All this information is already all over this site in triplicate. Use the search feature. It's been beat to death. Use cooking oil in your junk. I don't care. I know what I will continue to use.
Zinc Rich Oil for Flat Tappet Cams
- Thread starter QuickDart360
- Start date
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duelingcudas
Well-Known Member
www.cam-shield.com
Add it to any motor oil. Not good for vehicles with catalytic converters
Add it to any motor oil. Not good for vehicles with catalytic converters
CarWash
Well-Known Member
Lucas Oil TB Zinc Engine Break-In Oil Additive, the best way to start off a new engine!
Grunchy
Member
I got a moderate/mild cam on my bone stock 318 (comp K20-212 with lifters & springs) and I used the break-in lubricant that came packaged with. I noticed that of all the Mobil 1 listed, the lowest amount of ZDDP was 750 ppm and most was 900 or up to 1300 for the tappet formula (1850 ppm race).
All I did was a cautious break in and I'm using plain old Pennzoil. I don't do a lot of high rpm maneuvers with high dynamic pressure which is where I think the main problem is.
Another important thing, maybe most important, is adequate oil pressure. So when I did the cam & timing chain I went ahead and put in a new oil pump at the same time, so I'm like 60+ psi cold or at anything above 1500 rpm, and as low as 25 psi if it's hot & idling at 600 rpm.
I've got an astoundingly unremarkable motor that I use to do unremarkable things, Pennzoil is probably adequate. If it's not - no big loss.
All I did was a cautious break in and I'm using plain old Pennzoil. I don't do a lot of high rpm maneuvers with high dynamic pressure which is where I think the main problem is.
Another important thing, maybe most important, is adequate oil pressure. So when I did the cam & timing chain I went ahead and put in a new oil pump at the same time, so I'm like 60+ psi cold or at anything above 1500 rpm, and as low as 25 psi if it's hot & idling at 600 rpm.
I've got an astoundingly unremarkable motor that I use to do unremarkable things, Pennzoil is probably adequate. If it's not - no big loss.
fintastic57
Member
I wonder if Pennzoil has paraffin in it like it used to have. That stuff was nasty on short trip drive applications.
It hasn't in more than twenty years.
That picture you posted demonstrates why short trip driving was considered severe service, and the recommended drain interval was 3000 miles.
Those most directly responsible for the reduction of ZDDP in motor oil are the vehicle manufacturers. They lobbied API and ILSAC to reduce the amounts of ZDDP in the newest oils certified by those organizations, because the OEMs are required by the EPA to have a catalytic convertor warranty of 8 years or 80,000 miles. As we know, the virtual elimination of flat tappet cams has drastically reduced the amount of ZDDP needed as an anti-wear additive. Therefore the OEMs don't want to be using something they see as not only unnecessary, but harmful to their bottom line.
So, it was caused by the government through their 8/80 mandate, but really pushed by the OEMs to protect their bottom line. That's it in a nutshell.
I don't like to use additives whenever possible. Chemical and petroleum engineers work very hard to come up with balanced formulas which can be upset, and made considerably less effective by the introduction of an additive solution. My oil of choice for my stock, never apart, original 340 is Rotella T6 5W-40. Synthetic, low ash, 1200-1300 ppm of ZDDP, and only a 40 weight on the hot end of the scale. Recommended by Shell for gasoline vehicles. Available at Wally World for $20/gallon. And they're the ones who send my pension check every month.
So, it was caused by the government through their 8/80 mandate, but really pushed by the OEMs to protect their bottom line. That's it in a nutshell.
I don't like to use additives whenever possible. Chemical and petroleum engineers work very hard to come up with balanced formulas which can be upset, and made considerably less effective by the introduction of an additive solution. My oil of choice for my stock, never apart, original 340 is Rotella T6 5W-40. Synthetic, low ash, 1200-1300 ppm of ZDDP, and only a 40 weight on the hot end of the scale. Recommended by Shell for gasoline vehicles. Available at Wally World for $20/gallon. And they're the ones who send my pension check every month.
See my added parentheses above around REQUIRED BY THE EPA. Nuff said. All this arguing about who or what is responsible for the reduction of ZDDP is irrelevant to the discussion here. It boils down to the EPA. The government. If the EPA did not require emissions to meet certain criteria, there would be no need to reduce ZDDP. RIGHT? SO, in the end, it is government regulation in its infinite wisdom at work here.
I’m only here for the comments, lolol! But in all seriousness, I won’t give any recommendations other than to read the tech pages on Hughes Engine’s website about flat tappet cams and break in oils and draw your own conclusions. There are also links to some charts that show recommended viscosities to bearing clearances according to block or rod material. But in all seriousness, I concur with RRR’s endorsement of Lucas hot rod oil. I am afraid that even something as simple as the proper oil has become a “get what you pay for” game at this point...
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A lot of articles say once the cam and lifters are successfully broken in, the ZDDP is not critical. I disagree, because most of the time anyone concerned with such, has a better than stock cam with higher spring pressures. I think in those instances, it is certainly beneficial to continue the use of ZDDP. I know I have and I will continue to do so, regardless of anyone else's opinion.
QuickDart360
Well-Known Member
Those articles about flat tappet cams are written by kids right out of college. Probably never new what a real hot rod is!! Especially one with a hydraulic or solid tappet cam. Their info is useless.
I tend to agree.
Usually written by reps from oil suppliers that don't have "old car oil". Northland Petroleum here in town supplies all the lubricants for John Deere tractors built here. I asked about "old car oil" and they said they may have a few old barrels in the warehouse. It has "seal swell" in it to soften seals in old engines. I didn't get into ZDDP levels. I should get ahold of Scot again and make a deal. Bottling and shipping it would be a pain though.
