Why?

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Why do you guys swap to the newer Hemi engines and not keep the LA or Magnum engines?

I am old school..if I want to see a new hemi ..I will just pop my engine bonnet on my Ram...I like the full spectrum of the "old" engines...

But then again...I like the sound of records better that the sanitized digital...

Grassy
 
-It's pretty much gonna start without having to worry about chokes, flooding, washing down the cylinders with raw fuel, etc.

That's an easy fix with something like an ez efi kit. Gonna be close to a grand to buy and install it right though.

Is a 68 Barracuda still a 68 Barracuda with a modern drivetrain, sound insulation, big wattage system, leather interior, temperature control, etc.?

Damn right it still a 68 barracuda. It's just what it would have been if all the tech was avalible back then. Nothing wrong with improving a car.
 
Sounds like Uhcoog1 made a stock power steering box fit with a 5.7 Hemi, by building his own headers. Not exactly a fix, but means it's not impossible.

See post here
 
I think a few people have modded the exhaust enough to run a stock power steering box, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, it's been a while. I thought some people had tried either with the truck log manifolds or maybe the SRT8 Jeep "shorty" header style setup. Pretty sure there was someone else who made their own header and got it around the box, but maybe I'm just remembering what I want to remember and not what's actually happened. I tried to stay low buck, so I just swapped to manual, which isn't too bad aside from parking lots. I just wish the setup felt tighter like rack and pinion. No amount of adjustment in my old components will get me anywhere near that.

And just because you swap the engine doesn't mean you have to go the full 9 yards on modernization. The engine is the only real new tech I have in mine right now. Still have an old A833 four speed behind it and an 8 3/4 behind that. I have some buckets out of a Viper in the car, but only because they came with the car and the factory style buckets were trashed. I just see it as a powertrain upgrade, doesn't mean the rest of the car has to lose the flavor. Mine actually even looks old under the hood to some degree. Put a carb style 4 bbl throttle body on it since I sold the stock intake when I went carb to start with. Still has the classic air cleaner look which actually makes the hood scoop more useful. I never have liked the new front mount throttle body look in old cars, just doesn't fit right.
 
I never have liked the new front mount throttle body look in old cars, just doesn't fit right.

Too funny. That's one of the things I love about the new Hemi. Purely an emotional reaction, but I really like it. I like it so much, I've thought about cutting up a Magnum beer keg intake and trying to duplicate it some.

I will say, I think one of the real technical advangements the new motors have is in the intakes. Some have dual runners for low and high rpm use, flow better than the old carb styles, and most are far lighter. At least, that's what I understand.

Not knocking your opinion, it just struck me as funny.
 
I want to thank each and every member again for all your input into this thread! Im now just sitting back and reading and the more I read, the more I want to do this some day! The big thing......gas mileage! I hate having to stop and fill up after 150 miles just to make sure I make it to my parents house. Perhaps someday, this swap will happen for me!
 
Straightline--If you ever want to make a trip to Wisconsin.I'll be HAPPY to take you out in the country for a ride in my Duster with the 5.7 in it,Hell I'll let you drive it,You will then realize WHY i did the swap in my Duster,I don't even have to open the hood for you THEN we'll go for a ride in a 68 valiant with a built 340 and you will FEEL the difference.I put up with a LOT of **** from people here for putting a carbed 5.7 in my duster--it comes down to WHAT YOU want in YOUR car that YOUR spending your MONEY on,Hell even these so called MOPAR people have the guts to say that the NEW Hemi AIN'T even a TRUE Hemi because of the quench in the bowls of the heads.Before you take any advise from anyone here ask if they have the experience and knowledge you are looking for and there is plenty here and great guy's but beware of the na-sayers that post pics of car's they cut up and sold but still display to make people think "they are the man" if you ever want any question answered about this swap just P.M me I have helped a few around here with there questions.--Steve
 
