What the hell is going on with shops?

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one of my pet peeves with professional shop rates is they charge you by what the book says it will take. Seems those times are what it would take an amateur to do the job not a professional. They brag about knowing what they are doing and then charge $150/hr or more for the book time when it often is 2 to 3 times as long as what it really takes a professional to do the job. So in reality they are not charging $150/hr (or worse) but more like $300-$450/hr. I say pick a rate that pays your bills and makes you money and then just get the dang job done. If that's $450/hr and full retail price on parts and $100 to diagnose then fine. We'll just call you the auto DOCTOR from now on, but stop peeing in my face and telling me it's raining.
 
Those books are usually right on the time, they take into account the issues with removing something that sometimes, SOMETIMES just doesn't happen.

I do many diffs of all sizes and makes, the book sometimes says should be 4 hrs, and sometimes i can get it done just under, and sometimes there are many issues, rotors seized to hubs, hubs, bolts....
Would you like a call from the shop that gave you a price of 350 labor to call and say we had these problems and the time went to ___ and now the labor is 950 ?

It's amazing that you made the doctor reference though, you probably have no problem paying your doctor his $100 or more for 8 minutes, remove the waiting room time and your doctor is a thief.
My doctor is never examining me longer than a few minutes and he gets something like $20 a minute.
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Either way that trans job isn't dropping the oil and pan and removing a solenoid it is more involved as will be learned. whether or not it's 1100, not sure, but they may have been replacing the wiring also as that is part of issues attached to these jobs the non pro deems simple
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People forget the cost of running a business. I give someone a price of $300 to detail their car and they look at me like I have 6 heads. 8 hours of work, 1 mill. dollars of Insurance, Rent, lights, heat, phone and internet, marketing, shop supplies all need to be paid before I split profits with my partner. Out of that $300 Im lucky to take home $75. If I had employees I would be in the red.
 
Shop rate manuals are based on warranty times plus 30 percent.
So what ever the factory wanted to pay dealer mechanics to repair.(In most case the factory screwed us)
These times are based on a fully equipped shop including lift,air tools,and all the dealers specialty tools.These times are also based on a qualified professional completing the task.
An amateur can not beat these times especially with hand tools.A lot of professionals can not either that why it is a guide...it ain't no bible.
Like Supershafts said we eat a lot of time when we run into problems to keep the bid right and customer happy...it just goes with the territory...win some, lose some...
 
Just looked at the transmission book and it said with a 5.7 in a 2005 dodge 1500 it has a 545rfe which is a solenoid block and that is not a $110.00 dollar part,i think it is closer to $400.00.
If the shop is going to warranty the repair i would assume they will be replacing the solenoid block and the worn tcc valve in the pump along with the torque converter.
The labor,parts and fluid sounds close to $1100.00 to me.
 
I also love the argument about paying for all the cost of doing business stuff. What gets me there is that is all charged to the customer and then written off come tax time. Since I as the customer was the one paying for that stuff as pointed out above, shouldn't I get the tax writeoff? I don't know what the book says overall, just from the few things I have ever brought in or had done under warranty. The hours listed were always silly high for somebody actively engaged in the job with all the proper tools. I'd love to hear some specific times of what the book says for common things people here have done themselves so we could judge for ourselves your argument you get screwed with those times.
I do complain about the doctor rates as well. Last time in I timed the actual doctor time and then compared to the billed rates and shamed them on social media. Lots of people responded with "why do you care you have good insurance?" Exactly one reason our healthcare is getting so expensive. That, over use, and lawyers.
 
Many new car dealerships repair shops are starving to death. I have a retired co-worker fireman that has worked as a Ford tech for over 30 years. When we were firefighters he worked his days off, now that we are retired he works for Jarrett Ford in Plant city full time. I work at a shop that has 2 other techs. We stay covered up with work on 2003-2010 6.0 and 6.4 Ford diesels. When I ask my buddy if they are busy at the dealership? He tells me the shop is down to 4 techs including him! Why? We just took in a 2005 6.0 F-250 that another local Ford dealership quoted $8800.00 for a turbo and 8 injectors and a EGR cooler. When we finished the job for the customer we instaled 2 injectors and a EGR delete kit and cost the customer 1200.00! You can argue overhead, scanners,licences,taxes,blah,blah ,blah all you want and try and justify these insane dealership prices all you want. While we stayed coveredup in work. And yes we are licenced, insured,cerfied repair shop. Excuse me while I go outside and start pulling the cabs on a 08 6.4 with blown head gaskets and a 09 6.4 with a blown motor. We will be making money while you defend your high prices. Got a problem with your Ford diesel? Contact me. There Rant is over.
 
