Trick Flow small block heads

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I just got back from dropping of my block at the grey's Automotive machine shop when the subject came up about the Trick Flow heads. He had just dynoed a set on a mild 408. Cam was a Comp hydraulic roller 230/236 @ .50, Eldelbrock air gap, and Holley Sniper EFI. Horsepower was 439, with torque of 470. He was disappointed in the numbers. His thought with those flow number he would see closer to 500 on each. They have also talked to a couple of other shops that have done similar builds, and they get comparable figures. Right now dyno sheets are being sent to Trick Flow to see if something can be done. The leading thought is that these heads may be too big for a street engine, but are waiting for Trick Flow to respond.
Honestly, it sounds about right. I would think a little more HP, nether here or there though....

More cam and lift!
What header & exhaust tube?
 
Honestly, it sounds about right. I would think a little more HP, nether here or there though....

More cam and lift!
What header & exhaust tube?

The Quote AndyF about the headers, "I think those are 1 3/4 Schoenfeld sprint car headers but I bought them a long time ago so I'm not positive.'
As far as more cam and lift, I think that is kind of the conclusion that they are thinking. This engine is for a street car, so a good cam for it. That said, Blueprint is getting 445 HP/500 Torque with Eddy's and a flat tappet, and ATK is getting 465HP/535 torque with a similar hydraulic roller with Eddy's for comparison.
 
It's the same engine that I am talking about, Grey's does all the engine work for AndyF. The numbers I got were from Gray's Facebook page so I that made sure I remembered correctly what he told me. Anyway, they are thinking there is more power there, just need to find what the heads like to get the most out of them.



Not hard to figure out what they like. A great start would be more lift. What a waste of a good flowing head.
 
Not hard to figure out what they like. A great start would be more lift. What a waste of a good flowing head.

I think you are right, I think even with a small increase in lift, there would be a big improvement. I would like to see something in the .550 to .575 on the intake. Also, this is getting the range where a small single plane might be good, even for a street engine.
 
IMM Engines facebook page says the heads flow 290cfm @ .500 lift I would think that cam should make more than 439hp with those heads
 
I proved to myself and buddy that an intake like the LD340 CAN be a "half descent" intake but not out of the box and many of these "dyno guys" either have to send it out or just risk getting a paper cut or staple cut ripping open the box. Take a Victor340 and spend 1 1/2 hours gasket matching it and doing some radius work in the plenum then you have a good intake.
 
IMM Engines facebook page says the heads flow 290cfm @ .500 lift I would think that cam should make more than 439hp with those heads



if you go by TrickFlows numbers they say [email protected] and [email protected] lift. by time you take pushrod deflection and the dreaded small block pushrod angle how long do you think that "dinky" cam is spending at .500 lift. Not very long.
 
IMM Engines facebook page says the heads flow 290cfm @ .500 lift I would think that cam should make more than 439hp with those heads
What is the compression ratio?

The thing here is, at least IMO, that even at the lift the cam has, there’s no real cylinder feeding time. The head is seeing only like 80% of the lift on the curve that sees the lower lift twice and barley gets into the peak lift score it rapidly flys past.

If the lift was increased, generously!, the power would respond. I also believe that more duration would be a huge plus. Adding in cylinder filling “time” would be great.

Also, as mentioned, an RPM up top a head like this (or likewise a fully ported set of RPM heads) is hampering the ultimate power output of the engine. While great for torque production, HP suffers because the intake, as cast, OOTB, is a serious limitation on best performance HP wise. Even if the intake is well ported it cuts the top end off.
 
I think you are right, I think even with a small increase in lift, there would be a big improvement. I would like to see something in the .550 to .575 on the intake. Also, this is getting the range where a small single plane might be good, even for a street engine.
More lift?
More the merry!
 
The Quote AndyF about the headers, "I think those are 1 3/4 Schoenfeld sprint car headers but I bought them a long time ago so I'm not positive.'
As far as more cam and lift, I think that is kind of the conclusion that they are thinking. This engine is for a street car, so a good cam for it. That said, Blueprint is getting 445 HP/500 Torque with Eddy's and a flat tappet, and ATK is getting 465HP/535 torque with a similar hydraulic roller with Eddy's for comparison.

