What's broke?

[canyncarvr]

Looking for best guesses on new breakage.

It's a transmission issue. It might be clutch related, but kind'a doubt it.

Engine running, trans in neutral, clutch pedal pushed, things are quiet. Let the pedal out, and I can hear and feel (in the shifter) a gravelly racket. Not quite rocks in a blender, but there is certainly something crunchy going on in the milkshake. Not a 'thin' noise, but grumbly.

Trans shifts fine, motates fine. Nothing of particular note took place immediately prior to this. No whams, bams or anything unusual. The noise/vibration wasn't there one minute (parked in the garage), five minutes later it was (after a short run down the street to mix-up new gear lube in the diff).

I did have the impression there was a slight overall vibe when driving last time out that I was unsure was real or I was making it up. This engine has always been as smooth as glass, but the last time I took it for a spin, something didn't feel quite right. ...just a slight overall tremor that I maybe felt in the car. I don't know it to be related, or even pertinent, OR even a 'thing'.

I've always considered 833's to be unbreakable...behind a small block anyway. Only problem I ever had with one is a 2nd gear synchro failure when I was racing on a regular basis. This is NOT that tranny.

Any opines would be appreciated. Anyone with a known good 855 looking for a new home...I could find a nice spot for it.

Thanks!

 

[pauly]

Throw out bearing maybe?

 

[teringer]

Could be the input shaft bearings or you broke a spring on the clutch disc and its fallen into the clutch plate Now what trans fluid are you using and what type of clutch assemble

 

[Righty Tighty]

I have the same issue with my 903. I posted here and it was agreed upon that it was the front bearing and not the throwout bearing, since the noise happens when I release the clutch pedal.

If it was the throwout bearing, supposedly it would be making the noise with the clutch pedal depressed, and not released. At least that’s what I was told.

 

[HemiSSDart]

Throwout bearing, front bearing, broken input shaft retainer. No matter what it is the trans needs to come out, it will be readily apparent when that happens...

 

[Murray]

Front bearing.

 

[canyncarvr]

Could be the input shaft bearings or you broke a spring on the clutch disc and its fallen into the clutch plate Now what trans fluid are you using and what type of clutch assemble

Clutch is a McLeod B&B/Long combo, an 11"/10.5" plate/disc combo. Call it a 10.95" plate if that suits.

Fluid is Dexron. Before you guffaw, hoot, and deride, keep in mind that Ma Mopar says Dexron is fine for cold weather use. I wouldn't race with it, but that's not how I use the car these days. I would prefer better shifting over extreme use protection. There is no 'extreme use' for the car. Saying it's driven 50 miles a month is a 'pert damn near a huge exaggeration. When it is driven it is usually less than ten miles...occasionally 25-30...and only twice in decades of time have I driven it 100 miles in a day.


Browsed around it some today. Everything clutch-wise looks fine. No loose/bent/broken/oddly spaced fingers. Can't see all of the disc springs, but nothing looks out of place. Disc facing and spacer are fine...no missing pieces. Disc moves as expected when free...smooth, no up/down movement that might indicate a hub fracture/damage or pilot bushing problem.

Hear no noise when turning the trans with the starter (remote button...me under the car). Wouldn't expect to...the starter isn't exactly stealthy-quiet. Feel nothing rotating the trans from the prop shaft...but that has nothing to do with the input bearing.

Drained some fluid out. Saw a few (couple/several) gold-colored bits...but nothing shiny. Fluid level is full.

Throwout bearing, front bearing, broken input shaft retainer. No matter what it is the trans needs to come out, it will be readily apparent when that happens...

I would think 'readily apparent' would apply...but I'm not at all confident of that.

A BTW...but Passon's 833 book says the cluster shaft comes out before the input shaft. Is that correct? Why can't the cluster stay in place? The bearing won't clear the cluster? All the numbers say this is a 307 bearing transmission.

I sure don't want to fuss with the cluster. Arbor? Spacer? Got nunna that toolage. 76-bazillion rollers? Please...no!