I also love the argument about paying for all the cost of doing business stuff. What gets me there is that is all charged to the customer and then written off come tax time. Since I as the customer was the one paying for that stuff as pointed out above, shouldn't I get the tax writeoff? I don't know what the book says overall, just from the few things I have ever brought in or had done under warranty. The hours listed were always silly high for somebody actively engaged in the job with all the proper tools. I'd love to hear some specific times of what the book says for common things people here have done themselves so we could judge for ourselves your argument you get screwed with those times.
I do complain about the doctor rates as well. Last time in I timed the actual doctor time and then compared to the billed rates and shamed them on social media. Lots of people responded with "why do you care you have good insurance?" Exactly one reason our healthcare is getting so expensive. That, over use, and lawyers.


What... write offs.... you can't write off everything, what do you think i got back this year ?

So many people have their hand in business owners pockets it isn't even funny, the fed, the state, local, town, witholding tax, bs licenses and bs permits... Where is my salary for collecting sales tax ?? wtf the govt wants sales tax and i want $20 an hour for doing there job, or they can stand there and collect there tax from you when you walk out..
If i really added all the costs in, prices would change drastically.... DRASTICALLY... My prices on many MANY things would be much much higher...
For example, taxes went up, gas went up since 1.80g , electric has gone way up, parts went up, supplies went up, delivery prices went up yet i still charge the same prices for many common alterations on shafts and t-cases and diffs for the past 10 years or actually longer on many many things, my diff builds and rebuilds are the same labor for the last 10 years or more...
Oil went up, grease went up, parts went up, the cost of living has went up BIG TIME!! property tax went up, rent went up and then the govt comes up with new bs and new requirements all unknown by you, the consumer, but EVERY consumer thinks business owners are all rich...

My equipment costs huge money, i have 2 machines just those 2 all by themselves total more than $150,000..... have you any idea what it takes to make that money back ? and thats just 2 machines, lathes, bridgeports, welders, tooling, hand tools, electric tools... all costs, when i have a new employee wrecking $90 a piece bits on a job that costs $75 and they wreck 6 of them, would you want the phone call that your car is now $525 ? Somehow i don't think you want the call when tooling breaks adding to what it cost to repair your parts or vehicle...

OR you buy a new car and the manufacture changes the design just to be assholes, like say you have a vibe in your shaft and now that shaft needs new fixtures to mimic the car, you want to pay the $75 or the $950 for the 2 fixtures ? that there is no guarantee will be used 15 more times to compensate the cost before it becomes a tool making money...
I have fixtures that cost $1300 each and have been used 4 times in 7 years, they are a huge loss that i never get back, and you can only claim losses so many times.

write offs, please write offs are based on percentages of taxes, not overall cost, and then lets remember the insurance to cover the nearly 2 million dollars of equipment every month, and the ins for the jerk off that might want to sue, the ins for the truck to deliver and p/u just to make the customer happy, that they think is must for them, it's a courtesy that isn't figured into ANY job, so now we have another burden ins, driver, truck cost, maintenance, oil, gas
Yeah write offs are so awesome, they don't cover the amount of gas used for the shop truck in 2 weeks...

There is so much the consumer has no idea about, they think it's just get this and that and make money...

.
 
We just took in a 2005 6.0 F-250 that another local Ford dealership quoted $8800.00 for a turbo and 8 injectors and a EGR cooler. When we finished the job for the customer we instaled 2 injectors and a EGR delete kit and cost the customer 1200.00!


How can you compare those 2 jobs ?
1 has a turbo, 8 inj, egr cooler which is more than a egr delete and 2 inj..