Straightline--If you ever want to make a trip to Wisconsin.I'll be HAPPY to take you out in the country for a ride in my Duster with the 5.7 in it,Hell I'll let you drive it,You will then realize WHY i did the swap in my Duster,I don't even have to open the hood for you THEN we'll go for a ride in a 68 valiant with a built 340 and you will FEEL the difference.I put up with a LOT of **** from people here for putting a carbed 5.7 in my duster--it comes down to WHAT YOU want in YOUR car that YOUR spending your MONEY on,Hell even these so called MOPAR people have the guts to say that the NEW Hemi AIN'T even a TRUE Hemi because of the quench in the bowls of the heads.Before you take any advise from anyone here ask if they have the experience and knowledge you are looking for and there is plenty here and great guy's but beware of the na-sayers that post pics of car's they cut up and sold but still display to make people think "they are the man" if you ever want any question answered about this swap just P.M me I have helped a few around here with there questions.--Steve

What you carbed a 5.7 Hemi!!!. :D I've heard plenty of carbed hemi's on youtube, they sound like a NASCAR when they smash the go pedal. I've posted plenty about my preference for EFI, but in all honesty, sticking with EFI probably cost me an extra year in my build.

I Love your post. Basically it says, Once a naysayer takes a ride they will STFU." As the old saying goes, "When the green flag drops the BS stops."

You're also right about getting first hand knowledge, not that there isn't reliable and good secondary sources but whenever I read a post that says, "I heard...." I think to myself, better verify this before going forward.

Regards,

Joe Dokes
 
I put up with a LOT of **** from people here for putting a carbed 5.7 in my duster


i've never really seen anyone here give anyone "****" for using a carb. i have seen people question why people choose to use a carb instead of taking advantage of all the newer technology (hell one guy has to by law in his country). others state why they would use the efi over the carb and vise-versa. i hardly call that giving anyone "****". sounds like a good conversation with guys explaining what side of the fence they are on. but i guess if ya have thin skin it could be taken differently. it all comes down to what you and a ton of guys around here say. you car, your money your way. only reason i can see anyone getting upset over someone questioning why they did something a certain way is if they were second guessing themselves to begin with. the internet is the last place someone should let get to them.
 
I welded headers to fit around my factory power steering box. It works, but it's tight. Not the best solution, but definitely the cheapest.

Abodyjoe- there was one carbed hemi guy who left the forum because of another member who told him how stupid he was for doing so. It was too bad. The carbed hemi guys have been quite defensive since then.

I know of at least one back to back EFI vs carb ls1 dyno magazine article that showed the carb with higher hp with all cams tested. On the other hand, it's tough to beat the part throttle tuneability of EFI.
 
I welded headers to fit around my factory power steering box. It works, but it's tight. Not the best solution, but definitely the cheapest.

Abodyjoe- there was one carbed hemi guy who left the forum because of another member who told him how stupid he was for doing so. It was too bad. The carbed hemi guys have been quite defensive since then.

I know of at least one back to back EFI vs carb ls1 dyno magazine article that showed the carb with higher hp with all cams tested. On the other hand, it's tough to beat the part throttle tuneability of EFI.

They can show me dyno tests all they want, but at the end of the day, what do i want drive? The answer is fairly obvious.
 
Abodyjoe- there was one carbed hemi guy who left the forum because of another member who told him how stupid he was for doing so. It was too bad. The carbed hemi guys have been quite defensive since then.

like i said if you let anything on the internet get to you then you have a problem. too sensitive man, put the big boys pants on and get over it. :)
 
I know of at least one back to back EFI vs carb ls1 dyno magazine article that showed the carb with higher hp with all cams tested. On the other hand, it's tough to beat the part throttle tuneability of EFI.

i guess its possible is a controlled atmosphere like a dyno room. now get into the real world where the weather and altitude actually change and see which is better.
 
Here's the article. The difference is probably due to intake design, and not carb/EFI.
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/hrdp_0909_gm_ls_engine_cam_test/viewall.html
My point is posting this is not to say that a carb or EFI is superior to the other. But that for someone to say the use of one is a bad choice under all circumstances is just stupid and ignorant.

I prefer EFI. The tunability is what I like the most. Changes to the tune are immediate and calculated.
 