 

[Murray]

I would only use oils made for stick shift trans. Oils have changed a lot in the last few years. The improper oils may actually attack the brass synchro's and degrade them.

 

[canyncarvr]

Dexron isn't 'made for' stick transmissions. The folks selling the New Process gearboxes in their cars (Mopar) say it is suitable for use in those gearboxes. No argument is being made that Dexron is The Best oil for the job, but it cannot be argued that it is NOT suitable for use.

Ha...well, of course it can, but it is neither a useful nor correct argument.

 

[66fs]

You must drop the cluster gear, the bearing will not clear the teeth. The arbor tool is cheap. If you have one, it will keep everything in the cluster gear in position while you drop it down and bring it back up. Use a new cluster shaft and key. If your reverse arm is leaking fluid, now is the time to clean up the bore and install a new O-Ring. Same for the side cover arms. It is better to inspect and clean everything and know you are good. Use GL4 lube. I can always tell when a trans was run with ATF just by looking at the worn parts. The cluster gear rollers and thrust bearings stay put with ordinary grease, no big deal.

 

[canyncarvr]

You must drop the cluster gear, the bearing will not clear the teeth.

Thanks! It's been awhile since I looked inside. I remembered (which I do poorly) that there was room to leave the cluster in.

That makes it all the more complicated: Both the front bearing replacement, AND the remembery.

Having never taken an 833 completely apart (I replaced a broken 2nd gear stop ring once..that's it), I envision tons of trouble. Bits like, what happens when the key in the cluster shaft does not 'quite' line up with the recess in the case? HOW does one rotate that shaft at that point?

I'm not asking that question to start a different conversation...just sayin' I fuss over such stuff.

I can always tell when a trans was run with ATF just by looking at the worn parts.

Thanks for that. Don't get me wrong...I do NOT think Dexron is perfectly good, but it can do the job, particularly with the way the car is driven.

I would no sooner race with Dexron in the 833 than I'd race with stock axles. Yeah...that didn't work! ;)

I would no sooner race with Dexron in than I'd race with a 7260 driveline. Yeah, THAT didn't work either.

I also never considered 'speed shifting' my 833's gear teeth.

 

[Inertia]

Generally a broom handle cut to the right length makes a perfect "arbor" .
The cluster , - brgs and all fall to the bottom.
Inspecting the shaft will indicate further inspection, but recommended to inspect cluster gear bearing surfaces while apart .
Good luck .

 

[66fs]

Since you don't really have to remove the cluster gear, the arbor tool will keep everything together. The tabs in the thrust bushings pretty much stay aligned if you just drop the cluster straight down, maybe use a couple alignment punches, you don't have to drop the cluster gear far, just enough to get the input shaft out and back in. As for the key, get it as close as you can, there is plenty of leeway, then tap the countershaft just under flush. Again, grease will keep the key in position untill it is in the pocket.

 

[teringer]

I use 40wt non det. Motor oil that's what the heavy duty trucks used the last 40 years and there is a mopar bulletin that tells you to choose a heavy oil if you hear bearing noise like mine did ,do not go over 50wt.

 

[canyncarvr]

Fs for the key, get it as close as you can, there is plenty of leeway,

That's good to know. Thanks.

 

[canyncarvr]

It does occur to me that I'm worried about no big deal. Is it noisy? Certainly. Is it a problem? Maybe not?

I don't generally sit IN the car with it idling. That I think it's a brand new noise could be incorrect on my part. Sounds like trouble to me. Reading about noises the 833 makes with a Dexron fill...maybe it's normal.

It's worth the $50 it will cost to replace the Dexron with a qualified gear oil. I ordered a gallon of GL4 today.

Fun with words: Every bottle on the NAPA store shelf (except Royal Purple...which expressly said it was safe for yellow metal) said it was good for 'non-synchronized' manual transmissions. How many of those are in play? One brand (GL5) said it was good for transmissions, but did NOT specifically say it was OK for yellow metal. That brand did not have the 'non-synchronized' verbiage.