I don't see how you can compare when the same wasn't performed.
 
one of my pet peeves with professional shop rates is they charge you by what the book says it will take. Seems those times are what it would take an amateur to do the job not a professional. They brag about knowing what they are doing and then charge $150/hr or more for the book time when it often is 2 to 3 times as long as what it really takes a professional to do the job. So in reality they are not charging $150/hr (or worse) but more like $300-$450/hr. I say pick a rate that pays your bills and makes you money and then just get the dang job done. If that's $450/hr and full retail price on parts and $100 to diagnose then fine. We'll just call you the auto DOCTOR from now on, but stop peeing in my face and telling me it's raining.
Boy are you clueles!!
 
I don't believe the crap about "this is what it costs to run a shop" when it comes to installing a $100 part. Parts and labor used to be fairly close to equal. But I also dont think gas is worth $4 plus a gallon and a new truck $70,000 +. Maybe I'm wrong but isn't everything overpriced today? Especially when they "claim" to be technicians.

Yep. But fortunately, people are paid too much too.

Inflation is a thing. Yes, things cost more than they did in the past.
 
What... write offs.... you can't write off everything, what do you think i got back this year ?

So many people have their hand in business owners pockets it isn't even funny, the fed, the state, local, town, witholding tax, bs licenses and bs permits... Where is my salary for collecting sales tax ?? wtf the govt wants sales tax and i want $20 an hour for doing there job, or they can stand there and collect there tax from you when you walk out..
If i really added all the costs in, prices would change drastically.... DRASTICALLY... My prices on many MANY things would be much much higher...
For example, taxes went up, gas went up since 1.80g , electric has gone way up, parts went up, supplies went up, delivery prices went up yet i still charge the same prices for many common alterations on shafts and t-cases and diffs for the past 10 years or actually longer on many many things, my diff builds and rebuilds are the same labor for the last 10 years or more...
Oil went up, grease went up, parts went up, the cost of living has went up BIG TIME!! property tax went up, rent went up and then the govt comes up with new bs and new requirements all unknown by you, the consumer, but EVERY consumer thinks business owners are all rich...

My equipment costs huge money, i have 2 machines just those 2 all by themselves total more than $150,000..... have you any idea what it takes to make that money back ? and thats just 2 machines, lathes, bridgeports, welders, tooling, hand tools, electric tools... all costs, when i have a new employee wrecking $90 a piece bits on a job that costs $75 and they wreck 6 of them, would you want the phone call that your car is now $525 ? Somehow i don't think you want the call when tooling breaks adding to what it cost to repair your parts or vehicle...

OR you buy a new car and the manufacture changes the design just to be assholes, like say you have a vibe in your shaft and now that shaft needs new fixtures to mimic the car, you want to pay the $75 or the $950 for the 2 fixtures ? that there is no guarantee will be used 15 more times to compensate the cost before it becomes a tool making money...
I have fixtures that cost $1300 each and have been used 4 times in 7 years, they are a huge loss that i never get back, and you can only claim losses so many times.

write offs, please write offs are based on percentages of taxes, not overall cost, and then lets remember the insurance to cover the nearly 2 million dollars of equipment every month, and the ins for the jerk off that might want to sue, the ins for the truck to deliver and p/u just to make the customer happy, that they think is must for them, it's a courtesy that isn't figured into ANY job, so now we have another burden ins, driver, truck cost, maintenance, oil, gas
Yeah write offs are so awesome, they don't cover the amount of gas used for the shop truck in 2 weeks...

There is so much the consumer has no idea about, they think it's just get this and that and make money...

.

I was really on neither side of this debate. but this posting really made me think about things differently. My good friend opened his own shop 2 years ago now, and I have never really given a lot of these things mentioned a thought.. I never question his prices, and I know he probably loses money on some of the jobs he does for myself and my wife, as well as a few other close friends as we were all part of the 'word of mouth' club to get business his way.. these days his shop is doing well, and he has added an employee to help. After reading this I feel like I should stop by after work and give him some extra money for jobs he has done for me LOL .. but for me this whole debate comes down to this... if i have the skills and know how to fix something, i'll just do it myself.. If not, I have to get someone with those skills to do it.. if I feel im getting raped, I look elsewhere.. but it is what it is.. people talk about doctors making too much.. and even auto shops charging too much.. there are a lot of jobs and payments for such jobs out of whack. I've seen people ***** about paying $1500 for motor work at a shop, (key word is WORK.. and sometimes hard unpleasant work) then spend $400 on tickets to go to a professional football game, where they will blow $40 for parking, $50 or better for beer and food.. $100 for soveniers, all to cheer on a team where the stars make multi millions of dollars a year to PLAY a game...

