When to say "too bad to fix"

[Toolman]

Just looking for some opinions here. I'm sure there is a wealth of information here on when and "when not" to attempt a restoration project. The reasons may be different, such as body (frame/unibody) damage from an accident, rust (or both if your really unlucky), or the old money issue.
For conversation sake only, let's focus on the RUST issue. When is there just too much RUST to fix? Is there an amount of unibody (frame rail) RUST where common sense (safety) would prohibit the person from replacing all the needed parts? Does this actually carry over to the money issue when all is said and done (value vs. cost)?
Let's assume a person of reasonable ability to wrench, weld, and paint is able to do most of, if not all of the work...what would be the main reasons for him (or her) to just say "no" it's not practical to fix that car.
As usual thanks again for any opinions/responses...O

 

[doug 371]

only when time or money is an issue

 

[zfriedbauer]

I think most rust is repairable, but in the case of my valiant, it would've cost me more time and money than the car was really worth. The whole floor, trunk, and several body panels were full of rust. I decided it was a parts car. Use your judgement.

 

[Corrupt_Reverend]

I won't touch a car with rusted out windscreen sills.

I was checking out a '68 Impala shortly before buying the dart. Had a good running 327, the paint was rough but workable, trans shifted well. But the rear windscreen sill was rotted away. As soon as I saw that, I walked.

Rust in most other areas can be dealt with if the price is right, but fixing a rusted out windscreen sill is just a PITA to do right.

 

[UDUST81]

i think it all depends on how much time youre willing to spend in the case of a body mopars unless its a gts dart or something youre almost always gonna have more money into it than its worth imo

 

[barbee6043]

I won't touch a car with rusted out windscreen sills.

I was checking out a '68 Impala shortly before buying the dart. Had a good running 327, the paint was rough but workable, trans shifted well. But the rear windscreen sill was rotted away. As soon as I saw that, I walked.

Rust in most other areas can be dealt with if the price is right, but fixing a rusted out windscreen sill is just a PITA to do right.

just curious?? what is an Impala "windscreen sill" ???????

 

[Corrupt_Reverend]

windscreen/windshield whatever ya wanna call it. The sill being the area where the glass meets the metal. Stamped channel filled with sealant goop.

 

[Woods74]

I think most rust is repairable, but in the case of my valiant, it would've cost me more time and money than the car was really worth. The whole floor, trunk, and several body panels were full of rust. I decided it was a parts car. Use your judgement.

I went the other way, but I did it all myself, wanted to learn to beat a panel, and hell yeah I learned to beat a panel! The first answer is the correct one.

 

[ragtopfury]

Depends what it's worth to you.

Jake's 65 and my 69 Fury ragtop, by most people's opinion should have been parts cars.

The Fury was complete and given to me by the original owner and I learned myself to weld and do bodywork on it. Started with the floors and worked my way up and out on it. I even installed the top myself. I could at least break even if I were to sell it....

Jake's car was a true father/son project as his 1st ride. We have more in it than what it's worth, I'm sure. Especially if you count the hours. Was it worth the experience? Absolutely.

 

[QuintinMotorCompany]

I am also pondering this as I have my dad's old 1963 polara but it needs floors.trunk.. Fenders,hood,2 doors and trunk lid and much much more but it has a lot of sentimental value

 

[mopar head]

If your the type that`s looking for resale value don`t bother.
If you accept a daunting challenge, go for it. It`s a labor of luv, gives you something to do.
builds your skillset, spends more of your money if you buy specialty sheetmetal equipment.
I`ve been working on a project for 5 years now, about 70 percent finished.
Will I get my investment back? hell no, I do it for the challenge and experience.
Will I ever take a basket case on again? probably not.
I replaced the whole bottom of my 52 Dodge, All custom made, rockers, recessed firewall, everything. Total PIA, It`ll be worth it in the end, only to me:sign3:

 

[318willrun]

Up to the person. If the car has sentimental value, perhaps no price it too high (assuming you have the money). Other than that, if it's going cost more to fix it right than buying a good one, then it becomes a parts car. There is an exception, if you just want a "bum around car or coffee car" as some would call it, maybe you just pull out the pop-rivets and sheet metal and start plugging holes. For me personally, I like a clean, solid underneath. A hole in the floor pan due to wiper seals leaking is ok, I don't like a hole due to salt, because that means the rest of the underneath is probably brown, flakey, YUK!!!!!!

 

[krazykuda]

I am also pondering this as I have my dad's old 1963 polara but it needs floors.trunk.. Fenders,hood,2 doors and trunk lid and much much more but it has a lot of sentimental value

I guess it depends on how much available resources you have.

If you can do the body work yourself, then you just have to get sheet metal and have at it.