I realize gear oil composition has changed over time. I do not understand the 'dancing with words' garbage on the labels. Yes, I should be familiar with JASO this and API that...but I am not. I simply want to buy the right stuff.

Reading the labels with comprehension...that is an impossible task.

I settled for a jug of Sta-Lube GL4. Label says it's good for manual transmissions, does not specify yellow metal exceptions or acceptions.

Maybe the noise will go away.

Maybe I'll put my name on Brewer's nine month wait list for another trans.

I might order a repair kit and 'test drive' its install on another 833 I have with other problems (main shaft wobble). If that works, I'll have a spare when mine actually grenades....from noise/damage I didn't hear before it blew up 'cuz it's got thick goo in it for lube.

 

[Ironracer]

Dexron isn't 'made for' stick transmissions. The folks selling the New Process gearboxes in their cars (Mopar) say it is suitable for use in those gearboxes. No argument is being made that Dexron is The Best oil for the job, but it cannot be argued that it is NOT suitable for use.

Ha...well, of course it can, but it is neither a useful nor correct argument.

I'll be Honest, the NP 3500, bowtie used it also, I had a Dakota that was pretty quick, a 5 speed 3:92 rear end, with that transmission they are almost unservicable pieces of garbage... please don't take this as an attack on you, or your knowledge, or anything like that. Just me and that particular transmission are not friends,, and never will be again, hopefully they are using something better, it was an 01, with single cab, short bed.

 

[Ironracer]

It does occur to me that I'm worried about no big deal. Is it noisy? Certainly. Is it a problem? Maybe not?

I don't generally sit IN the car with it idling. That I think it's a brand new noise could be incorrect on my part. Sounds like trouble to me. Reading about noises the 833 makes with a Dexron fill...maybe it's normal.

It's worth the $50 it will cost to replace the Dexron with a qualified gear oil. I ordered a gallon of GL4 today.

Fun with words: Every bottle on the NAPA store shelf (except Royal Purple...which expressly said it was safe for yellow metal) said it was good for 'non-synchronized' manual transmissions. How many of those are in play? One brand (GL5) said it was good for transmissions, but did NOT specifically say it was OK for yellow metal. That brand did not have the 'non-synchronized' verbiage.

I realize gear oil composition has changed over time. I do not understand the 'dancing with words' garbage on the labels. Yes, I should be familiar with JASO this and API that...but I am not. I simply want to buy the right stuff.

Reading the labels with comprehension...that is an impossible task.

I settled for a jug of Sta-Lube GL4. Label says it's good for manual transmissions, does not specify yellow metal exceptions or acceptions.

Maybe the noise will go away.

Maybe I'll put my name on Brewer's nine month wait list for another trans.

I might order a repair kit and 'test drive' its install on another 833 I have with other problems (main shaft wobble). If that works, I'll have a spare when mine actually grenades....from noise/damage I didn't hear before it blew up 'cuz it's got thick goo in it for lube.

I've always ran regular old gear lube down here, the thick stuff, but R&B in temperature so already in the mid-90s this week so picture August and stuff like that..... I've only broke one A833, and that's because the input shaft bearing was loose before I got it I imagine and after that I replaced it with one it never gave me any grief now I did lunch up a few 8 3/4s here and there. .. on your issues with interpretating the BS they put on these bottles it takes a pair of eyeglasses sometimes a flashlight depending on the lighting on the store and definitely some internet research unless you're in that trade for a living because it can be very difficult I have issues with it at some points, just because I want to use the right stuff for the right application, is that too much for us gear heads to ask? But yes sir if something's going to eat (lunch up or eat) our brass.... wtf they selling it for? Sorry, Rant over

 

[72dustervs]

Most likely the throw out bearing as clutch fork movement causes noise when releasing clutch pedal , maybe front bearing but I really don't think so,, unbolt and pull tranny back and and look , doesn't need to be completely removed to find and replace , I would thou replace clutch pressure plate an throw out bearing if when you check and find it to be throw out bearing ,,you might be able to tell by pulling dust cover off tranny and looking at throw out bearing that way , put it on rack or get under it

 