Stop comparing dyno numbers from different dynos.
 
Maybe something around 250 @ .050 and 650ish lift on a 108 would make more power and still be streetable ?
 
My opinion is that people were expecting something magical to happen when the TF heads were substituted for something like RPM heads on a very mild street build...... and it didn’t happen.
Which just points out that there really aren’t any magic parts, and it’s all about the combination.

The true test, again IMO, to see the viability, or possible benefit, of using the TF heads on a mild build like this vs an RPM head...... is to test them both on the same motor, back to back...... and both run ootb.

With the Greys build, it would be interesting to know who made the decisions on the combo, and whether or not there was a conversation about what the expected power output would be.

I think a combo more like Toulenes is going to better exploit the attributes of the TF heads.
But I’m sure there will be plenty of dyno data sprinkling out over the next few months for people to mull over.
 
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Stop comparing dyno numbers from different dynos.

Fair enough, it's just numbers for thought. It is just like comparing flow numbers from different benches, you are going to get a different number, but still get a general idea of flow even though they do not come from the same bench.
 
I dont get why guys give up so much performance to build a combo thats “ streetable”
Just guessing, but i bet 90% of people i have met that have muscle cars use them only in fair weather, non rainy days, and don't take them on long trips.
Some might argue, but that has been my experience
I have a street strip car. My cam is 260@50 and my convertor flashes 5000
I can drive it as far as i want or desire to drive a 50 year old car without A/C in the summertime
I wouldnt drive it further if it had a 230@50 cam and 3000 stall convertor. So my thought is why give up all the power if you enjoy taking your car to the track, like i do.
Gas mileage is of zero concern to me. I have a daily driver(s) for that with air, cruise and a nice sound system i can listen to while getting 30mpg.
In short, i think people “ overthink” what is and isn't streetable.
I understand some people have a nice 71 Duster with a slant 6 they drive everywhere, and it might be the only car they have.
This isn't directed at them. Its more to the guys that talk on these kinds of forums and are giving up a lot of performance they dont have to.
I race everything i have ever owned. I also drive everything. Difference is, i am not out to prove reliability on a power tour, but respect people who do.
No way i would ever buy a nice set of heads like trick flows and stick a tiny “ streeter” cam in it and make a pooch out of a high potential combination
Rant over.... lol
 
Would have been interesting to slide a typical bracket race type solid cam in it to see what happened........ with no other changes to the combo.

It starts out strong with the big tq number....... then just runs out of duration and the power drops off.
 
If I was this so called engine building expert and someone brought these parts to me I would show them the door and hold it for them. I got no time for that and probably would have recommended Speedmaster heads for that combo and saved him a few bucks.
 
If I was this so called engine building expert and someone brought these parts to me I would show them the door and hold it for them. I got no time for that and probably would have recommended Speedmaster heads for that combo and saved him a few bucks.

Couldnt agree more. Hey, you gonna be at Monster Mopar old buddy?
 
I dont get why guys give up so much performance to build a combo thats “ streetable”
Just guessing, but i bet 90% of people i have met that have muscle cars use them only in fair weather, non rainy days, and don't take them on long trips.
Some might argue, but that has been my experience
I have a street strip car. My cam is 260@50 and my convertor flashes 5000
I can drive it as far as i want or desire to drive a 50 year old car without A/C in the summertime
I wouldnt drive it further if it had a 230@50 cam and 3000 stall convertor. So my thought is why give up all the power if you enjoy taking your car to the track, like i do.
Gas mileage is of zero concern to me. I have a daily driver(s) for that with air, cruise and a nice sound system i can listen to while getting 30mpg.
In short, i think people “ overthink” what is and isn't streetable.
I understand some people have a nice 71 Duster with a slant 6 they drive everywhere, and it might be the only car they have.
This isn't directed at them. Its more to the guys that talk on these kinds of forums and are giving up a lot of performance they dont have to.
I race everything i have ever owned. I also drive everything. Difference is, i am not out to prove reliability on a power tour, but respect people who do.
No way i would ever buy a nice set of heads like trick flows and stick a tiny “ streeter” cam in it and make a pooch out of a high potential combination
Rant over.... lol
this is why my street car always turns heads and gets thumbs up, even the occasional ear covering from kids. I only drive it when it's nice, so I made it fun.
 