Yea, I drifted off course a bit there.. sorry lol
 
I also love the argument about paying for all the cost of doing business stuff. What gets me there is that is all charged to the customer and then written off come tax time. Since I as the customer was the one paying for that stuff as pointed out above, shouldn't I get the tax writeoff? I don't know what the book says overall, just from the few things I have ever brought in or had done under warranty. The hours listed were always silly high for somebody actively engaged in the job with all the proper tools. I'd love to hear some specific times of what the book says for common things people here have done themselves so we could judge for ourselves your argument you get screwed with those times.
I do complain about the doctor rates as well. Last time in I timed the actual doctor time and then compared to the billed rates and shamed them on social media. Lots of people responded with "why do you care you have good insurance?" Exactly one reason our healthcare is getting so expensive. That, over use, and lawyers.
Clueless & ignorant!!...
I'd love to know what you do for a living? I bet you think you're under paid too.
Here's a suggestion: Go to trade school, buy all the tools necessary to diagnose & repair your car sucessfully & right THE FIRST TIME, (scanners, full set of hand tools, tire equipment, emissions equipment, digital meters, pressure gauges, precision measuring tools, welding equipment, A/C serviceing equipment, waste oil & anti-freeze storage containers, compressor Air tools, specialty tools needed for specific tasks you may only need 1 time but can't do without to fix the car, additional training to stay on top of an ever changing industry on & on) & THEN FIX YOUR OWN CAR & SEE HOW MUCH A PROFESSIONAL IS WORTH!! Just do it for the vehicles you own. Now multiply that for the hundreds of vehicles out there that we deal with daily. I bet you can't even name all the various systems & subsystems that are in the car you own.
Yes I am a CAR DOCTOR!! And my patients change with every year, make & model! Unlike your health care provider who has 2 models to deal with & they haven't changed since Adam & Eve! Pull your head outta your *** & walk a mile in my shoes!
Tax write off.. Gimme a break! You know just as little about business accounting too.

BTW, I'm not knocking Health care providers, they work hard & have a lot to know & have great resposibility too. I'm just making the point of how much is necessary to know in my field.
 
Charging book time and beating it is the only way a shop or a mechanic can make money. The only expense isn't labor / payroll. In any repair, especially diagnostics there is online resource material, pos system upkeep, tool upgrades, updates, etc ... Where do you think the money comes from for this stuff? For diagnostics alone I have 8 different scanners and really should have several more. They cost between $800 and $4500 each. They require yearly updates that average around $1500 each. All my techs have their own scanners as well. Everything has gotten so proprietary now that 10-15 years ago you could use a Snap On brick and a Mastertech and diagnose 95% of the cars. Now I have Snap On, Genisys, DRB II, Genstar, Mastertech, two different Bosch scanners, and two small Mac scanners. Then Alldata and Mitchell information systems. It costs a fortune. All you people complaining about costs are talking from an uninformed position. If the cost seems too high, get a second opinion. They will all usually be in the same ballpark.
 
NOT in any labor guide does it show fixing broken bolts and studs in your rusty car or truck,or repairing someone idea of the proper "fix".
I think some one should look at the written estimate before driving the bus over repair techs and shop owners.
This is my saying "i didn't buy it and i didn't break it so why are you getting mad at me?"
 
How can you compare those 2 jobs ?
1 has a turbo, 8 inj, egr cooler which is more than a egr delete and 2 inj..

I don't see how you can compare when the same wasn't performed.

NO it was the same truck! This is what the dealer shop told him he needed! What we replaced is what the customer needed. He thought the estimate was to damn high so a 6.0 fFord buddy recomended us. Any yahoo can throw enough parts at a vehicle and will stumble on the fix. A mechanic and good tech will fix,find and replace what is needed. This is why we stay backed up. We have customers that will leave a truck with us for a couple of months. And we incur the same cost of doing business as you do. It's called the "Cost of Doing Business!"
 
