Weird ignition predictament

[Expire]

After lubing up and helping the engine spin freely I was going to run it for a compression test.

The car in question is a 1974 Gold Duster /6 225 - autotragic

First problem: The duralast battery that came with it is completely dead

So I ended up using a crappy autocraft battery that was in my E28, I figured it would be a little low power but it should work to crank it, right?

So with the Autocraft battery on, I found turning the key would both, turn the dash lights on, headlights, etc, and even have the "buckle your seatbelt" buzzer thing going. I was pretty ecstatic with this. So I decided to try and crank the engine, when cranking it made a slight click (key turning over in the ignition?) then nothing. It didn't sputter or anything, just the click. Soon after I discovered that the Hazard button located below the wheel got very hot, very quickly. Assuming it was due to trying to crank over, I repeated the steps to the same result.

Some quick fixes I tried:
- Charge the battery
- Smack the starter with a wrench a little bit (used to work in the BMW)'
- Cleaning off battery nodes and cables

I also noticed I had some unplugged harneses in the enginebay, after following them and plugging them into what seemed logical, based on prong style / proximity, I actually stopped the dash and buzzer from working until I re-unplugged them?

None of which seemed to solve it. Since the hazard switch got hot, it leads me to believe that there may be a short? This user seems to have a similar problem as well, but his is a little different as his knowingly ran.

What would be my next steps, pull the old wiring and rewiring? Does anyone know of an online resource with a correct wiring diagram for this car? www.mymopar.com doesn't seem to have the Duster, but they have a valiant, would that be similarly wired?

Thanks for all the help everyone!
Best,
Ty


EDIT: Possibly unrelated, but spinning the fan blade CW while pulling up on the belt that connects the crank pulley + alternator generators a sort of whine sound. It sounds like resistance which leads me to believe it sounds like an alternator charging. (If that makes any sense.)

 

[67Dart273]

If I EVER catch you or anyone else "checking a battery" with a wrench I'm going to kick your ***, and I'm 67 years old. That is the most excellent way I know to blow up a battery and get a face full of acid

You sure the battery is not reversed? You sure it is not reversed CHARGED?

CLEAN the battery terminals. Don't just look at them Get a terminal cleaner and CLEAN them

I have NO explanation for why the hazard switch would be hot.

"Unplugged harness." I would troubleshoot with everything hooked up "as normal" unless you need to unplug one, specifically to make a check.

You can do the following to protect against shorts while troubleshooting:

Get / rig your self a large wattage lamp. This can be an old stop / tail lamp, and or a headlamp.

With a stop tail, "rig" the two socket wires together, so you are using both filaments. Wire the socket in series with battery ground. This means that a dead short in the system will do nothing except light up the lamp

Go around make sure everything is off. Check dome (don't forget light switch, "twist to the right") trunk / hood/ glove box / map light "if equipped."

Light should NOT light.

Temporarily remove your "heavy" light and replace with your "regular" 12V test lamp. Still should not light

If either does, start by pulling fuses, try wiggling the hazard switch. Figure out what circuit the trouble is in by means of removing fuses.

Post back any change, any findings

===================================

You MAY be having troubles with the seat belt interlock. Look under the hood for a horn relay size box with a push button. There are two 'yellowish' wires. Permanently connect those two wires, which break the starter relay signal wire

Here

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=14304

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showpost.php?p=1130649&postcount=18

 

[furyus2]

Also, do not put your hands anywhere near the fan or belts while trying to crank the engine. If it starts to spin, you can kiss your fingers goodbye.

 

[Phreakish]

A voltmeter on the battery while you crank might answer whether the battery is up to snuff to turn the motor over.
If the voltage drops to 10.5v or less when you try to crank it, then the battery isn't able to deliver the amps needed to turn the motor. Resting voltage is useless, and if you think a battery is good if it shows 12v at rest, you need to simply find a mechanic.

Good connections between the battery and starter are 110% necessary, as 67Dart273 pointed out.

Anything other than checking voltage or using a test lamp is a shot in the dark. Don't guess at what the problem might be or you're liable to spend money you didn't need to, or make problems worse by ignoring the underlying issue.

