I guess the rumor I heard was true. Pathetic but true. I guess we all saw it coming. I would say more but I’d hate to ruin my own post.
TrickFlow intakes. Not what guys want to see
- Thread starter pittsburghracer
- Start date
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B3422w5
Well-Known Member
there are a couple super victors floating around for sale. One on facebook marketplace, one on Moparts..reasonable, i just bought a Victor 340 from a guy on here.
Talking to edelbrock, the Victor 340 wont be available anytime soon…certainly not this summer!
I posted on here when summit had super victors on stock as my buddy bought one. They all come with the EFI bosses now (some instilled) and labeled EFI on them. That wasn’t to long ago.
B3422w5
Well-Known Member
what are you disagreeing about?
B3422w5
Well-Known Member
yep. Just talking about used Super Victors. No Victors anywhere, new. Very hard to find used.
moparstud440
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately I see this becoming a common trend. Imagine finally gathering the funds for a build but now you have to wait 6+ months for parts if you can even get them at all. Or worse yet breaking something mid race season and your season is pretty much over because you have to wait 6 months for replacement parts. I see that used part value marketing going up because of this. Pretty sure it will deter some guys from building stuff as some don't want to wait and if will loose interest by the time stuff becomes available. If you are planning on building anything better plan well in advance and order what you can now, as I'm sure those "estimated" dates will be pushed back a few times before the item is actually shipped.
ultimatejay
Well-Known Member
How hard is it to make a foundry and why?
ultimatejay
Well-Known Member
just CNC them then. Thats the way of the future anyways. Cost will be high but better than waiting a year for a manifold
Phreakish
Well-Known Member
No one does production lost-foam. It's a backyard hack way of casting.
Investment casting is the way production parts are mostly made, and it starts with wax patterns that get melted/burned out of the refractory molds prior to pouring.
3D printing molds is a niche process that is pointless. V-process casting can do it just as rapidly with tooling made from wood, and has been around for decades. The only people that 3d print molds are dorks making satellite parts at a University and know as much about manufacturing as they do about getting laid (not much).
Permanent molds, and die-casting are different tech and don't typically play well with high-strength aluminum alloys.
Sand casting is still common with aluminum, but surface finish tends to suck. The things that better surface finishes cost labor, or materials.
Tooling from one process won't work in another. Tooling for the same process may not work in another foundry, somtimes it does, often it does not. "Moving tools" is fraught with issues.
Aluminum prices are going through the roof, and will go even higher before things change. I expect most foundries will only be focusing on their highest demand items for the foreseeable future. Even then, expect costs to double vs 2 years ago...
I wanted a good steak to grill..but I have to save my $$$$ for a while to afford it!
ultimatejay
Well-Known Member
LETS GO BRANDON
Phreakish
Well-Known Member
I'd love to see anyone CNC an intake manifold. It can be done with multi-axis machines, but each one might turn out an intake per day, maybe two. Out of a $2m machine. I don't think anyone would be willing to pay those kinds of prices.
Or you could make something that looks like it was designed for play-skool, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work all that well - and it would still require a $2k block of billet to start.
You could machine parts of it, and weld it together - except a good welder is not cheap, and a cheap welder can't make a manifold.
Casting is about the only process that is capable of making a good intake manifold for our engines. But the processes for casting are mature, and been around long enough that no one is going to have some major break-through that fixes the long lead times and tooling expenditures that castings entail.
Not only that, but with demand high and labor being non-existent, foundries have to prioritize work. It takes the same amount of labor to make a 50lbs casting as it does a 4oz casting - guess who gets priority? CAT, John Deere, and the big auto players will be able to suck up all available capacity for the next 2-3 years. That leaves no overhead for us little guys - so I don't expect anything to change soon - or at least not before the recession.
ultimatejay
Well-Known Member
Sheetmetal intake?
Phreakish
Well-Known Member
Big time.
A 16x7x12 chunk of 6061 would weigh about 131 lbs. Now pay to machine off 95 lbs of it. Recycle price is what, $.40 per pound? Billet cost is what, $8 per pound (as of yesterday morning)? So $1,050 just for the raw material, and then go cut 30% of it off, and get back $.05 on the dollar for the waste. Now pay for the fixtures, tools, programming, and operators to run it. That's a $5k intake.
Phreakish
Well-Known Member
Intakes require some of the best welders, or a moderate welder going very slow. Even with pre-fabbed parts, you're looking at an employer paying $150-200/hr (with taxes and benefits) for a guy to knock one out. Probably 3-4hrs worth of work (being conservative) per intake. Still gotta pay that $8/lb for the raw materials, so you're looking at $300 in material. So that's what, $750-1100 production cost. So you can expect to pay $1500-2200 retail.