I like the factory owner manual reccomendation on viscosity, but it’s more of a bearing manufacturer thing after a rebuild. I have to wonder what additional additives the Mopar sperm oil additive recommended by ChryCo for severe and performance usage had. Of course, at the time, oil was still made for cars built in 1971 in 1971!
Looks like its down a little to barely 1200 ppm in the CK-4 Diesel. Probably still fine with the stock 340 cam but thought you'ld would like to know the formula was changed.
Shell Rotella T6 5W40 CJ-4/SM vs CK-4
No moly either. Although to be fair Brad Penn shows little moly in the UOAs I've had done.
and the newest 'multi-vehicle' T6 Zinc is lower than I'd like even with a stock, non-performance cam.
Shell Rotella T6 Multi-Vehicle 5W-30
From what I have been able to research at the present, the molybdenum phosphates/carbamates aren’t really the cure all that they have touted to be. It has tendency to corrode copper, oftentimes one of the components in Babbitt bearings, but even more so in bronze bushings... Still partial to Lucas, Driven, Amsoil ZDDP oils..
Even though at the present, I am getting by fine with rotella SAE 30 diesel tractor oil with a bottle of Rislone and a bottle of blue STP... I am not really testing the limits of hydraulic cam valve spring pressure either though. Other than 10:1 static compression and headers, I am a whole lot closer to stock than to “race”...
The new multi-fleet T6 5W-30 has the API SN rating, and I think they are claiming "Energy Saving" in the donut, so there's the mandated reduction of ZDDP.
The 1200-1300 ppm of ZDDP in the T6 5W-40 is a number that I got earlier this year, supposedly representing a reformulation at the same time the 5W-30 was introduced, and several months after the Blackstone report.
I used to have a logon and password to the restricted technical area of the Shell website. It was great for looking this stuff up. But, a little more than a year after retiring, they caught up to me and shut me out!
The 1200-1300 ppm of ZDDP in the T6 5W-40 is a number that I got earlier this year, supposedly representing a reformulation at the same time the 5W-30 was introduced, and several months after the Blackstone report.
I used to have a logon and password to the restricted technical area of the Shell website. It was great for looking this stuff up. But, a little more than a year after retiring, they caught up to me and shut me out!
And I am GLAD you brought up the STP. Here's another big tip. DO NOT buy the store brand STP. It comes in the same blue bottle. Same shape. Same size. It HAS ZERO ZDDP additive in it. Only the Name brand STP does......and always has. It's good stuff.
DrCharles
Well-Known Member
Any thoughts about what ppm of zinc I should use for my Mini-Express mushroom setup? I broke it in with 8 qts of straight 30 oil + a bottle of "real" ZDDP and it seems to have survived.
Springs are about 430 lb over the nose. The 1.00" lifter foot is larger than stock, but the cam lobes are actually narrower than a .904 cam (so they don't hit the adjacent lifter). So is that more pressure per unit area, less, or the same?
Springs are about 430 lb over the nose. The 1.00" lifter foot is larger than stock, but the cam lobes are actually narrower than a .904 cam (so they don't hit the adjacent lifter). So is that more pressure per unit area, less, or the same?
Wow! It’s been a while since I’ve even heard of the “Minnie Express “ package... I would imagine full contact pattern with that much over the nose pressure. If you don’t mind, what are the timing events and lift on that deal?Any thoughts about what ppm of zinc I should use for my Mini-Express mushroom setup? I broke it in with 8 qts of straight 30 oil + a bottle of "real" ZDDP and it seems to have survived.
Springs are about 430 lb over the nose. The 1.00" lifter foot is larger than stock, but the cam lobes are actually narrower than a .904 cam (so they don't hit the adjacent lifter). So is that more pressure per unit area, less, or the same?
DrCharles
Well-Known Member
According to my '82 Direct Connection catalog, it was 316 advertised duration and .654 gross lift with .024/.028 lash and a 107 centerline. They weren't using duration at .050 back then... but for a rough comparison, the more common .590 flat-tappet was 312, I believe, and the biggest .620 claimed to be 324 duration.
I had to have it lightly reground mostly to restore lobe taper since not all the lifters would spin. It is now 272@.050, .652 gross lift, .014/.014 lash according to Schneider Cams who did the work. (It's installed at 105 ICL). The cam card is at home and I'm out of town so I don't have the overlap etc. handy. Idles lumpily in my 451 at 1000-1100 rpm around 7" Hg.
Anyhow I figure the typical recommendation of 1200-1400 ppm should be OK, unless one of the few racers who have experience with this setup weighs in
I had to have it lightly reground mostly to restore lobe taper since not all the lifters would spin. It is now 272@.050, .652 gross lift, .014/.014 lash according to Schneider Cams who did the work. (It's installed at 105 ICL). The cam card is at home and I'm out of town so I don't have the overlap etc. handy. Idles lumpily in my 451 at 1000-1100 rpm around 7" Hg.
Anyhow I figure the typical recommendation of 1200-1400 ppm should be OK, unless one of the few racers who have experience with this setup weighs in
Any thoughts about what ppm of zinc I should use for my Mini-Express mushroom setup? I broke it in with 8 qts of straight 30 oil + a bottle of "real" ZDDP and it seems to have survived.
Springs are about 430 lb over the nose. The 1.00" lifter foot is larger than stock, but the cam lobes are actually narrower than a .904 cam (so they don't hit the adjacent lifter). So is that more pressure per unit area, less, or the same?
I would put the Lucas Hot Rod oil in it. Whichever weight of your choosing. 2400 PPM of ZDDP. Got any video? I'd like to hear that. My buddy @Bighead440 likes the mushroom stuff, too.
I know. There's gonna be somebody on here say "what's mushroom stuff"?
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