[AJ/FormS]

Ok here are some pointers from a guy who has been running A833s almost continuously since 1970.
1) you do not need an arbor, to hold the needle-rollers in place during a rebuild; just use a light grease; not Vaseline which at room temperature is barely grease. It is called jelly for a reason.
2) I used to use 100% Dextron-II cuz it makes for a superfast-shifting trans. however, it does not provide enough protection to the cluster pin, and you have to remove, and rotate the pin every few years, and cut a new slot for the woodruff key. So, I took the trans apart and modified the cones to shed oil faster, then switched to 50% 75W90 GL-5 gear oil. Now my cluster pins last for many years.
3) if you install full synthetic oil, be prepared to flush it out. I could not make it work no-how; At rpm it was just too slippery, and the synchros could not do their jobs. I had the trans down FOUR times in two weeks trying to make thatchit work. As soon as I went back to 50/50 it shifted like lightning, so to all you naysayers out there, yes, full-synthetic works... if you shift like a grandma.
BTW
My record to drop the trans, with the car on a 4-post hoist, with the GVod still attached, is 17 minutes, Yes I had a helper on one end, when it came time to dropping it.
4) I used to be a transmission rebuilder. As far as 4-speeds go, rebuilding the A833 is about a easy as it gets; with the Saginaw a strong competor.
5) IDK what your noise is.
By your description, it should be the front bearing. But if it was, the evidence would be in the oil. If the noise goes away in DIRECT gear while cruising, that would again point to the Front bearing.
I guess we'll see.

 

[67Dart273]

Some random thoughts......

Look CAREFULLY for ANYTHING touching the car body/ crossmemeber/ broken steel on steel mount, etc. "Transmitting noise."

WHAT DO YOU have for a shifter ball / handle.......Decades ago a friend of mine had an ANNOYING noise from a cue ball shift knob, as did I, evidently caused by the air cavity due to a deep hole

In my cause this problem (with the ball) assisted in some EXPENSIVE repairs to my 69 RR 383 4 speed, "what happened"

Me, inexperienced, made this cue ball shift knob, as did my friend. Noisy. Unknown to me, the big rear ball bearing was failing, pitted balls and race, noisy, gaining play in the thrust, and later BREAKING APART as the balls left the bearing

This cause damage to a tooth on the cluster and a ruined tooth on the pinion (main drive gear.) It also, because the mainshaft now was walking fore/ aftt, damaged the nose of the main shaft

I let a machine shop talk me into putting a "hardened collar, better than new" on the main shaft, replaced the main drive gear, and gambled on the cluster, with a small chip in a tooth.

It came apart again!!

That time it needed a cluster, ANOTHER main drive gear, and the mainshaft collar repair was failing, so a new mainshaft. I believe I had the gearbox out of that thing 4 times.

 

[TrailBeast]

It does occur to me that I'm worried about no big deal. Is it noisy? Certainly. Is it a problem? Maybe not?

I don't generally sit IN the car with it idling. That I think it's a brand new noise could be incorrect on my part. Sounds like trouble to me. Reading about noises the 833 makes with a Dexron fill...maybe it's normal.

It's worth the $50 it will cost to replace the Dexron with a qualified gear oil. I ordered a gallon of GL4 today.

Fun with words: Every bottle on the NAPA store shelf (except Royal Purple...which expressly said it was safe for yellow metal) said it was good for 'non-synchronized' manual transmissions. How many of those are in play? One brand (GL5) said it was good for transmissions, but did NOT specifically say it was OK for yellow metal. That brand did not have the 'non-synchronized' verbiage.

I realize gear oil composition has changed over time. I do not understand the 'dancing with words' garbage on the labels. Yes, I should be familiar with JASO this and API that...but I am not. I simply want to buy the right stuff.

Reading the labels with comprehension...that is an impossible task.

I settled for a jug of Sta-Lube GL4. Label says it's good for manual transmissions, does not specify yellow metal exceptions or acceptions.

Maybe the noise will go away.

Maybe I'll put my name on Brewer's nine month wait list for another trans.

