It will be interesting to see performance data on the TFs... I am surprised no one has posted anything yet.
W2 Head education
- Thread starter early A Bob
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It will be interesting to see performance data on the TFs... I am surprised no one has posted anything yet.
Just need the person that built one.....
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
I just want to reiterate there is WAY more to making horsepower than bulk flow. Way more.
Just because a port can flow 300 CFM doesn't mean it will make the same power as a better designed port. It's as simple as that. There is nothing you can do to the production architecture to make it compete with the W2. The same can be said about the W2 verses the W5. The W2 is down on power to the W5 and there isn't much you can do about it, even if you take the W2 to the limit.
When I get home, I'll take a couple of pictures of a W2 head that can make power at 8k plus. I keep it for reference. It's as ugly as a bent toilet, but they worked. And they still didn't make the power of a W5.
The problem with the W5 is that bullshit chamber and it takes an *** load of work to get them to make power.
Seeing as how I am running W2s ( or will be once car is done..) I am happy to hear this. However I still believe people will turn to the TFs because of ease of use/percieved cost and advertised flow numbers .
I fully understand your point on #s vs power.
I fully understand your point on #s vs power.
B3422w5
Well-Known Member
Its far from a given the Trick flow wont be capable of making similar power to a W2.
I cant say i know personally of any W2’s that have made any more than 650 on typical bracket build i have heard of.
Gotta believe the TF can get in that neighborhood as well.
I had W5’s that the new owner( after i had the car/ motor) was able to approach an honest 700 horse with. Track numbers back it up. 140 mph at 3220.
More squeeze, gas ported slugs, and more aggressive roller than i used to make 650 with previously.... 135@ 3350 pounds.
I am gonna make a “ crazy” statement and say when it all shakes out all three of the above heads would ET with a couple of tenths, maybe a hair more.... on optimized motors.
I cant say i know personally of any W2’s that have made any more than 650 on typical bracket build i have heard of.
Gotta believe the TF can get in that neighborhood as well.
I had W5’s that the new owner( after i had the car/ motor) was able to approach an honest 700 horse with. Track numbers back it up. 140 mph at 3220.
More squeeze, gas ported slugs, and more aggressive roller than i used to make 650 with previously.... 135@ 3350 pounds.
I am gonna make a “ crazy” statement and say when it all shakes out all three of the above heads would ET with a couple of tenths, maybe a hair more.... on optimized motors.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
I wouldn't disagree with any of this, except to say as the RPM goes up, the heads will further sort themselves out. The W2 will support more RPM/displacement than an stock architecture head and the W5 will do better than the W2.
Like I said, the W5 will make power, but the chamber sucks *** and they love a steep valve job.
Where is @A body
IIRC, LOL, He ran a W5 for some time.
IIRC, LOL, He ran a W5 for some time.
I think when it all shakes down..........W2-W5 value will drop.
If you can buy a TF that will flow as well or out flow, in stockport shape. And the TF while be less expensive and readily available. If you Not trying to get the most HP as you can......you while sell them w2s for a simpler TF head.
This is all speculation until we see some live real data available.
If you can buy a TF that will flow as well or out flow, in stockport shape. And the TF while be less expensive and readily available. If you Not trying to get the most HP as you can......you while sell them w2s for a simpler TF head.
This is all speculation until we see some live real data available.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
It probably will. Because Chrysler guys are notorious cheap. They cry when they can't run stock junk and wonder why everyone moves on to GM architecture. Those guys will spend money.
I doubt you will find a run of the mill 400 inch SBC making 500 HP using anything but shaft rockers. The Chrysler guys are doing backwards. They want to build 400 plus inch engines and throw magnum heads on it with stud mounted rockers. They were marginal when they were designed. Today, they are downright silly.
Again, I've never understood the theory that making more power is bad. That's just dumb. On,y Chrysler guys think like that. Not the GM guys. Not the ford guys either.
This is why no one wants to make a block or update a head or anything else. I just learned the other day that Scorpion used to make a pretty damn nice rocker set up for the Chrysler. Granted, they had a **** marketing plan, but they still didn't sell many. It wasn't worth doing it. As I told the guy on the phone, once you have the shafts and rockers designed, it's a short step to make offset intake rockers. He said yup. But who would buy them?
No one. And that's why Chrysler guys get to suck hind tit.
Again, the TF head is great for what it is. On more than about 365-370 inches it's too small. It's probably marginal at that. Put it on 400 inches and it's really hurting. Now, you have to add cam timing, close the LSA to try and help the head, and you've given up Rod ratio so you are trying to swim up the falls. An unported W2 would beat it hands down.
I think for the most part why "we are cheep" has to do with "ONLY Chry" would build aftermarket/performance part for chry.
Chry was the aftermarket for us.
The aftermarket just when, we'll build for GM and Ford but there is no market for chry.
