400 #'s or go .30 over in the 440 #'s which would be just a little more than what I need to get rid of the taper in that 400 blk I figure.

I am thinking it would be to the 400 to get as much displacement as possible. Any advice guys, the engine builder is needing to hear from me.
 
chlngr1970 said:
Mancini Racing has a pretty good deal for a tubular K-Frame and upper control arms.I haven't looked to see if there are any alternatives, so if there is, LMK :D

j
Click to expand...

That tubular kmember is not a good choice. Trust me I know. If you have the budget then get the alterkation or even magnumforce. Much better solution and wont break multiple times.
 
Vic Storm said:
Is the tube K member set up for Rack & pinion steering?

Ok guys, I understand about the .30 over but .30 over what?
The 400 bore is bigger than the 440 right out of the factory, do I go to .30 over in the 400 #'s or go .30 over in the 440 #'s which would be just a little more than what I need to get rid of the taper in that 400 blk I figure.

I am thinking it would be to the 400 to get as much displacement as possible. Any advice guys, the engine builder is needing to hear from me.
Click to expand...

What block are you using?
 
Vic Storm said:
Is the tube K member set up for Rack & pinion steering?
Click to expand...
Dunno yet. I haven't got that far into it yet ;) I looked up something I found on line from CAP...it looks to be the same kit that Mancini has.

Ok guys, I understand about the .30 over but .30 over what?
The 400 bore is bigger than the 440 right out of the factory, do I go to .30 over in the 400 #'s or go .30 over in the 440 #'s which would be just a little more than what I need to get rid of the taper in that 400 blk I figure.

I am thinking it would be to the 400 to get as much displacement as possible. Any advice guys, the engine builder is needing to hear from me.
Click to expand...
when getting pistons for it, you need the 400 bore size. Hope this helps...

fwaugh said:
That tubular kmember is not a good choice. Trust me I know. If you have the budget then get the alterkation or even magnumforce. Much better solution and wont break multiple times.
Click to expand...
I could get the Alterkation, but it would set my completion date back another year saving up the extra $2500 :( Guess I'll stick with my stock K-Frame.

j
 
Vic Storm said:
Is the tube K member set up for Rack & pinion steering?

Ok guys, I understand about the .30 over but .30 over what?
The 400 bore is bigger than the 440 right out of the factory, do I go to .30 over in the 400 #'s or go .30 over in the 440 #'s which would be just a little more than what I need to get rid of the taper in that 400 blk I figure.

I am thinking it would be to the 400 to get as much displacement as possible. Any advice guys, the engine builder is needing to hear from me.
Click to expand...

Vic, what piston you finally decide on will depend on what block you`re using. Not only is bore size important but because the deck height of the two blocks vary by about 3/4 inch the piston height/wrist pin positioning may be different from one kit to another. Even though a .020 over 440 bore might equal the standard bore of a 400 it`s important to get the proper piston for the block and only once you`ve seen what the block will clean up to.
 
The blk is a 4006530-400-3, I am thinking the bore was around the 4.325 or very close to it. I can find out for sure. I can get the .30 in the 400 in KB forged here in town for $509, 440 source wants $546. I am open to any and all suggestions on piston choice. I want a good strong piston but can't afford to get radical.
 
A 400 bored .030 over should yield a bore of 4.370. Since there`s around .002" in clearance between piston and bore, some machinists want the pistons first so they can bore the block to the pistons while others work the block and then buy the pistons. I bought pistons from 440source before and they were KB, I believe they also carry Ross. If you can find a local shop to deal with I would go that way, it`s a lot easier to work things in person than through the mail.
 
A 400 block std bore is 4.342 at .030 would 4.372. Most guys just make them 4.375 for piston and ring choices. I did a 400/470" for my 69 B'cuda. 400 blk/4.375 bore/3.900 eagle crank. Manley 6.760 h-beam rod. Diamond semi-custom pistons(10.2:1 w/Eddy 84cc heads) Runs fine on pump swill. Comp street solid roller cam (242/[email protected]/.570/.576 lift)Eddy DP4B intake/Holley 800 DP. 4spd with 3:73 gear. Car idles calmly at 850 rpm and pulls like a freght train to 6500 rpm. It's an absolute blast to drive!!
 
Is 6.760 stock 440 length or shorter, say the length of a BBC rod? I have stock heads and 440 rods so I am thinking the diamond 4.3750 and am looking for 10.5 to one with stock head chamber (452's w/2:14 intake)(88cc? I think) and I have been leaning toward a roller cam. I would think they would last longer and be less drag on the HP right? Is the 800 a duel feed /double pumper?
 
Vic Storm said:
Is 6.760 stock 440 length or shorter, say the length of a BBC rod? I have stock heads and 440 rods so I am thinking the diamond 4.3750 and am looking for 10.5 to one with stock head chamber (452's w/2:14 intake)(88cc? I think) and I have been leaning toward a roller cam. I would think they would last longer and be less drag on the HP right? Is the 800 a duel feed /double pumper?
Click to expand...

I think the 451 is a 400 using a 440 crank but I`m not sure what part/parts are changed to affect the stroke. Rod length, journal size, piston height, and wrist pin position can all have an effect on stroke length.
 
6.760 is 440 length rod. The only thing that changes stroke is the crank. Rod length,pin postion,journal size,etc have NO affect on stroke! Mine happens to be an Eagle crank at 3.900"(BBM journal dia.) w/6.760 rods w/.990 pins. works out to 469" at 4.375 bore.
At 3.75" stroke(440 stroke) and 4.375 bore you get 451" You can use any rod that fits your purpose,383-400 rod(6.375??),BBC at 6.535,RB mopar at 6.760,some guys are using 7.100 rods. Rod size does not affect displacement. Hope that helps!
Formula is--bore x bore x stroke .7854 x # of cyl.
No mention of rod length,etc.!
 
Ok, I understand what you are saying about stroke, What does rod length effect then? Compression? Cylinder mixture volume? Piston size? I am curious why all the choices of rod length would matter?
 
In geometric terms rod length affects piston height. In terms of performance a longer rod (tee hee) is better because it gives the piston more "dwell" time at TDC and BDC and lowers piston speed as well as rod angularity, thus reducing side loads on the cylinder walls. Some say this is why engines like the 318 last forever; they have super-long connecting rods (6.123") but only 3.31" stroke, so there's very little side load on the cylinders compared to a similar-size Phord or Chebby engine.
 
I`ve used the term "stroke length" to try describing the term for the distance from the top of the piston to the center of the crank journal. That`s probably the wrong term but frankly I don`t know what to call it.? As Dcuda69 described though that distance ,made up of several parts, can be attained in a wide combination of ways. Rod length, wrist pin position, journal size, piston height, and even bearing thickness will all affect the final length. The gist of it is that you`re essentially taking a RB crank and installing it in a B block. In order to do that you`ll have to search the kits available and find what pistons, crank, etc. you can find to work with the 440 rods you have. While it`ll surely be more expensive to buy an entire rotating assembly it may save you the headache of trying to find and match parts to work with the parts you already have.
 
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