 

[67Dart273]

So far as diagrams / shop manuals, the newest shop manual online "free" is "MyMopar" and there is some wiring differences between 73 / 74.

The wiring diagrams for the A bodies are the same between Valiant / Dart /Duster / Demon etc except for stuff like the Rallye dash cluster

The diagrams there at MyMopare in the A / B two diagram format are somewhat handy and sometimes easier to follow, but they often leave out options or connectors.

Because you have a 74, and because there are no shop manuals online, I'd advise searching online and buying either an old paper, a reprint, or an "on CD"

I do have a 74 paper copy and could post sections of the wiring here. The later wiring diagrams are in some ways a PITA, which is where the MyMopar A/ B diagrams come in handy.

 

[slantsixdan]

The car in question is a 1974 Gold Duster /6 225 - autotragic

Being a '74, it was built with the seatbelt/starter interlock system. Although that system's Federal mandate was repealed in '75, yours may still be intact enough to prevent you starting the car. Bypass info is here.

the Hazard button located below the wheel got very hot, very quickly. Assuming it was due to trying to crank over

No, it was not due to your starting attempts. It is due to a short circuit. Find and fix it before trying again, or you'll have an electrical fire that'll make the needed repairs bigger and more expensive.

Pushing the fan down while trying to crank

This makes no sense and is a great way to get very injured.

I also noticed I had some unplugged harneses in the enginebay, after following them and plugging them into what seemed logical, based on prong style / proximity, I actually stopped the dash and buzzer from working until I re-unplugged them?

Your car has wiring issues. You'll need to find and fix them.

www.mymopar.com doesn't seem to have the Duster, but they have a valiant, would that be similarly wired?

Identically wired; the Duster was just a fastback-body Valiant.

spinning the fan blade CW while pulling up on the belt that connects the crank pulley + alternator generators a sort of whine sound. It sounds like resistance which leads me to believe it sounds like an alternator charging. (If that makes any sense.)

I'm afraid it doesn't...

 

[Expire]

Also, do not put your hands anywhere near the fan or belts while trying to crank the engine. If it starts to spin, you can kiss your fingers goodbye.

Yeah, wasn't thinking that one through at the time. Luckily, nothing.

If I EVER catch you or anyone else "checking a battery" with a wrench I'm going to kick your ***, and I'm 67 years old. That is the most excellent way I know to blow up a battery and get a face full of acid

When did I say I checked my battery with a wrench? I checked it with a multimeter and cleaned the terminals.

Being a '74, it was built with the seatbelt/starter interlock system. Although that system's Federal mandate was repealed in '75, yours may still be intact enough to prevent you starting the car. Bypass info is here.

So if it is the interlock system will it not crank or turn at all, same symptom as if you had a dead battery? Just turn the key and nothing happens?

 

[RedFish]

The mental pictures I get from reading here scare me more than the average haunted house. 'tis the season I suppose. I've witnessed 2 battery explosions. Both left permanent scars. The neighbor directly across the street fed 65% of fingers on left hand to a V belt.
Hazard switch on column heating up is not normal. Fault may very well be in that switch. Hazard, turn, and brake lamps are all wired through that switch assembly.
A single connector ( 1 of 2 ) under the column will disconnect it. Ignition switch is wired through separate/other connector so it would still work.

 

[Expire]

The mental pictures I get from reading here scare me more than the average haunted house. 'tis the season I suppose. I've witnessed 2 battery explosions. Both left permanent scars. The neighbor directly across the street fed 65% of fingers on left hand to a V belt.
Hazard switch on column heating up is not normal. Fault may very well be in that switch. Hazard, turn, and brake lamps are all wired through that switch assembly.
A single connector ( 1 of 2 ) under the column will disconnect it. Ignition switch is wired through separate/other connector so it would still work.

I'm here to tell ghost stories of not thinking at the time.

I'll have to check that warning switches wires next time I'm home.

 

[slantsixdan]

So if it is the interlock system will it not crank or turn at all, same symptom as if you had a dead battery? Just turn the key and nothing happens?