If you need a body man the price can get $$$$$ fast...


It also depends on how much of a perfectionist you are. That determines how much time and effort it will take to get it right, no matter who does the work.


If you really love the car and are willing to put all of that into it, that is your choice and there is nothing wrong with it. Keep in mind that you will not get all of that back out of it if you decide to sell it. Sentimental value may get you to invest more money than others will be willing to pay for it. But it has to be worth it to you. If you are going to put that much time, money, effort into it, you should keep it when it's done....

 

[66Dvert]

Just looking for some opinions here. I'm sure there is a wealth of information here on when and "when not" to attempt a restoration project. The reasons may be different, such as body (frame/unibody) damage from an accident, rust (or both if your really unlucky), or the old money issue.
For conversation sake only, let's focus on the RUST issue. When is there just too much RUST to fix? Is there an amount of unibody (frame rail) RUST where common sense (safety) would prohibit the person from replacing all the needed parts? Does this actually carry over to the money issue when all is said and done (value vs. cost)?
Let's assume a person of reasonable ability to wrench, weld, and paint is able to do most of, if not all of the work...what would be the main reasons for him (or her) to just say "no" it's not practical to fix that car.
As usual thanks again for any opinions/responses...O

it's all in what you are willing to dob and how much money VS time your willing to spend. Most rust issues on the A's are going to make you so far underwater in money/time and just work labor that a lot of people "just say NO". Even a 1 of 1 GTS or an "E" or "B" body can go underwater fast depending on the level of rust and damage. so it all really boils down to the "money" factor questions.
1. Am I willing to throw tons of money at the car to get it done in a hurry? (will the checkbook stay open long enough and will it be deep enough to finish the car?)
this is the first and major option that a lot of folks go with. (or buy one already done) it sure does save headaches.
or
2. Am I willing to slow down and do it myself, thereby saving a 1/2 ton or more of that money?
3. Do I have a listing of stuff I CAN do now and a list of what I WILL need to learn?
4. Am I willing to learn the new stuff?
5. do I have the tools to accomplish the job (if not look at #1 cause you going to open that checkbook a LOT)
6. Do I have the room? OR long term storage for the parts?(believe me when you take apart a car it gets to take up a LOT of room).
7. If you do it yourself and are you willing for it to take as long as it takes?
8. Are you willing to make a realistic list of what you envision how the car should look? (not just say I want a "lowered, big wheel, pro touring and a stroker engine" sort of car, I mean a "look here is what I envision in detail" sort of car. (that will bring you down to reality real quick once the prices start to list out or your back to the #1 question again)

If your able answer yes to most of these questions then the project is doable. If not then it's too far gone for you to fix it. (some one might be looking fir just that type of car to repair on their terms, so don't part it out right away,list it as a project first.)

I was able to say yes to almost all of them (except #1 and some of #5, but hey I LIKE buying new tools)

Also I usually don't have a lot of money, But time I do have. New skills to learn and I have a decent (still too small, but I'm saving for that 10x40 addon to the back) garage. I already know that the car I work on will usually be underwater fast, heck I just finished up the bodywork,interior and paint on a 69 charger(4 years of work and added a hemi too!) for a friend and we might break even if he was to sell it, but it's his dream car.


As for me, All my cars were sold to me as being too bad to fix or not worth the money. Every one of them will get finished and every one of them will be underwater on time and or money. I like working on the cars for relaxation,even though the wife thinks I'm a spaced out nutzo for thinking that it's relaxing considering some of the language I use out there) . Parts wise I'm in the lower range (because I can fix trim, I can weld aluminum and blah,blah blah) but the underwater part is my time/labor that I put into these cars and it just can't be added into the calculation realistically My 66 dart convertible is time wise about 18k-20k underwater from labor alone. part wise I'm in the 3k-4k range including buying it for about 500.00. No it's not a rare car,no it's not one of one, will I ever get my money back? for the parts yeah sure, labor? not a snowballs chance in he$$. but it's MINE and I did it my way and I like it, so it's worth it to me AND it's practice for the wife's 66 dart convertible that WILL be a show car type of restoration while I drive the heck out of mine!

 

[Toolman]

My car is a 1970 dart swinger 340 4-speed, sublime green with a black vinyl roof. i have the number matching engine, trans., rear end., fender tag and build sheet (from under rear seat). I bought the car from the original owner back in 1973, sold it once a few years later... then bought it back a year after i sold it. have had it ever since...a lot of memories.

 

[Toolman]

Thanks for all the responses guys.
My car is a 1970 dart swinger 340 4-speed...sublime green with a black vinyl roof. i have the numbers matching engine, trans., rear end, fender tag, and build sheet (from under the rear seat).
i bought the car when i was 17 back in 1973. i sold it once and bought it back a year or so after i sold it (with a freeze plug popped). I have had it ever since...lots of memories.