I don't think anyone is going to start that as a production method anytime soon.
Phreakish
Well-Known Member
3d printing is neat, but truly high-heat tolerant materials don't exist. Thermal ratings for polymers are based on deflection limits, not strength like metals. A 120C rated material will basically turn into a rubber balloon in the coolant passages, and likely the ports, at around 90C, and that's with 3-5 minutes of exposure.
Additive manufacturing yields parts with lots of air holes. They tend to be porous and often times aren't air-tight. They'll leak if under pressure like a bad die casting. That, and the materials aren't a thermo-set. They'll reflow if reheated. Underhood temps would cook them and turn them into a pile of goop. If the material can actually take the heat (like PEEK), then it's likely to shatter when the weather turns cold and you put it up in the shop for the winter.
Sheet metal can be done, but the sheet metal costs as much as the raw material for the castings. Even if you cut the weight in half, a 15lb intake would start with $120 worth of material. Expect that to cost the consumer at least $250, and closer to $400 - and that's before paying the welder. Robotic ones are neat, but can cost significant amounts to get setup to be truly consistent with a critical part like a manifold. Then the manufacturer would likely have to pressure test each one. With what? Even if it's water, here comes the EPA to sniff your drain pipes. Got any flux or slag or elemental metals being washed off the part by the pressure treating fluids? Guess you need a water treatment plant. Oh, you want to use compressed air? Need to do it automated with the part in a blast-resistant room, inspected 4x a month by L&I - you've got insurance for it to right? Oh, they won't insure a bomb enclosure? Weird.. guess they'll just have to leak then.
Anything CAN be done, but it comes with costs. Lots of those costs are driven by things the general public has no knowledge of, and for which there is zero transparency. So of course we don't know about it...
China won't care - they'll use Trickflow's images to market a hunk of **** that people will call "just as good" and think they've got a deal because it was cheap on black friday. It could be a total turd and half the buyers would swear their cars are 2s faster just to avoid being made fun of. No time slips will materialize, of course.
goldduster318
Overzealous Car Modifier
To be honest, I can't tell the difference between that manifold and the Super Victor EFI on my engine other than the EFI provisions.
Really surprised they haven't gone to making plastic intake manifolds. Tooling costs more for plastic but the material is less. Would have to have o-ring type gaskets which might be better anyway. The only concern I would have is the water crossover in the front of the block since all the OE plastic manifolds I can think of are typically dry (GM LS as a good example)
Really surprised they haven't gone to making plastic intake manifolds. Tooling costs more for plastic but the material is less. Would have to have o-ring type gaskets which might be better anyway. The only concern I would have is the water crossover in the front of the block since all the OE plastic manifolds I can think of are typically dry (GM LS as a good example)
Phreakish
Well-Known Member
Nylon 6 is one of the few good materials for the application, and nylon has been in shortage since 2017. It's not cheap. In fact, many of them cost per unit volume similar to aluminum.
Not only that, but the injection mold tooling for such an animal would be orders of magnitude more cash. Hot sprue runners alone for a mold that size would cost as much as a casting tool..
Plus, most people wouldn't trust a plastic intake. And what happens when someone puts one on without blocking the heat crossover? Heck, even blocked it would melt the flange. Now you need aftermarket heads to match the intake..
No easy answers, sadly.
Ironracer
Gearhead
Brother, I figure they can shove it.... lol
I was at small Foundry in Tampa. Guys pretty cool, a Car guy. One of his leads is a Biker. They do runs of intakes for Flathead Fords.....
My job? pulling the green (Heavy) sand castings outta off the conveyer after the over, and putting them on another to cool. About 70#s each. No Problem.
B3422w5
Well-Known Member
millions of plastic intake manifolds on production cars. I would say people do trust them
goldduster318
Overzealous Car Modifier
It can't be in much of a shortage, there is a lot of PA6 and PA66 material in basically every car made...I work at an auto supplier and we use it and I've not heard of it being a problem.
The tooling for a lot of the stuff we do, the tooling is maybe 1.5-2x the price of an aluminum tool, but its easy to find someone who will make it. It clearly is less expensive. Here's a plastic intake, Ford, less than $200!
Ford Performance Parts M-9424-M50BR Ford Performance Parts Boss 302 5.0L Modular Intake Manifolds | Summit Racing
Also who's running a super victor or trick flow and stock heads???
Phreakish
Well-Known Member
It's different when the engine is designed for it.
Lots of plastic intakes known to fail too.
Phreakish
Well-Known Member
Auto oems are first in line. Everyone else gets table scraps. Force majuer has been in effect off and on for years in many industries.
It's not impossible to get in other industries, but it's priced accordingly, is my point. For lots of parts, it's cheaper and easier to machine it from aluminum than to inject it if I make less than 100k parts per year.
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