Up until the last 5 -6 years, that was still the case.
We may be classified as cheap because there was no support for us. We had to scround for every part, we need and even that was hard because there was nothing but Fords and Chevs in the wrecking yards.
I truly believe if chry would have mass produced the W2 head. AKA replaced the X head,on production line to W2s This would have been a much different world.
and then the W5 would have been a simple bolt on head.................yeah i know
WAKE HIM UP FROM HIS DREAM!!!!
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I agree. MoPar was the only game in town for a lot of the heavy hitting power making parts. Bro did and Indy cams later to the game, then Edelbrock got on board almost to late with a single head offering that was a bit better than a stock head.
Now that the race blocks are gone from Ma MoPar, it makes me wonder how much OR bad Edelbrock wil take in the *** for the cost of development and not selling to many Victor heads.
Even though we have a aftermarket race block being privately produced and sold for the new and better heads & parts available, way to many have left the game due to being ignored and price gouged with excuses of “You have to pay if you wanna play”, it costs money to go fast.” Etc....
It doesn’t cost any more to make a Chrysler head than it does to make a Chevy head. Once the R&D is done, melting the aluminum stock down into a mild and adding the finishing work is all the same but where paying double with idiotic excuses as to why. They speak with forked tongues with brown goo (that normally comes out of your butt) coming out of there mouth like fresh chop meat out of the grinder at a factory. And they just want you to fork over the dough and notice there shinny teeth.
One of the biggest shakes is when Chrysler gave work to the cheapest bidder to produce an inferior product well known and seen with the small block W5 head. (And a few other parts from that era)
At a time when they could least afford a manufacturing debacle that just about crushed there sales in the after market HP & race avenues.
If you have a good W5 head (or other era crap casting part), you know you have a good thing that NO one else made. But who wants to gamble on purchasing multiple parts to find a good one? Pay the machining 2,3 or 4 times.
Who the hell would put up with that crap?!?!
And then the big wigs wonder why things are the way they are.
Now that the race blocks are gone from Ma MoPar, it makes me wonder how much OR bad Edelbrock wil take in the *** for the cost of development and not selling to many Victor heads.
Even though we have a aftermarket race block being privately produced and sold for the new and better heads & parts available, way to many have left the game due to being ignored and price gouged with excuses of “You have to pay if you wanna play”, it costs money to go fast.” Etc....
It doesn’t cost any more to make a Chrysler head than it does to make a Chevy head. Once the R&D is done, melting the aluminum stock down into a mild and adding the finishing work is all the same but where paying double with idiotic excuses as to why. They speak with forked tongues with brown goo (that normally comes out of your butt) coming out of there mouth like fresh chop meat out of the grinder at a factory. And they just want you to fork over the dough and notice there shinny teeth.
One of the biggest shakes is when Chrysler gave work to the cheapest bidder to produce an inferior product well known and seen with the small block W5 head. (And a few other parts from that era)
At a time when they could least afford a manufacturing debacle that just about crushed there sales in the after market HP & race avenues.
If you have a good W5 head (or other era crap casting part), you know you have a good thing that NO one else made. But who wants to gamble on purchasing multiple parts to find a good one? Pay the machining 2,3 or 4 times.
Who the hell would put up with that crap?!?!
And then the big wigs wonder why things are the way they are.
The new MP catalog? LOL
Duane
Well-Known Member
I hear you on that. I had to purchase 2 sets of w2 heads before I got 1 good set due to casting defects. 1 is repaired and possibly usable, the other was junk.
On a W2 head?
W2 ejeekashun. They cost a lot. They'll outflow any other small block head. They'll make a small block haul butt.
Duane
Well-Known Member
Yes on a w2 810 casting. 1 was a casting defect. I got e refund for that one. The other opened up after porting.
Core shift.
Been there, spent that, glad it’s gone....just like many others. I like the “it’s easy” comment .
Seeing the pict of that W2 port I’d guess to say there’s a bit left on the table. They’ll make a fun build, but it’s going to cost ya!
Me. I want the cheapest bullshitter pushrod money can buy. If stock ones will work, that's what I want. I'd much rather see a bent pushrod than a bent valve, hole in a piston or worse. I want a quality pushrod mind you, but nothing large by huge or hardened or moly or some kinda superman pushrod. To me, the pushrod should be the weak link. They are cheap to replace.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
They are essentially useless trying to compare two heads of different architecture.
Give me a break. You've done enough flow testing to know EXACTLY what I'm saying.
My dad told me years ago dyno #'s and flow #'s are settled at the track.
600 hp on a dyno is usually 500 at the track. lol flow #'s can go either way, make power or lose power where you need it.
But flow numbers tell you a story. When the head backs up it’s telling you it needs something. Same with airspeeds.
Interesting...
Would you want the strongest pushrod in the world if you miss a shift? I sure wouldn't.
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