That is correct. The interlock system prevents the starter operating.

 

[nm9stheham]

If you have the interlock system, it normally had a bypass switch out in the engine compartment. It is about 2" wide and maybe 3/4" thick and has a rebutton about 1/2" long stick out of it. You could push this button and get the get to start.

Do a search in this forum for 'seatbelt interlock'.

As said, run down the hazard heating before anything else. And disconnect the battery from the car each time you walk away, just on the odd chance that it might short further and go up by itself.

 

[Expire]

If you have the interlock system, it normally had a bypass switch out in the engine compartment. It is about 2" wide and maybe 3/4" thick and has a rebutton about 1/2" long stick out of it. You could push this button and get the get to start.

Do a search in this forum for 'seatbelt interlock'.

As said, run down the hazard heating before anything else. And disconnect the battery from the car each time you walk away, just on the odd chance that it might short further and go up by itself.

I may have seen it, but my engine compartment is very rusty, so I may have not recognized what it exactly was.

 

[67Dart273]

I may have seen it, but my engine compartment is very rusty, so I may have not recognized what it exactly was.

See the links, bottom of post 2

 

[Expire]

BUMP:

Here's an update!

So I got home on Friday and first thing I tried was to as you all said, buckle the seat belt and crank. Which brings the question, is the loud buzzer when you put the key in, due to

A: Door being open?
B: Seatbelt not being clicked?
C: Both?

Because after buckling it did not stop buzzing. Just curious on this one. Anyways, I buckled the belt but the car still doesn't crank so I believe it is due to the ignition, or a bad wire.

I know it's not the starter because I was able to jump the relay and it fires up, but since the car didn't have a gas line feeding gas (just poured some in the carb) it couldn't stay running.

So the car definitely runs, isn't locked up, or too rusted to spin, which is good. Next steps, rewiring? Or could their be a part that may just need replaced? The starter does not click, or crank with belt buckled, door closed, and key crank. But will start and jump to life when jumped from the relays by the battery tray.

 

[Bad Sport]

First thing I would do is get that interlock system bypassed.

 

[Expire]

First thing I would do is get that interlock system bypassed.

All of the wires are rotted, I just ordered a book on the '74 Duster so I plan on buying a spool of 9guage and redoing all the wires. That's when that will happen. Does it sound like some ignition wire is bad, based on the issue that is persisting?

 

[nm9stheham]

The seatbelt interlock open prevents the starter from engaging, so that is likely the issue, since you could bypass the start relay. It interrupts the power feed from the key to the starter relay.

The other possible issue is that there is a neutral start switch in an auto trans, or a clutch pedal switch for a manual trans. If these circuits are not closing right, then then car won't start. Make sure you have an auto trans in park, or the clutch pedal pushed to the floor if you have a manual trans, when you try to crank the car.

Do you have a voltmeter? We can't do much about this without you runnign some checks for us.

 

[Expire]

The seatbelt interlock open prevents the starter from engaging, so that is likely the issue, since you could bypass the start relay. It interrupts the power feed from the key to the starter relay.

The other possible issue is that there is a neutral start switch in an auto trans, or a clutch pedal switch for a manual trans. If these circuits are not closing right, then then car won't start. Make sure you have an auto trans in park, or the clutch pedal pushed to the floor if you have a manual trans, when you try to crank the car.

Do you have a voltmeter? We can't do much about this without you runnign some checks for us.

Understandable. I had the belt buckled so i don't think it's interlock.

I do but I will have to wait til I go back friday to check it. The A/T was in fact in park.

 

[nm9stheham]

Understandable. I had the belt buckled so i don't think it's interlock.

I do but I will have to wait til I go back friday to check it. The A/T was in fact in park.

Neither circumstance that you mention means that there are not any problems in the interlock or neutral start switch circuits. You only know that you did the right things, no more. You have to ASSUME that one of these is the problem area, or even both. They are the prime suspects with your symptoms.

Get a cheap voltmeter or we will have issues providing help. With the wiring system condition, it is 99.99% certain you will need one.

 

[Bad Sport]

First thing I would do is get that interlock system bypassed.

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