Too funny. That's one of the things I love about the new Hemi. Purely an emotional reaction, but I really like it. I like it so much, I've thought about cutting up a Magnum beer keg intake and trying to duplicate it some.

I will say, I think one of the real technical advangements the new motors have is in the intakes. Some have dual runners for low and high rpm use, flow better than the old carb styles, and most are far lighter. At least, that's what I understand.

Not knocking your opinion, it just struck me as funny.

I completely agree with you that the new designs are really the ticket. You can do a lot with technology and CAD design today to really optimize things and get the most out of any situation. I like the low profile look when the intakes nestle down between the heads really clean, but when there's a right angle tube off the front of the engine over to the side it just kind of breaks up the flow for me. The older engine bays just aren't really designed for an airbox to the side like that and having an open filter sitting there just seems a little weird to me. A filter straight off the front pleases my eye a little more, but there's not much room to do that in an A body at least.

The fun old school look I have was really a complete accident. Wasn't planning to swap back to EFI so soon after the carb swap, but couldn't let the deal on the computer pass by and I was having a hard time getting my carb dialed in anyway. I figure I'm probably about the only guy out there with an Indy ModMan set up for port injection with a 4 bbl throttle body on top on a 3G Hemi. Anyone with some sense would just stick with the factory manifold, but I already sold it, lol.
 
My carb 6.1 hemi goes on the chassis dyno next Saturday...I have already experienced some minor AF tuning frustrations with the Modman intake between cruise and part throttle...

A slightly rich cruise and a lean part throttle which I cant bring any closer due to the calibration kits limitations.

Intersting that WOT has been the easiest stage to get right....
 
Oh cool, you ended up going with the Mod Man? I've been away for quite a while and haven't kept up with everyone's projects. I remember you were considering it as one of the few carb options out there. I had a hell of a time trying to figure my carb out. Had a Carter AFB that was rated at 625 cfm, which should have been plenty for my bone stock 5.7. It would cruise pretty nice, but just didn't have much punch at WOT. I played with jets some and rigged up the stock O2 sensor to get a rough idea of what was going on (simple little circuit that had LEDs for rich or lean), but never quite figured it out. If you went full throttle from cruise it would flat out fall on its face and almost die. If you rolled into the throttle it would pick up okay, but just never had the top end I was expecting. Played with several jets and rods and was never happy. Looked into getting another carb and ended up finding the Megasquirt instead.
 
Sounds like you might have needed more shooter........

Once I sussed I had air starvation issues and swapped my air cleaner, I found my AVS a peach to tune...within certain parameters.
 
Here's the article. The difference is probably due to intake design, and not carb/EFI.
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/hrdp_0909_gm_ls_engine_cam_test/viewall.html
My point is posting this is not to say that a carb or EFI is superior to the other. But that for someone to say the use of one is a bad choice under all circumstances is just stupid and ignorant.

I prefer EFI. The tunability is what I like the most. Changes to the tune are immediate and calculated.

a single plane with mech secondary carb will outflow (cfm) most of the efi kits, because they are designed for street use. not the electronics part, but the actual size of the inlets/venturi/etc. the physical part is not sized big for very high rpm / high output use.

your mileage will be quite low though haha.

so really, it depends on what you plan on doing with the car. drag race, mileage is your last concern, high output best ET is what matters.

street use, sure you want something peppy but good mileage too and something that cruises smoothly. you want something that can sneak out of the neighborhood without having to run 3000rpm's in case you want to go out at 6:30 am to get coffee and not wake everyone up lol.
so EFI is fine.

i dont buy into the crap that newer is better though. "new technology" does nothing for me. so if i WAS racing on the strip constantly and ET mattered and i wanted a bulletproof setup i probably would not go EFI and probably would not run nitrous. i doubt i would invest in a new hemi since it's not designed to be a racing engine. for the street it's great.
 
a single plane with mech secondary carb will outflow (cfm) most of the efi kits, because they are designed for street use. not the electronics part, but the actual size of the inlets/venturi/etc. the physical part is not sized big for very high rpm / high output use.

your mileage will be quite low though haha.