I might order a repair kit and 'test drive' its install on another 833 I have with other problems (main shaft wobble). If that works, I'll have a spare when mine actually grenades....from noise/damage I didn't hear before it blew up 'cuz it's got thick goo in it for lube.

I used to be the stickshift (manual trans) diagnostician and builder for a nationwide chain.

In neutral with the clutch out does sound like it could be the input shaft bearing, but when the clutch is out the counter gear cluster is also spinning.
This means it could be those, or the input to output shaft bearings (or even all the above)
This necessitates the inspection of all bearings, or it could end up coming out multiple times to chase the noise.
Hint: Bearings get noisier when the oil is rinsed out.

 

[canyncarvr]

Most likely the throw out bearing as clutch fork movement causes noise when releasing clutch pedal , maybe front bearing but I really don't think so,, unbolt and pull tranny back and and look

TO bearing does not touch the plate fingers when running, clutch pedal not pressed. When the noise is going on...the TO bearing is not moving.

WHAT DO YOU have for a shifter ball / handle.......Decades ago a friend of mine had an ANNOYING noise from a cue ball shift knob, as did I, evidently caused by the air cavity due to a deep hole

A Hurst T-handle with a Line-Loc button.

That time it needed a cluster, ANOTHER main drive gear, and the mainshaft collar repair was failing, so a new mainshaft. I believe I had the gearbox out of that thing 4 times.

I hope to not be so lucky with my noises.

This occurred to me: Some years back I knew a guy that put a ceramic clutch in his Gen-2 Cummins Dodge. He pulled 20,000lbs. with it. The truck seemed to care less. You only knew you had 20Klbs. on your butt when you used the brakes. The clutch outfit said the clutch would make noise. Oh Yeah! It sounded like something was going to grenade. That never happened. The noise his trans made with that clutch is similar to what I'm hearing. The clutch mfg. referred to it as 'gear over-run'. That doesn't fit the definition of which I am familiar.

If the noise goes away in DIRECT gear while cruising, that would again point to the Front bearing.

I don't hear it when driving. I hear it ONLY sitting..in neutral...clutch pedal not pushed.

Got my GL-4 goo yesterday. I'll know this weekend if the noise is worse/better/the same.

 

[AJ/FormS]

I don't hear it when driving. I hear it ONLY sitting..in neutral...clutch pedal not pushed.

Since you mentioned the engine vibrating, I gotta tell ya:
running and sittin in Neutral the clutch is spinning with the engine, and so is the transmission Input gear, and the cluster and every gear on the mainshaft. Only the synchronizers are stationary on the stationary mainshaft.
Stay with me now;
If the engine is the source of the vibration, it often happens that said vibration causes the cluster to rattle amongst the gears and specifically against the Input gear.
Therefore, I would look to the engine FIRST before dropping the trans.
The most common thing to cause a vibration of the type you describe, would be a contaminant in the fuel.
The second most common thing would be debris in the idle bleeds.
The Third would be a vacuum leak, as what happens when a cap falls off a port.
Other sources would be a camlobe going down, over-advanced ignition timing, or a compression problem in one hole, as when the headgasket lets go.
I think I would at least check the engine first ,.............

 

[Phreakish]

If the noise goes away in DIRECT gear while cruising, that would again point to the Front bearing.
I guess we'll see.

I was going to state exactly this.
I had the same noise that went away with the clutch in. Was the front bearing. Trans was fine until it wasn't. I was running 75wt gear oil and the bearing noise was awful.
When bearings make noise, they're a problem. Bearings fail due to fatigue and will start to shed very sharp steel into the oil.
My first experiences inside a transmission were fwd 5spds. These 833s are cake in comparison. So easy to rebuild. Order the whole kit from a place like brewers and get their alignment rod. Makes it so easy that there's no excuse to avoid the full rebuild.
Getting the reverse gear out was the toughest part for me, but a section of pipe and some nuts, bolts, and washers made for an quick press-out fixture. Was super easy to clean all the guts to perfection too.

Hope you get it worked out.