**Twin Turbo 67 Dart Project**

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Hey Lou; I have been in contact with these guys for an option to the megasquirt that is reasonable as well.

http://www.affordable-fuel-injection.com/

They say that they have built several dual tb systems,like I want and that it works very well. I am hoping theier engineer gives me a responce soon so I can have a price nailed down. It might not be bad. All I need is a harness and control box.
 
Hey Louis, I am sad to hear of the trials your going through. I have been there done that and I have to say that when you finally lick this problem it will be a proud moment! If you need a run stand to run it on I may be able to help you until you figure it out. Let me know.

Cuudak, I hear you about the light hearted smack talking, its all fun. However if you think that your going to fire your car up and it will kick *** with a carb then you may be in for a rude awakening. I have run both carb (quite a few times on different cars) and EFI and I have to say both can be equally frustrating. Fortunately you have many years of mine and Andy's research to get you in the ballpark. Carbs can be a great mystery and have frustrating problems. Just ask my buddy who blows through a carb on his Procharged Ford. He has one jet that is 10 (!) sizes bigger than the rest and has smoked two engines till he figured it out.

As a side note, while your waiting for your big single turbo to spool Maddart will probably be half way down track already. Just sayin'
 
turbodart68 said:
Cuudak, I hear you about the light hearted smack talking, its all fun. However if you think that your going to fire your car up and it will kick *** with a carb then you may be in for a rude awakening. I have run both carb (quite a few times on different cars) and EFI and I have to say both can be equally frustrating. Fortunately you have many years of mine and Andy's research to get you in the ballpark. Carbs can be a great mystery and have frustrating problems. Just ask my buddy who blows through a carb on his Procharged Ford. He has one jet that is 10 (!) sizes bigger than the rest and has smoked two engines till he figured it out.

As a side note, while your waiting for your big single turbo to spool Maddart will probably be half way down track already. Just sayin'
Click to expand...

Its all good!
My Pops is a wiz with Holley carbs. With his 40+ years knowledge and a bunch of research on the "Crutch" among you guys info and others I am confident we can handle the fight for the proper AFR's. I have also read for countless hours in the carb section over on TTF. Lots of "DO's and Don'ts". I never once said I would just start it up and roll with it? I am totally positive that my carb'd engine will start with no issues once I turn the key though. Once the engine has run for a bit and the turbo is on then the tedious process of tuning will begin. It will all come together with a bit of patience and hours of tinkering.

I highly doubt Louis and I will ever see one another in the real world. I live a loooong way from Cali! But if the day ever come it would be something to see I bet. As far as spooling, I have a "Sneeky Pete" on the shelf if its ever needed good for around 75hp. I think that would take care of any low end issues.

We all will see soon enough! I may melt the engine in the process? Who knows? Its all part of the game. I still have a mean 440 for backup LoL!

I am in no way against what Louis is doing! I can't wait to see what numbers he will put down once he gets this beast going. I don't have the cash to spend on dyno time so my tuning will happen at the local tracks and backroads.
 
Shady Dell SBM 417CI, Single Turbo 1214HP, No intercooler, Blow Thru Carb, Meth Injection. Check out the Carb Hat.......... 16.1PSI Boost

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CD2zpa5IjY&feature=related"]417" Mopar Turbo Dyno Pull 1214 HP - YouTube[/ame]
 
needsaresto said:
Hey Lou; I have been in contact with these guys for an option to the megasquirt that is reasonable as well.

http://www.affordable-fuel-injection.com/

They say that they have built several dual tb systems,like I want and that it works very well. I am hoping theier engineer gives me a responce soon so I can have a price nailed down. It might not be bad. All I need is a harness and control box.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you got a plan & that is a good thing. I am curious how much their set up will cost.

On another note, I did talk to the MS Tuner today that has over 10 Years Experience with Megasquirts, we talked for about 45 minutes or so. He questioned me to the max and told me I probably will not need his assistance because he feels where I am headed is the solution to the problem. There is a problem with the MS3 having Low Tooth Count Issues. The Fast Distributor has 8 Teeth that are 90* apart "Low Tooth Count Wheel" It does not send enough information to the ECU and will cause a misfire at every cylinder. The fix to that problem is to run a 36:1 Crank Trigger along with using the Dizzy for the cam signal only. He also told me that Rotor Phasing is Absolutely Critical and if it is off by 20* from the pin in the cap there more than likely be spark jump. This along with the #1 Crank Tooth Angle being Dead on and using the 36:1 Wheel should fix the problem.


