Won’t start

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Joel Chapman

Joel Chapman

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So as I’ve posted a few times now I just swapped my stock intake and 2 barrel carb to an LD4B Edelbrock intake and a 600 cfm Holley carb that I rebuilt. Also changed from the stock fuel pump to a mechanical Holley fuel pump. Everything else on the 318 is stock. Went to try and start the car last night and it wouldn’t start. It would want too when I had my foot on the gas but wouldn’t. Also had one pretty barely backfire through the carb. I never pulled the distributor during the intake swap. I did take the cap off but there was only one way to reinstall it. Also I’ve checked the fuel line going up to the carb and it leaks when I start to loosen up the fuel line. I haven’t checked for spark yet waiting on an extra set of hands for that. I found a ground that was Almost completely broken off and I haven’t tried starting the car since fixing that. My gas gauge has been off and it’s reading low so I am going to fill up my gas can and put about 4 gallons in the tank see if that helps. The engine ran fine before all this. Only did the swap since I had the parts and had a bad thermostat and leaking 2 barrel. I haven’t spotted any leaks or any other frayed wires or vacuum lines not connected. Any ideas on something I’m missing? Could it still be a timing issue even tho I never removed the distributor? Thank you in advance for the help.
 
If the ignition system wiring is intact and the plugs wires were not disturbed, and you did not move the distributor at all, then you ignition timing is not a prime suspect.

Easy to check the spark: Take the central spark wire from the distributor cap and place it 1/4" from metal and crank; you should see a steady stream of good sparks to the metal. You can then put that back and take one spark wire from a plug and do the same thing and see a good spark every 2 rotations.

Try this: Dump 1/2 of a bottle cap of fresh fuel down the carb throat and see if it will fire at all. It should sputter a few seconds if the spark is OK.

Take the sight plug out of the side of the carbs bowls and see if the fuel is up to the bottom of the holes. (Or look at the viewing port for fuel level if it is a newer carb with those.)

If there is fuel, then pump the gas 2-3 times, and then release the throttle, and see if it will start.

Is your fuel all fresh in the tank? If it is several months old, take it all out of the tank and flush the lines and start over with fresh. Modern fuel does not last worth a darn....
 
nm9stheham said:
If the ignition system wiring is intact and the plugs wires were not disturbed, and you did not move the distributor at all, then you ignition timing is not a prime suspect.

Easy to check the spark: Take the central spark wire from the distributor cap and place it 1/4" from metal and crank; you should see a steady stream of good sparks to the metal. You can then put that back and take one spark wire from a plug and do the same thing and see a good spark every 2 rotations.

Try this: Dump 1/2 of a bottle cap of fresh fuel down the carb throat and see if it will fire at all. It should sputter a few seconds if the spark is OK.

Take the sight plug out of the side of the carbs bowls and see if the fuel is up to the bottom of the holes. (Or look at the viewing port for fuel level if it is a newer carb with those.)

If there is fuel, then pump the gas 2-3 times, and then release the throttle, and see if it will start.

Is your fuel all fresh in the tank? If it is several months old, take it all out of the tank and flush the lines and start over with fresh. Modern fuel does not last worth a darn....
Click to expand...
Fuel is fresh. And as of last night gas was not up to the sight plugs.
 
Dump some gas down the carb and see if it fires, that will tell you if it's fuel or not
 
If fuel isn’t up to the sight plugs then the float settings could be off or its not getting a sufficient supply of fuel.
 
brian6pac said:
Dump some gas down the carb and see if it fires, that will tell you if it's fuel or not
Click to expand...
Put some gas down the carb and now have this

B6927808-0CBB-48DE-BE44-DF22CF7BA608.jpeg


54E04FCD-A959-492B-A6E7-6EB17684D464.jpeg
 
You will get some seepage out the throttle shafts when you dump fuel in on top of them, did you try to start it ?
 
Again... only put about 1/2 bottle cap of fuel down the carb. That is all you need for it to fire off and much more just floods the engine.

Not sure what 'this' is in the pix....???
 
Joel Chapman said:
It would want too when I had my foot on the gas but wouldn’t
Click to expand...
BIG CLUE here.
Foot on the gas steady = throttle partly open. It wanted start with more air available.
There is a world of difference between the factory automatic choke and whatever is on the Holley.
You'll have to feel it out. I'd open the Holley choke and start it without. Add fuel by pumping the gas bedal a few times. You'll see pump nozzles shooting fuel if you look. That's plenty. No need to pour more. Probbaly too much already,
Joel Chapman said:
Also had one pretty barely backfire through the carb
Click to expand...
Well that says (a) there's a ton of fuel-air in the intake. (b) spark fired while the corresponding intake valve was open.
Joel Chapman said:
Could it still be a timing issue even tho I never removed the distributor?
Click to expand...
Yes. See above.
One possibility is you tapped the vacuum cannister while changine intakes. That could have slightly rotated it.