Here is a thought...Need a good shop see how much work they got....
All you shop owners like me are booked due to our good reputation....
I adjust my labor rate to my expenses and it has risen 3x in the last four years and I still am booked...
Matter of fact I am at work right now...got love that daylight savings time and Spring time....WOO Hoo.......
 
If I ever have work I don't feel like doing I farm it out to Denny (Den's M30 Auto). It is a little shop, basically big pole barn with a lift, that he runs off the side of a highway with little to no advertising other than a simple sign. He knows me by name and when he F'd something up and said it would be out of his wallet I said no and paid him for his time. That earned his respect and he has mine. That is how it should work. Denny doesn't get rich off me and I pay him for his very valuable time. He does great honest work. These type of shops are hard to find but I think he is very careful on his clients as well.
 
Here is a thought...Need a good shop see how much work they got....
All you shop owners like me are booked due to our good reputation....
I adjust my labor rate to my expenses and it has risen 3x in the last four years and I still am booked...
Matter of fact I am at work right now...got love that daylight savings time and Spring time....WOO Hoo.......

Agree 100%. We stay so booked up there is no light at the end of the tunnel.
And we also stand behind our work In my opinion better than any shop. And when we quote a job,that is the price, barring unknown broken parts, like a cracked head on a head job. As far as broken bolts? We eat the extra cost. We just rebuilt a trans in a Lincoln and broke a exhaust to pipe bolt off in the manifold. We fixed it at no extra cost to the customer. This is part of the reason we stay so busy.I'm not telling anyone how to run their business. Just pointing out how we do it.
 
So if I need work on my Barracuda now I have to pay for all your fancy scanners so you can work on a new Honda? Or the topic of this tread in the first place, you need all those scanners to fix a slave cylinder? I still challenge you to post some book times for common jobs so we can see how clueless I am. It is COMMON in shops for a single tech to write up 16 hours worth of work in the day and then work 9-5. I know the tax write offs don't cover the costs totally but it does cover a portion. Basically all those costs you mention come right off the highest tax bracket you make it to.
Like I said in the beginning, I don't mind paying a fair price for good work. I just want transparency and a little less spin. Like I said I have had a shop do a job, seen the labor time they wrote down, then did the same job myself and beat it with no experience and simple hand tools. Maybe that's not common but as I pointed out then why are there techs out there writing up 16 hours worth of work and working 8 hours? That is rhetorical, I realize why it happens, you explained it, it's how you cover up for the fact you just need to charge $300/hr to keep a profit. I'm fine with that, I say just charge $300/hr and be done with it!
As far as me I deliver mail to at least 1100 houses every day, usually 6 days a week, 45-55 hours/wk on average. I live in a below average for our area $185,000 home with a couple 5-10 year old cars, a 30 year old boat, and a 20 year old truck camper. To get this job I worked 11 years in the navy as a nuclear hydro electric machinery mechanic and chemist 60-80 hours a week and my highest earnings year was $24,000. I too haven't gotten a raise in over 2 years and have to pay more for all that stuff just like you do, at least I voted for the other guy, LOL! I pay entirely too many taxes also as have to deal with more government bureaucracy then you can imagine as well. I'm sure you would think my job easy as well, but everything is until you actually do it!
Good luck, sorry to offend your honest and fair work standards, obviously you are not the problem out there. that said you are the clueless ones if you deny the shams that go on in the auto repair world.
 
My mechanic friend left a large dealership several years ago, and opened his own in his 2 car garage. In the country, with no advertiseing, except word of mouth. Example, he rebuilt my son's transmission in his '99 Dodge truck, for less than half what the dealership, and 2 other shops quoted him. He now has 5 bays, with 3 lifts, plus a 2 bay bike shop, and 5 guys working for him, and a waiting list to get in. And yes he is certified. He told me, he is in this to make a living, just doesn't try to make it off of every job.
 
What... write offs.... you can't write off everything, what do you think i got back this year ?