When the 8 LS Coils were used the results were the same. He told me that the reasoning was we still were using the Fast Dizzy that has the 'Low tooth Count" 8 teeth --90* apart, and would make the results the same Regardless of how many coils we were running.

So here is what he told me.

1) Run a 36:1 Wheel
2) Make sure to Phase the Rotor in EXACTLY in the middle of Pin#1 inside the Dizzy with the Crank Timing mark right at 20-25* BTDC on #1, Lock the Distributor down and DO NOT MOVE IT AGAIN!!
3) Get the EXACT #1 Crank Tooth Angle by getting TDC on #1, Rolling the engine backwards to say 60* BTDC and line up Tooth #1 on the 36:1 Wheel Dead center of the Hall Sensor & input that 60* into your ECU ignition settings for the tooth #1 angle. "DONT EVER MAKE A CHANGE TO THE TOOTH #1 SETTING ONCE IT IS CALCULATED"
4) Make sure the #1 Crank Tooth Angle and the Cam Signal Do not happen at the same time. 30-40* apart is good number.
 
Mad Dart;
That information sounds like it is in line with what you were already thinking. Have you been able to locate the parts you need? What distributor are you going to use? Since you are retaining the distributor for the cam signal are you going to use a single coil and plug wires or are you going to try COP?
~Michael
 
Mad Dart said:
Shady Dell SBM 417CI, Single Turbo 1214HP, No intercooler, Blow Thru Carb, Meth Injection. Check out the Carb Hat.......... 16.1PSI Boost
Click to expand...

TEASE!:D

I wonder how this Spectre hat is gonna turn out. That one looks even smaller.
 
Dartman1969 said:
Mad Dart;
That information sounds like it is in line with what you were already thinking. Have you been able to locate the parts you need? What distributor are you going to use? Since you are retaining the distributor for the cam signal are you going to use a single coil and plug wires or are you going to try COP?
~Michael
Click to expand...

Yes I ordered all the parts. The 36:1 Wheel Should be here in about 5 Days. I will be using a MOPAR Lean Burn Dizzy, it has a VR sensor built into it. It should be here in 2 Days. From Talking to the MS Tuner he says I need to be careful because the signal sometimes can be week with the VR Sensor. He Recommends Setting the Gap to the Wheel Really Tight so this does not happen. I also purchased a Hall sensor that I can Mod Into the Lean Burn Dizzy so I will have 2 options for the Cam Signal if I need to switch it around.

I havent made my mind up yet on the Single Coil or COP. Still tossing that one around.
 
Mad Dart;
I read your earlier posts on the VR/Hall effect differences and found it very informative. Glad that you have parts located and on there way. I like the idea of the COP but would be concerned about custom making all those plug wires and running all the wire to remote mount them out of sight. Would be neat to see it done though. Keep us posted.
~Michael
 
saapbaad said:
Did you ever consider the MSD trigger wheel? Even though you have a 36:1 on the way: http://www.msdignition.com/Products...-_Chrysler_Small_Block_Crank_Trigger_Kit.aspx
Click to expand...

Yes I did, The Flying Magnet a very good looking piece but it is way too expensive $300.00 and is not as accurate as a 36:1 wheel. There are only 4 magnets so you only get a reading to the ECU every 90* of crank rotation. 90*x8=720*, 4 stroke engine.

A 36:1 wheel gets information to the ECU every 10* of Crank Rotation. So it will out perform the MSD Flying Magnet easily.

The Flying Magnet will send 8 Bits of Information to the ECU in 720* Rotation of the Crankshaft. So in theory the Flying Magnet is a "Low Tooth Count Wheel"

The 36:1 wheel will send 72 Bits of information to the ECU in 720* Rotation of the Crankshaft.

A 36:1 wheel, Hall Sensor and me making my own bracket in about 1 hour is less than $90.00 total.

Or use this one here and do a small modification on the threads...

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/crtrpibrs.html

Using this Hall Sensor here.....

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/hall-effect-threaded-body-crankshaft-position-sensor-p-489.html
 
This is Josh's car, the guy I met at the Chassis Dyno. He is doing a partial run here trying to get his license. The car broke a Heim on the Anti-Roll Bar and he had to let off at 5/8 Track and coasted thru the beams at 6.17 at 84.79 MPH. This is not even with a full tune up. 11PSI and it blows thru the converter............. This is an LS7, Twin GT45 ebay turbo's, air to air intercooler on e85. 9:1 Compression. I bet he will knock at least 1 second off that time on a full run when he can stay in it without lifting.
No headers either, STOCK Exhaust Manifolds facing forward!!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRHDkowOJe0&feature"]Turbo Camaro - YouTube[/ame]
 
All parts have arrived except the Hall sensor for the cam signal........