so really, it depends on what you plan on doing with the car. drag race, mileage is your last concern, high output best ET is what matters.

street use, sure you want something peppy but good mileage too and something that cruises smoothly. you want something that can sneak out of the neighborhood without having to run 3000rpm's in case you want to go out at 6:30 am to get coffee and not wake everyone up lol.
so EFI is fine.

i dont buy into the crap that newer is better though. "new technology" does nothing for me. so if i WAS racing on the strip constantly and ET mattered and i wanted a bulletproof setup i probably would not go EFI and probably would not run nitrous. i doubt i would invest in a new hemi since it's not designed to be a racing engine. for the street it's great.

while you do have a point,i believe moneywise the new hemi is superior in its capability to make power with the stock block and heads compared to the old LA or Magnum smallblocks,this is as long as we are talking stock block and heads, however if you start building an 48degre R3 there is a different ballgame.. but i firmly believe that the new hemi will be a very costefficient solution up to and maybe beyond 1000HP given some time,these new gen engines will handle alot of boost with the right components.

yes i have been doing some research on this and i doubt i will ever put my twinscrew ontop of the 340,it will be a handgrenade with the pin pulled,held by a kid in a candyfactory while i believe that with a good rotatingkit a somewhat basic new hemi will take all the boost that screw can produce and live a fairly long life.
 
a single plane with mech secondary carb will outflow (cfm) most of the efi kits, because they are designed for street use. not the electronics part, but the actual size of the inlets/venturi/etc. the physical part is not sized big for very high rpm / high output use.

your mileage will be quite low though haha.

so really, it depends on what you plan on doing with the car. drag race, mileage is your last concern, high output best ET is what matters.

street use, sure you want something peppy but good mileage too and something that cruises smoothly. you want something that can sneak out of the neighborhood without having to run 3000rpm's in case you want to go out at 6:30 am to get coffee and not wake everyone up lol.
so EFI is fine.

i dont buy into the crap that newer is better though. "new technology" does nothing for me. so if i WAS racing on the strip constantly and ET mattered and i wanted a bulletproof setup i probably would not go EFI and probably would not run nitrous. i doubt i would invest in a new hemi since it's not designed to be a racing engine. for the street it's great.


Ummm, no.

A carburetor will not, cannot, and does not outflow the throttle bodies available for most EFI equipped cars today. For example the bone stock 81mm throttle body found on the modern hemi will flow over 900 cfm. 90mm throttle bodies flow over 1100 cfm.

http://kennebell.net/KBWebsite/Tech_Info_pg/layouts/turns_pg.htm

I don't think anyone running a naturally aspirated 5.7 or 6.1 Hemi is running a 900 cfm holley. Why? Because carburetors are simply a mechanical computer. The carburetor uses the pressure drop between the plenum and the atmosphere to draw fuel into the motor. This is called the venturi effect. As air travels through the restriction (ie the carb) it draws fuel through the jets and ports inside the carb into the manifold. If there is not pressure drop, or no restriction, no fuel is drawn into the motor. Now when you mash the go pedal for a brief moment there is in fact no pressure drop, vacuum falls to zero, and thus there is nothing to pull fuel into the motor. So carburetor designers add accelerator squirters to compensate for the lack of a signal or draw.

So if a carburetor doesn't out-flow a throttle body how come in test after test a carbureted engine typically makes 10 to 15 more HP? Since a carburetor atomizes the fuel in the plenum this atomization has the ability to cool the inlet charge enough to create a slightly denser intake charge which results in slightly more HP. When a gas expands (and fuel transitioning from a liquid state to a gaseous state is an expanding gas) it removes heat (gets colder), this cooling effect cools the entire intake charge.

If fuel atomization can have the ability to cool the intake charge and create more power, why don't automotive engineers place the injectors at the top of the intake runner, so that fuel can cool the intake charge and give us a little bit of free HP? In a port injected motor designers have figured out that aiming the injector at the back of the intake valve, and firing the valve when the valve is closed, allows the fuel to hit the backside of the hot (not exhaust valve hot, but still hot) intake valve and thus atomize more completely. This means that the car will drive well and there won't be any fuel puddling or other problems. In addition this setup allows for excellent driveability under a wide variety of circumstances.