So many people have their hand in business owners pockets it isn't even funny, the fed, the state, local, town, witholding tax, bs licenses and bs permits... Where is my salary for collecting sales tax ?? wtf the govt wants sales tax and i want $20 an hour for doing there job, or they can stand there and collect there tax from you when you walk out..
If i really added all the costs in, prices would change drastically.... DRASTICALLY... My prices on many MANY things would be much much higher...
For example, taxes went up, gas went up since 1.80g , electric has gone way up, parts went up, supplies went up, delivery prices went up yet i still charge the same prices for many common alterations on shafts and t-cases and diffs for the past 10 years or actually longer on many many things, my diff builds and rebuilds are the same labor for the last 10 years or more...
Oil went up, grease went up, parts went up, the cost of living has went up BIG TIME!! property tax went up, rent went up and then the govt comes up with new bs and new requirements all unknown by you, the consumer, but EVERY consumer thinks business owners are all rich...

My equipment costs huge money, i have 2 machines just those 2 all by themselves total more than $150,000..... have you any idea what it takes to make that money back ? and thats just 2 machines, lathes, bridgeports, welders, tooling, hand tools, electric tools... all costs, when i have a new employee wrecking $90 a piece bits on a job that costs $75 and they wreck 6 of them, would you want the phone call that your car is now $525 ? Somehow i don't think you want the call when tooling breaks adding to what it cost to repair your parts or vehicle...

OR you buy a new car and the manufacture changes the design just to be assholes, like say you have a vibe in your shaft and now that shaft needs new fixtures to mimic the car, you want to pay the $75 or the $950 for the 2 fixtures ? that there is no guarantee will be used 15 more times to compensate the cost before it becomes a tool making money...
I have fixtures that cost $1300 each and have been used 4 times in 7 years, they are a huge loss that i never get back, and you can only claim losses so many times.

write offs, please write offs are based on percentages of taxes, not overall cost, and then lets remember the insurance to cover the nearly 2 million dollars of equipment every month, and the ins for the jerk off that might want to sue, the ins for the truck to deliver and p/u just to make the customer happy, that they think is must for them, it's a courtesy that isn't figured into ANY job, so now we have another burden ins, driver, truck cost, maintenance, oil, gas
Yeah write offs are so awesome, they don't cover the amount of gas used for the shop truck in 2 weeks...

There is so much the consumer has no idea about, they think it's just get this and that and make money...

.
I don't have to say anymore than this gentleman said, he covered it all.:D:prayer:
 
Clueless & ignorant!!...
I'd love to know what you do for a living? I bet you think you're under paid too.
Here's a suggestion: Go to trade school, buy all the tools necessary to diagnose & repair your car sucessfully & right THE FIRST TIME, (scanners, full set of hand tools, tire equipment, emissions equipment, digital meters, pressure gauges, precision measuring tools, welding equipment, A/C serviceing equipment, waste oil & anti-freeze storage containers, compressor Air tools, specialty tools needed for specific tasks you may only need 1 time but can't do without to fix the car, additional training to stay on top of an ever changing industry on & on) & THEN FIX YOUR OWN CAR & SEE HOW MUCH A PROFESSIONAL IS WORTH!! Just do it for the vehicles you own. Now multiply that for the hundreds of vehicles out there that we deal with daily. I bet you can't even name all the various systems & subsystems that are in the car you own.
Yes I am a CAR DOCTOR!! And my patients change with every year, make & model! Unlike your health care provider who has 2 models to deal with & they haven't changed since Adam & Eve! Pull your head outta your *** & walk a mile in my shoes!
Tax write off.. Gimme a break! You know just as little about business accounting too.

BTW, I'm not knocking Health care providers, they work hard & have a lot to know & have great resposibility too. I'm just making the point of how much is necessary to know in my field.
Lonewolf, been reading these posts, and most have never ran a buisiness and have no clue what it takes. Not to get off topic, but look at our current govt. administration and our country, again they have no clue. I used to hear it all the time from customer's, look at all the money your making. The majority have no clue what it takes just to keep the doors open day to day. As I said in an earlier post a week ago, I closed up and never looked back. I enjoyed my work, but got tired of the constant drone of customer's looking to get something for next to nothing or free.
 
Lonewolf, been reading these posts, and most have never ran a buisiness and have no clue what it takes. Not to get off topic, but look at our current govt. administration and our country, again they have no clue. I used to hear it all the time from customer's, look at all the money your making. The majority have no clue what it takes just to keep the doors open day to day. As I said in an earlier post a week ago, I closed up and never looked back. I enjoyed my work, but got tired of the constant drone of customer's looking to get something for next to nothing or free.
I hear ya brother!
 
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