Hopefully it will be here tomorrow, then the fab work begins.
 
Sensor did not show up. I took the Crank Trigger Wheel to my friends shop who has a Lathe to open up the pilot hole the same size as the Crank pulley. I am having him drill it for 12 holes in the wheel so I can adjust it 30* either way on the damper. The Hall Sensor Bracket that I will be making will also be adjustable up to 20* in each direction.

I also ordered a fan spacer that I will use behind the water pump pulley. I had 1/4" of spacers behind that pulley to line up with the crank. The Trigger wheel is 1/4" Thick so I now need 1/2" so it will line up. I have not fabricated the final Alternator brackets so I am not concerned with it lining up correctly.

Here is the spacer....

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FLX-504/
 
needsaresto said:
Would a magnum distributor work?
Click to expand...

I don't know. Supposedly some of the Magnum's come with a VR Sensor in the Dizzy.

Going to use a Modified "Mad Dart" version of the Lean Burn Distributor to get a Clean Cam Signal!

There will be a second sensor just like this one used for the Crank Trigger.

I ordered a Nascar Reluctor that is Steel and I am going to cut 7 of the 8 teeth off it along with drilling and tapping it for 2 Set Screws so it can be clocked and phased correctly. The New Reluctor will be installed Upside down and the Dizzy Backing plate will come off. Then I will drill the side case of the distributor and install the sensor you see in the pictures. The Sensor will clear the cap with the reluctor upside down and the backing plate removed.


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Great......I was checking out the pictures of your car...and now I've drooled all over my laptop........man that's nice.
 
CUUDAK said:
Just askn',
do you think removing those seven teeth will screw the balance up and wipe out the upper shaft bearing in the Dizzy?
Click to expand...

Well Matt at diyautotune does it all the time on all his Dizzy Conversions for the cam signal. He usually uses the stock reluctor and VR Sensor on the Mopars. My thinking is that it wont mess it up because it's not like it is hanging 4" off the shaft, it is pretty close to it like 5/8" or so. I guess I will be finding out soon. The bearings in the Distributor are a Brass Bushing type. Oil splashes up on the shaft past the teflon spacer and works its way to the bearings.
 
Installed the Sensor in the Dizzy today. Came out very nice and it should work well. I am still waiting for the New Reluctor to get here so I can install it.
You can see in the picture that I will be putting the dizzy shaft in a Lathe and taking about 1/4" of material off so the new reluctor will slide down a bit further, it is probably not necessary but I want to try and keep the sensor right in the center of the Reluctor. As you can see I used 2 washers in the inside of the distributor. I ended up cutting about 1/4" off the bottom of the first washer to use as a spacer because of the offset you see inside the dizzy. I did have to trim the Distributor cap a bit but no big deal. Going to order a few HEI Caps for the real deal and I will pre notch both of them so they are ready to go.


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Mad Dart said:
First off you would be wrong I did not pay less than $200.00 for 2 Turbo's. Those ones are the CHEAPER POS's that you are talking about. I don't believe you are installing these turbo's on your customers cars. They are the less expensive units that even LOOK CHEAP per your comment above. Your comment about EBAY Turbo's is a Broad one putting EVERY one of them in the same box.

Also the wastegates that I am using have the EXACT SAME DIAPHRAM in them as the $600+++ Dollar TIAL gates. The replacement is to use it specifically!
How do I know this? I tore them apart and inspected them AFTER I did all the research. The valve is SOLID STAINLESS STEEL and the guides are also. The SEAL is made from VITON which is the exact same material used in your high dollar Valve Seals when you get your heads done.


Also this BUILD has nothing to do about being SHORT on CASH because I have Plenty of $$ and can build WHATEVER I want! Those on this site who know me know this is a FACT. I could also PAY someone to do all this work but I CHOOSE not to. I enjoy doing it and it is a release for me.

This build is about the AVERAGE GUY that does not have a bunch of $$, he too can build a set up like this without the BIG bucks that it would usually take to do it.

So you are saying you have installed one of these EXACT TURBO's and they failed??? Please start YOUR OWN thread on the subject with Documentation, PICTURES and DATA to back it up! Don't use key strokes to do it!!