 

[harrisonm]

Totally depends on what you are willing to have in it when you are done. Doesn't matter whether it's a 70 Hemi Cuda or a 69 Dart. If you are willing to spend $50K to have a 69 Dart restored that will only be worth $30K when you are done, go for it. If you are willing to buy a ROUGH 70 Hemi Cuda for $20K and spend another $150K (just a wild guess) on the restoration to have a car worth $120K (just wild guesses on all numbers), that is up to you too. But know that up front and don't complain when you sell it for a huge loss. Emotional ties can offset some of that. If you can do all your own work and that work is therapy, that is fine to, but it still boils down to how much money and effort you are willing to invest and what the end result will be.

 

[d5667]

The reason there are so many project cars is we have so many unrealistic owners.Call it a hobby-labor of love-passion whatever you want but the bottom line is(money)!!!! That is the yardstick that you will eventually use.When you see a car that you have put money and time in sell for half what you have in it,somehow it looses its- hobby-labor of love status. If you really want to understand the cutoff point of fix vs rebuild buy a shop manual for your car that has estimated time for the jobs it needs. You will soon find the reason to total so many vehicles.Good Luck on every project you start but don't be disillusioned some people have had the same project for twenty years.

 

[72bluNblu]

Forget "making money" on the car, right off the bat. The only way to make money on cars is to buy them for less than they're worth and sell them for more. As soon as you start turning wrenches you're almost certainly working on a deficit. There are obviously a few exceptions, but more than likely, you're not going to be one of them.

So really, as far as I'm concerned, there's only two questions to ask. Can you finish the car? Do you want to? Sure, a lot goes into that. You need to have enough money to buy the parts you need, the time to put in the labor, and the skill/ability to fix what needs to be fixed. If you've got all that, then you just have to want to do it. If you don't have the desire, there's no point, even if you have the money, time and ability. Keep in mind that the longer it takes you, the less likely you're going to have the desire to see it through.

As far as rust goes, I would say its only a matter of how much you can afford to spend on sheet metal if you can do the work yourself. People get really worked up about frame rust for some reason, and I don't understand why. Frame rails are a heck of a lot easier to replace than a quarter panel is. Suspension points can be +/- a 1/4" on these cars, try being that far off on a quarter panel and getting everything to line up. Heck getting a door lined up properly is probably the most time consuming, patience trying job on these cars. And that's true on a STOCK car with no repairs!

 

[Toolman]

Are there any guidelines for bracing a car before cutting out unibody frame sections. Any do's and don'ts that I should be aware of...or any recommended sequence to replace the rusted parts? I'm looking at front and rear frame rail sections, inner fenders, torsion bar/trans. support, trunk extensions and parts of the floor before I even get to the body panels. ale:

 

[chryslerfat]

Depends on the car a /6 74 I would not fix a rusty frame but a GTS I would.

 

[sireland67]

Are there any guidelines for bracing a car before cutting out unibody frame sections. Any do's and don'ts that I should be aware of...or any recommended sequence to replace the rusted parts? I'm looking at front and rear frame rail sections, inner fenders, torsion bar/trans. support, trunk extensions and parts of the floor before I even get to the body panels. ale:

Spend some time reading this thread, this guy has done a ton of rust repair.

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=212719

 

[71 swinger34]

I know its been some months Toolman, but how is your project going? I have a 71 swinger for my project that has a lot of rot, left rear frame is rotted bad, quarters are rotted, replaced the inner fenders, and so on. So I know how you feel about being unsure and overwhelmed. My swinger is not a like yours a 340 4-speed, its a simple 318 auto, so I know its not going to be worth a quarter of what Im going to put in it call me crazy, but its personnel to me, I've always wanted to restore a dart and do what I want to it. I'm ok with spending the time and the money on this project. Its my journey with "my" car, and my learning experience, I can tell you this, all these guys in this forum feel the same way about their cars. I look foreword to seeing your project in progress! Maybe we can bounce some ideas off each other.

 

[toolmanmike]

Yep, lots of good info here but you have to decide. It's about how much time, money, experience, or facilities you have. And yes some cars should be retired. I have a friend that found a Super Bee that he bought for parts. He opened the trunk and could see the bottom of the inside of the gas tank with the lid open. The front rails were shot, He had to reinforce it to put it on the hoist. The floors were gone too. The body was shook, the glass channels were cheese. Well you get the picture. Too far gone to rebuild! Can you say parts car? It wasn't a 440 or Hemi car so it wasn't worth a ton done.

 

[Blind Squirrel]

When to say to bad?

When I can't find the parts or pieces to fix it or if I can't make it myself to fix it.