Many custom intake manifolds for racing do infact move the injectors up the runners to take advantage of the cooling effect. For example F1 engines actually mount the injectors ABOVE the throttle plate. As a result, in my view if you were able to create an apples to apples comparison between an injection setup with the injectors strategically placed and a carbureted motor you'd find that the HP differential disappears. In fact given the ability to mount SEVERAL sets of injectors it would seem likely that an EFI motor would produce significantly more HP, especially considering that it doesn't have the obstruction created by a carburetor.

Further, since the difference is basically the difference in intake temp, we have to distinguish between a dyno number and the actual number from the car in a real world situation. A carbed motor with an open element air cleaner drawing hot underhood air may make less HP than an EFI motor with a cold air kit. Obviously, cold air kits exist for carbs too, but my larger point is that 15 HP advantage can suddenly disappear if a tuner lacks the basic understanding of the importance of underhood temperature.

Finally, again talking about the real world imagine you're racing Pikes Peak and going from 9000' to 14,000', no carburetor in the world could give you peak (pun intended) performance with a 5000' elevation change. You would have to pick a jet setup that struck a balance between performance at 9000' and 14,000'. With fuel injection, and dual MAP sensors the computer can send differing amounts of fuel to the motor depending upon real changes air density depending upon altitude. In addition, the computer can also take into consideration changes in air temp, and water temp. All of these things make EFI number more repeatable, more consistent.

The last time I checked repeatability and consistency were two critical factors in winning drag races.

In conclusion, your statement that the Gen III hemi is not suitable for racing is simply wrong. The stock block is capable of handling in excess of 1000 HP. There are innumerable 4000 pound Chargers, Challengers, Jeeps, and Magnums running 9 second quarter mile times. Any motor that can propel 4000 lbs to 150 MPH is entirely suited to racing.

Regards,

Joe Dokes
 
Spent some time thinking about this and came to the conclusion that the biggest advantage the new Hemi has over the LA is head flow, most tests I've seen show the 5.7 peaking at 260 cfm (the 6.1 is wicked (both in cost and power) so I'm not even talking about them). So, I got to thinking that since the Edelbrock LA heads flow about the same, maybe I could I get comparable performance with an LA 360 and aluminum heads for less money.

I wrote up a spreadsheet totaling the costs of a 5.7 swap verses a rebuilt 360 and I'm surprised to say that I'm not sure it would be a cost effective method of increasing my performance.

I looked a couple of options but the cheapest I could come up with was about $4000 to put a 5.7 in my Duster, using a cut up OE harness and flashed computer, truck intake and Jeep exhaust and building my own motor mounts. Top dog swap was $6200 if I swapped to a car intake and front cover with MS3 and just buying everything.

For the 360, if I just took my existing motor with the rebuilder pistons in it and 8.5:1 compression and only swapped to a better roller cam (already have one in the motor, so no need for lifters), carb, intake and Edelbrock heads, it would cost about $3000, but no EFI. Adding EFI bumped it up $5200, $1200 more than swapping to the Hemi. If I did a full rebuild so I could bump the compression up to 10:1 or so, plus the EFI, the total ran over $6800. Making the Hemi look pretty good.

Your numbers might be different, they are specific to my situation and swapping a Hemi into a 4 speed Duster. Tried to get everything included, but I'm sure I missed stuff. I was just curious to see the differences.

Also, I used the cost of a local 5.7 truck motor for my costing at $1600. Looked at car motors, but they cost a lot more. But even after tax, I wasn't much more than just the Edelbrock heads for the LA setup. Didn't call on the motor though, so I don't know if it included a wiring harness or accessories. I did include the cost of a used alternator and water pump in the costs, though.

So, unless you already have a good motor, I might be willing to argue that it would cost less to swap a Hemi into your car than build a good 360 from scratch.

BTW, costed a 6.1 out of curiousity and it totaled out at almost $10.5K, mostly because the motor was $5700 by itself.

Just some thoughts relating the original question of "Why?".
 
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