Well I have done my research and most have had great success with these turbo's. Of course there are some that have failed but Garret, Precision, Master Power etc and the like have had the same failures but nobody wants to talk about that after spending BIG $$ on them. Even your high dollar wastegates and blow off valves have had issues and if you say any different you would be kidding yourself.

No the engine will be dyno'd without them, the engine in the car is a mock engine. The Turbo's will be torn apart inspected, cleaned and then installed on the car and taken to the Chassis Dyno for tuning.
This is NOT my first Rodeo.

So you are saying that you need to spend BIG BUCKS to make reliable Power?? If that is the case you need to look here............

4 Seasons running in the 8's on JUNK PIECE OF **** GT45Yk2004 EBAY TURBO's with NO Problems as of Yet and he NEVER took them apart and even inspected them.

YouTube - Mike's 1967 Ebay Twin Turbo Powered BBC

There are several guys here that use them with Great Success for example a guy running a 327 Chevy no turbo specific camshaft, heads that flow only 240cfm with a blow thru carb knocking down 9.80 quarter mile times consistantly with ONE of these exact turbo's. No problems EVER!!

This thread is dedicated to the Turbo's I am using and there is NOBODY that I have found that has HANDS ON EXPERIENCE with this EXACT TURBO that I am using that the Seals Leaked, came apart or anything else. It is all HEARSAY from NON PLAYERS that like to shoot their mouths off on the internet. The guys that say EBAY turbo's are JUNK are putting every EBAY turbo in the same box which is pretty unfair to say the least.

I can see it now a guy working in his garage all excited about his new toy. Hitting the throttle while his friend is under the hood and the turbo sucks up a RAG. or HEY hand me the timing light, he turns to grab it and BOUNCES a wrench off the Inducer. Well these turbo's are JUNK and the story goes on...................

http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=96046.0

There are also ALOT of Diesel guys pushing these EXACT Turbo's to over 55lbs of Boost beating the CRAP out of them and they LIVE!! Do your own research and you will see.

I believe that MOST of the failures WE are talking about are INSTALLER Caused from people that don't have a clue what they are doing and NEVER should be attempting a task like this on their own. Just LOOK at the Pictures of these people set ups and installation jobs and you will know right away they NEVER even should have attempted the task.

Please don't get me wrong I do not claim to be an expert but I have done enough research to Prove my point over that last 2 months on the parts I have chosen to use.

This build is costing NOBODY but myself time and $$$ for everyone else to learn from. If these Turbo's take a crap on me then that's what happens. In the process all who see it will learn from what I am doing. Just so you know I prove doubters wrong on a REGULAR basis and that is what this build is all about. I will post ALL my findings and I will have Documentation, Pictures, DATA and the Experience to Back EVERYTHING up with REAL WORLD findings!! NOT a keyboard and the words of someone else.

Also with the kind of questions you are starting threads about that I just found here............

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=102825

I do not believe you have ALL the experience you say you do! I believe MOST will agree with me and take take your post as a GRAIN OF SALT just as I thought BEFORE I found your thread ........ KEYBOARD ASASSINATION of all ebay turbo's in general with NO REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE!

That is all I gotta say about that. So I am carrying on..................
Click to expand...


im with you i have seen first hand what ebay turbos can do. a guy ive talked to a guy at some car shows i go to who has a ebay turboed civic who has a total of 2000$ in his intire build that has stomped a brand new ctsv pushin close to 600 hp
 
I found something out in the last few days on theturboforums.com , apparently when running my -10 Fuel line thru the Regulator first it is a mistake. I guess it regulates the fuel pressure before it has a chance to hit the Injectors and can cause a Lean Condition. Guys have actually burnt up pistons on new engines doing it the way I have it now. So I am going to change it up a bit and go with Dual -8 Fuel lines and feed the front of the rails first. I wish I would have found this out sooner cause its going to cost me $200.00 to make it right with all black matching fittings. At least the next guy will have the opportunity to learn from my mistakes.

On the Dyno the Fuel Pressure was acting sluggish it seemed and I am betting it was bleeding off the fuel like mentioned in the studying I have been doing about this subject.

So I will be coming from the fuel pumps with a 10an fuel line to a 10an//8an Y, then running 2-8an fuel lines to the front of the Fuel Rails so they get fed first and regulated afterwards. At the back of the Fuel Rails by the firewall the drivers side Fuel Rail will be hooked up the same as it is to the Regulator but with an 8an fuel line instead. The Regulator will stay in its same location but the 10an Inlet will be capped off and not used anymore. The 8an return from the bottom of the regulator will still be used as is.

Learning Experience I will never forget!
 
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