Also, if the Holley has an electric choke and the factory did not have an electric assist, some mistake could have been in how the electric choke was wired in.
 
Mattax said:
BIG CLUE here.
Foot on the gas steady = throttle partly open. It wanted start with more air available.
There is a world of difference between the factory automatic choke and whatever is on the Holley.
You'll have to feel it out. I'd open the Holley choke and start it without. Add fuel by pumping the gas bedal a few times. You'll see pump nozzles shooting fuel if you look. That's plenty. No need to pour more. Probbaly too much already,

Well that says (a) there's a ton of fuel-air in the intake. (b) spark fired while the corresponding intake valve was open.

Yes. See above.
One possibility is you tapped the vacuum cannister while changine intakes. That could have slightly rotated it.

Also, if the Holley has an electric choke and the factory did not have an electric assist, some mistake could have been in how the electric choke was wired in.
Click to expand...
How would I be able to check and see if I maybe bumped it like you said? I tried wiggling it last night to see if it was really easily moved and no bugging.

As far as the electric choke, I did wire one in but I used the blue wire off of the alternator that several people recommended on another post on this page.
 
Mattax said:
BIG CLUE here.
Foot on the gas steady = throttle partly open. It wanted start with more air available.
There is a world of difference between the factory automatic choke and whatever is on the Holley.
You'll have to feel it out. I'd open the Holley choke and start it without. Add fuel by pumping the gas bedal a few times. You'll see pump nozzles shooting fuel if you look. That's plenty. No need to pour more. Probbaly too much already,

Well that says (a) there's a ton of fuel-air in the intake. (b) spark fired while the corresponding intake valve was open.

Yes. See above.
One possibility is you tapped the vacuum cannister while changine intakes. That could have slightly rotated it.

Also, if the Holley has an electric choke and the factory did not have an electric assist, some mistake could have been in how the electric choke was wired in.
Click to expand...
Also couldn’t tell if gas was shooting out of the nozzle or not. Would it be enough gas that it would be obvious?
 
When you open the throttle you should see a big squirt of fuel into both front barrels
 
What is the history of this carb, new, used, stored for long time? Floats / needles may be stuck. Maybe someone rebuilt it did not rough in the float level. Maybe a lot of things

Compression, spark and fuel. That is what you need to run

Compression--ENOUGH. A worn out engine low as say, 75 psi compression could run If the thing has gotten too much fuel it may have "washed down" the rings, lowering compression, and fouled the plugs..........check them. Wet or dry they will tell you a story

Spark.......good spark and at right time. "Rig" a test gap out of coil and use a solid core wire, even if you must use a low voltage wire "hung in space." Cranking WITH THE KEY you should get a nice hot snappy blue spark at least 3/8 and typically 1/2" long. TIMING. Spark must be in time. You can double check timing on the starter with a light It is likely OK

Fuel. Fresh fuel, not too much, not too little. Hell I've fired engines WITHOUT a carburetor, just throw a little down the intake throats, about a tablespoon.
 
67Dart273 said:
What is the history of this carb, new, used, stored for long time? Floats / needles may be stuck. Maybe someone rebuilt it did not rough in the float level. Maybe a lot of things

Compression, spark and fuel. That is what you need to run

Compression--ENOUGH. A worn out engine low as say, 75 psi compression could run If the thing has gotten too much fuel it may have "washed down" the rings, lowering compression, and fouled the plugs..........check them. Wet or dry they will tell you a story

Spark.......good spark and at right time. "Rig" a test gap out of coil and use a solid core wire, even if you must use a low voltage wire "hung in space." Cranking WITH THE KEY you should get a nice hot snappy blue spark at least 3/8 and typically 1/2" long. TIMING. Spark must be in time. You can double check timing on the starter with a light It is likely OK

Fuel. Fresh fuel, not too much, not too little. Hell I've fired engines WITHOUT a carburetor, just throw a little down the intake throats, about a tablespoon.
Click to expand...

I bought the carb used off of eBay and rebuilt it. I did replace the needle and seats when I rebuilt it. I probably didn’t set the floats right or even close to right, but I did everything that a rebuilt book told me to do. But it looks like I did something wrong no gas is coming out when I move the lever on the carb.
 