this is why my street car always turns heads and gets thumbs up, even the occasional ear covering from kids. I only drive it when it's nice, so I made it fun.

Me too. If it dont make some steam to me it isnt worth the hassle of workin on it, storing it in the winter, insuring it, you name it
 
If I was this so called engine building expert and someone brought these parts to me I would show them the door and hold it for them. I got no time for that and probably would have recommended Speedmaster heads for that combo and saved him a few bucks.

There isn’t anything inherently “wrong” with that build.
If I were in the engine building business...... you know...... to make money....... and someone wanted that exact engine built ..... I’d build it.
 
Fair enough, it's just numbers for thought. It is just like comparing flow numbers from different benches, you are going to get a different number, but still get a general idea of flow even though they do not come from the same bench.


I trust Greys numbers. It's bullshit to say all Dynos read differently. They may show raw numbers that are different, but the corrected numbers should be less than 1%, just like a flow bench.

Liars are liars and they will lie any way they can. It's not the dyno's fault if the numbers lie. That is an operator issue.

If Greys dyno says it made what he says it made, that's what it made.

When someone says don't compare flow bench so ready Dynos you can know they don't know much about using measuring tools, which is all they are.
 
Maybe something around 250 @ .050 and 650ish lift on a 108 would make more power and still be streetable ?

It’s all about the combo & what your building it for. When I seen the above combo with that power out out from the cam, I did t think it was bad, just a good head under utilized.

Since the duration dictates the rpm range your power band and it is going in a car to be operating in that band, I don’t see much sense upping the duration for the given perameters.
(What ever they are)

Jumping 20*’s in duration is a lot for a vehicle designed for a 230* duration cam. That would need a bunch more gear and certainly a bunch in the converter.

While I think it’ll wake the engine up it probably won’t be happy in the car as a combo.


There isn’t anything inherently “wrong” with that build.
I agree & like said above, perhaps someone was expecting something magical? It’s all about the combo.
 
I just got back from dropping of my block at the grey's Automotive machine shop when the subject came up about the Trick Flow heads. He had just dynoed a set on a mild 408. Cam was a Comp hydraulic roller 230/236 @ .50, Eldelbrock air gap, and Holley Sniper EFI. Horsepower was 439, with torque of 470. He was disappointed in the numbers. His thought with those flow number he would see closer to 500 on each. They have also talked to a couple of other shops that have done similar builds, and they get comparable figures. Right now dyno sheets are being sent to Trick Flow to see if something can be done. The leading thought is that these heads may be too big for a street engine, but are waiting for Trick Flow to respond.


First off, those heads are TOO FING SMALL for 400 inches. Anyone that thinks they are too big has spent too much time burning the hippie lettuce.

Second, as I say all the time, you can't go by flow numbers. That engine would be 70-80 HP better with a set of W2 heads with nothing but a quality valve job.

The intake manifold was wrong. So was using EFI like that on that intake.

Again, if Grey says that's what it makes, I believe him.

But to say those heads are too big is *** backwards and full blown retarded.
 
Couldnt agree more. Hey, you gonna be at Monster Mopar old buddy?


I don't think I am going to make it again. When he moved the date it really messed me up as we have three 15000.00 races and a 5000.00 race 50 minutes from my house at Keystone. I was doing pretty good last year when a wheelie got me out of the groove a little and I lost by .004 so I got her tamed down now.
 
He said
“Hippie lettuce!!!!!”
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Man! I’m gonna ride that saying like a $2 buck hoe all the way to China!
 
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