With the choke plate open.
Using your hand on the throttle lever.
Rotate the throttles open.
As soon as you move the throttles, fuel should come out the accelerator pump nozzles.

easier to see in a photo without the choke plate
upload_2020-5-25_13-41-54.png


If not, check the pump arm, cam, and lever to be sure they are moving with the throttle.
If so, then its either pump check valve or no fuel in the bowls
 
Joel Chapman said:
I probably didn’t set the floats right or even close to right, but I did everything that a rebuilt book told me to do.
Click to expand...
Float level is critical for good operation.
It has to be ballpark to at least work decently.
Look at the list number on the choke tower and find a Holley instruction sheet with the dry float settings.

The bowl can be gravity fed and the carb doesn't care. Once the bowl is full the valve shuts.
It works just like an old fashioned toilet
https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/attachments/upload_2020-1-27_16-11-39-png.1715460157/

Probaly would be good to read on how a carb works.
Chrysler Tech did a decent job on the fundementals in 1966 and 1970
Look here
http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Lit/Master/
 
Mattax said:
With the choke plate open.
Using your hand on the throttle lever.
Rotate the throttles open.
As soon as you move the throttles, fuel should come out the accelerator pump nozzles.

easier to see in a photo without the choke plate
View attachment 1715534897

If not, check the pump arm, cam, and lever to be sure they are moving with the throttle.
If so, then its either pump check valve or no fuel in the bowls
Click to expand...
What would I be looking for on my check valve? My rebuild kit and the book I was using showed this as been a piece of rubber. My carb has a metal strap with a ball about the size of a bb in it.
 
Mattax said:
Float level is critical for good operation.
It has to be ballpark to at least work decently.
Look at the list number on the choke tower and find a Holley instruction sheet with the dry float settings.

The bowl can be gravity fed and the carb doesn't care. Once the bowl is full the valve shuts.
It works just like an old fashioned toilet
https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/attachments/upload_2020-1-27_16-11-39-png.1715460157/

Probaly would be good to read on how a carb works.
Chrysler Tech did a decent job on the fundementals in 1966 and 1970
Look here
Master Technician Service Conference - Chrysler's Training for Mechanics
Click to expand...
I found a check sheet that came with my rebuild but my carb number isn’t on it any where.
 
Are you , at least a capfulscared to crank it?
If you have already splashed gas down the primaries several times, then you may have washed the gas off the rings.Time to start over.
If you suspect this; pull the plugs and squirt some oil in there, don't be shy a couple of teaspoonfuls won't hurt it.
Then screw the 3/4" reach plugs in about half way and crank the engine over several revolutions to distribute the oil, then pull the plugs, clean up the mess and wash the plugs.
Let it sit for a half hour or so, while the plugs are drying, then re-install them.Then
make sure your fuel line is fully installed all clamps are tight and nothing is leaking. Then
like said; splash some gas down the primaries, if it was me it would be a couple of capfulls,lol; then,
floor it! and crank it! 20,30,40 seconds on round 1,keep it floored, if it takes that long .Unless you have a fuel leak; keep cranking and keep it floored and cranking until it actually runs on it's own, You will not hurt the starter; it has an overrunning clutch that can take this no problem.Once the rpms start to climb past say 1200/1500 let off on the starter, and buzz it up to 2000 for say 10/15 seconds...... Then see if it will idle. By now the pump has filled the bowls, and the float level is stabilized. and unless you screwed up, on the rebuild, everything should be peachy, and she's idling again.

With 2 capfulls down the primary, you have to keep it floored, else you WILL BE FLOODED AGAIN.
You HAVE TO KEEP CRANKING, because it is the heat of compression that is gonna make it possible to ignite that stinking rich mixture. and
You HAVE to KEEP CRANKING, to blow all that oil outta there which is just gonna get in the way of the fireballs. But you gotta have that oil in there to seal the rings to make the pressure, to build the heat so you got at least some of that gas willing to burn. So keep on cranking, until it hits on 4 or 5 or 6 cylinders, and the rpm is scooting up past 1500, cuz if you stop, crapp!
 
Last edited:
Joel Chapman said:
I found a check sheet that came with my rebuild but my carb number isn’t on it any where.
Click to expand...
The way you wrote it, it sounded like you rebuilt it.
Get yourself Urich's Holley 4150/4160 Carb book. Its small, cheap - especially used, and was written by a guy who was VP of Engineering at Holley back when they had a clue there. Holley uses the term 'model number' for general design type. I assume yours is 4150 or 60

The List number is on the choke tower.
upload_2020-5-25_16-43-55.png


If there is a revision, its marked like this
upload_2020-5-25_16-44-56.png


It won't always say 'List' but its the top number.
upload_2020-5-25_16-47-19.png


With the List number we can then look up the dry specs from a rebuild sheet or other source.
 
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